Musical Truth(s)

john

Member
Michael Pisaro, October 2004:

On Schoenberg and his circle though Boulez and Xenakis; Jazz from Armstrong to Coltrane; Rock n' Roll music from Presley to the Sex Pistols; Cage and his circle.

These are for the four recognizable sites within music where I can find those things which make me think a 'truth procedure' is (or was) in underway: A founding event (unforeseeable within its time); the creation of a group of 'subjects' to the truth forecasted by this event; a pursuit of the consequences of the event in its widest implications along an infinite path (i.e., a truth procedure).

There is of course nothing absolute or definitive about my list (even though over the years I have given this a lot of thought). It must be admitted that the process of nominating events is always open to debate and to verification. For us, as composers, this is something that I think we do in our work (consciously or not). We test the truths we have encountered in process of making our own work: see how far they can be extended, discover their limits (if they exist): and all of this is done, I believe, more or less intuitively (this is not the realm of logic).
What do we think of this? Would we add any? Would not most of what is talked about here fall (in a certain way) under one of these nominations?
 
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tate

Brown Sugar
john said:
Michael Pisaro, October 2004:

On Schoenberg and his circle though Boulez and Xenakis; Jazz from Armstrong to Coltrane; Rock n' Roll music from Presley to the Sex Pistols; Cage and his circle.


What do we think of this? Would we add any? Would not most of what is talked about here fall (in a certain way) under one of these nominations?

Whoa, Michael Pisaro. Brilliant fellow. He was a composition professor at my university, where as an undergraduate I studied classical guitar for a time. Now teaches at Cal Arts, I believe.

But as for the quote, I have questions. First of all, are the "four recognizable sites" here his aforementioned groupings of composers and musicians? I.e., (1) Boulez and Xenakis (2) Jazz from Armstrong to Coltrane (3) rock n' roll from Presley to the Sex Pistols (4) Cage and his circle?

If so, wouldn't one want to add, almost immediately, the hardcore continuum to this context? And what about hip-hop?

Not sure how I feel about his use of 'truth' and 'truth procedures' and 'founding event' either. Sounds like he's been reading Badiou . . . I, for one, am always skeptical when people begin to speak of the "truths we encounter in the process of making our own work," but I was trained in a different philosophical tradition, I suppose.

And what is the context of this statement, by the way? Do you have a link to the entire text? Would be very curious to read more of this.

I can tell you that Pisaro is a very, very knowledgeable composer with a deep curiosity for all forms of experimental music. He went with me and a fellow music student to see Sonic Youth on the Dirty tour, Chicago, 1993. He was a big Sonic Youth fan at the time, and said that he loved the show. :)
 

john

Member
Emails?

I've had two requests now for the article from which this is quoted... Unfortunately, I have no site of my own to ftp it up for download, however if you give me your emails I will promptly send you a PDF (just large enough that it would be inappropriate to post on a thread like this).
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
my obvious thought with one of those clusters
-- Elvis Presley to Sex Pistols

is that what he presumably regards as the culmination point, the working through to its final logical exhaustion, ie. Sex Pistols

was for postpunk itself a founding event on a Presley-like scale, that led to "the creation of a group of 'subjects' to the truth forecasted by this event" and who then embarked on "the pursuit of the consequences of the event in its widest implications along an infinite path" -- the whole postpunk diaspora

(there's a guy called James Miller, contemporary of greil marcus, who wrote a whole book Flowers in the Dustbin: The Rise of Rock and Roll, 1947-1977 -- k that goes from early rock'n'roll to the Pistols, and ends in 77, for him it's all repetition, recycling, and working through of permutations on established tropes after punk -- seems to be a bit of a babyboomer mindset!)

i wonder what the founding event would be with rave/hardcore... the first acid house records arriving in the UK (i think that's the dawn of hardcore in the sense of it being manic sexless noise)
... or maybe something non-sonic: the arrival of E

both would seem to be equivalent to a eureka, behold the Truth moment, and an induction/initiation encouter that people experienced at different points over the next five, ten years.... and probably still do experience

the word 'truth' seems a bit loaded though, a bit dry... is music ever true exactly?
 
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hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
blissblogger said:
my obvious thought with one of those clusters
-- Elvis Presley to Sex Pistols
is that what he presumably regards as the culmination point, the working through to its final logical exhaustion, ie. Sex Pistols
A rock history that has punk as the culmination of "the consequences of the event in its widest implications", can't be a history including prog rock, kraut rock or most psychedelia. It must be the history of just one aspect of rock (the rockist essence?), an aspect so specific, that prog and kraut and psych simply doesn't take part at all. Because if you first accept that rock can develop that far and still be rock, punk is clearly degeneration rather than further development. Such a history have obviously no room for post punk either.

blissblogger said:
i wonder what the founding event would be with rave/hardcore... the first acid house records arriving in the UK (i think that's the dawn of hardcore in the sense of it being manic sexless noise)
I think you're on the right track, but it seems a little too anglo-centric to me. I'd say the founding event would be when acid house reached the many pockets of proto-rave and proto-rave producers all over europe. When people previously making hip hop/electro in england, EBM/electro in germany and benelux, and italo disco/cosmic in southern europe, suddenly realized that here was a scene developing that really needed new records, and by altering their own stylistic starting points slightly towards house, they could be part of it! They wanted to have a piece of the cake, but also wanted to include some of the elements they loved in music they had previously made. You could say acid house was a kind of weird radiation that hit the big pan-european electronic music genepool, resulting lots and lots of amazing mutations in a very short time.

Off course, you could also just say that the founding event was Trans Europe Express reaching Bronx.
 

blissblogger

Well-known member
hamarplazt said:
I think you're on the right track, but it seems a little too anglo-centric to me. I'd say the founding event would be when acid house reached the many pockets of proto-rave and proto-rave producers all over europe. .

you are quite right, it was Europe wide.

and the founding event was like a three way thing
--the acid sound
-- the drug
-- the creation of a new kind of dancing space (the megawarehouse space, the outdoor rave) that shifted it from old nightclub-as-incrowd ethos to raving-massive
 
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