or the dearth of black british music in the charts, at least
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,5384219-103425,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,5384219-103425,00.html
guardian article on the death of british black music
- Thread starter gumdrops
- Start date
Hmm I agree with the points about sustainability but the point about "black music fans' objection to selling out" along with the cited examples of artists not being supported quickly tells me the author has missed the point - maybe if the black/inner city music being signed and pushed by majors wasn't so depressingly dire the charts (especially the album charts) might be a better refelction of who is making most exciting music in Britian is being made.
People shouldn't be asking "why are there so many white indie bands in the charts", they should be asking: "why aren't Ruff Sqwad on TV spitting 'Anna' rather than fucking Shystie?"
People shouldn't be asking "why are there so many white indie bands in the charts", they should be asking: "why aren't Ruff Sqwad on TV spitting 'Anna' rather than fucking Shystie?"
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Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
I got as far as "I was into M people" and closed the page down...
the undisputed truth
Banned
uh yeah, for what it's worth shit ain't that much different here...
...except we have a gov't funding scheme to help promote new artists, make videos and help get them on the broadcast networks
the problem there is the crap format of the broadcasters wanting clean cut pop idol pornstars and gangsta clones, angsty guitar chix and pasty faced guitar bands all of which are here today gone tomorrow only to be replaced by the next batch of hopeful young wannabees...
...and yeah it helps (alot) if you're white
there must be some A&R formula that says we must have so many acts representative of the styles mentioned above before we can have a token person of colour that might slip in on the art/culture ticket...
Having said that though if by chance an act of colour does slip in by public demand and hard graft then they automatically get embraced by the powers that be, get showered with retrospective praise and lauded as saviours of art culture and music
Electronica in NZ doesn't get a look in unless you've had some success overseas already.
True talent. I would like to think will always shine through but polishing the turd seems to be the norm. The funny thing there is most of the truly talented people come loaded with baggage
To sum it up here is a quote I made up...
You can't polish a greasy turd but you can mould it into something that doen't look like turd. Chances are it'll still stink though but in this polluted world it's just another stench you get used to breathing
...except we have a gov't funding scheme to help promote new artists, make videos and help get them on the broadcast networks
the problem there is the crap format of the broadcasters wanting clean cut pop idol pornstars and gangsta clones, angsty guitar chix and pasty faced guitar bands all of which are here today gone tomorrow only to be replaced by the next batch of hopeful young wannabees...
...and yeah it helps (alot) if you're white
there must be some A&R formula that says we must have so many acts representative of the styles mentioned above before we can have a token person of colour that might slip in on the art/culture ticket...
Having said that though if by chance an act of colour does slip in by public demand and hard graft then they automatically get embraced by the powers that be, get showered with retrospective praise and lauded as saviours of art culture and music
Electronica in NZ doesn't get a look in unless you've had some success overseas already.
True talent. I would like to think will always shine through but polishing the turd seems to be the norm. The funny thing there is most of the truly talented people come loaded with baggage
To sum it up here is a quote I made up...
You can't polish a greasy turd but you can mould it into something that doen't look like turd. Chances are it'll still stink though but in this polluted world it's just another stench you get used to breathing
Raw Patrick
Well-known member
The problem with that article is that just about every point about how the industry works could be applied to indie, or white (as the terms are used fairly interchangably throughout) music as well. Tons of post-Doherty Libertines-alike bands have been quietly dropped for example. Or their singers have been sent into the Big Brother house to avoid it (maybe Lethal Bizzle should go in there next time.)
the undisputed truth
Banned
^^^yeah and they got there by constant gigging for sometimes stuff all money and built up an underground following...
...the powers that be didn't show them no love until they had made it on their own terms then suddenly they're the industry's little darlings, same as dawnraid
Melchior...do you follow the funding decisions for NZ on Air and look at how disproportinate they are to crap alternative indy bands and pretty, angsty female guitarists despite hiphop and electronica being the most popular forms of music around ???
that's the remnant of the old boys indy band network still running game behind the scenes...
...and let's not forget NZ invented popstars which morphed into popidol and look at all the shit careers that have come through that, that never lasted more than the week their singles come out in
perfectly disposable pop idols to market and distract the masses from what's truly going on, inoffensive filler between the ads cos thats what pays their salaries
If grime is dire street music reflecting the concerns of the lower classes then is it any wonder the middle class buying demographic won't have it marketed to them cos they prolly don't even want to see it, let alone hear about it and the A&R people know this
If however it is done by white middle class and spoonfed back to them then they will at least identify with it
truth is poor people don't buy music cos they have to spend it on food and stuff so they DL it for free on the net. How do you change that ???
Maybe I'm way off cos i just don't get brit pop and indy guitar stuff...dunno eh ???
...the powers that be didn't show them no love until they had made it on their own terms then suddenly they're the industry's little darlings, same as dawnraid
Melchior...do you follow the funding decisions for NZ on Air and look at how disproportinate they are to crap alternative indy bands and pretty, angsty female guitarists despite hiphop and electronica being the most popular forms of music around ???
that's the remnant of the old boys indy band network still running game behind the scenes...
...and let's not forget NZ invented popstars which morphed into popidol and look at all the shit careers that have come through that, that never lasted more than the week their singles come out in
perfectly disposable pop idols to market and distract the masses from what's truly going on, inoffensive filler between the ads cos thats what pays their salaries
If grime is dire street music reflecting the concerns of the lower classes then is it any wonder the middle class buying demographic won't have it marketed to them cos they prolly don't even want to see it, let alone hear about it and the A&R people know this
If however it is done by white middle class and spoonfed back to them then they will at least identify with it
truth is poor people don't buy music cos they have to spend it on food and stuff so they DL it for free on the net. How do you change that ???
Maybe I'm way off cos i just don't get brit pop and indy guitar stuff...dunno eh ???
qwerty south
no use for a witticism
there's an interview on blade691.com where hh producer baby j calls his songs that he produced for skinnyman 'black music'. they are both white as a polo mint.
maybe he is referring to the music he samples to make the songs (sly and the family stone for 'no big thing') and black drummers' beats and hits?
maybe he is referring to the music he samples to make the songs (sly and the family stone for 'no big thing') and black drummers' beats and hits?
bassnation
the abyss
Raw Patrick said:
not particularly addressed to you patrick, but i have some questions.
i thought we agreed that all popular music is "black" in a recent thread. are you telling me theres now such a thing as "white" music which is essentially 5th generation rock n roll?
i understood that if a black musician had been involved in any capacity down the line, the music could never be "white" no matter how many white musicians start playing it.
does this rule no longer apply if the given music is cringingly unhip like the current indie crop?
aren't we guilty of changing the rules to suit whatever argument is being made at the time, to exclude music we don't like and to confer hipness on the music that we do?
HELL_SD said:
Nah man, all I'm saying is that you can make it as a person of colour in NZ music. It's not that NZ on Air likes indy rock anymore than you, but any funding body favours the educated middle class that can write applications.
I agree with you on pretty much everything, but the most successful musicians in NZ recently have been non-white, regardless of silly NZ on Air funding.
for the sake of argument, maybe there isnt black british music in the charts cos a lot of it is so fucking shit? dont get me wrong, im a big champion of the stuff and i wish more people knew about spacek or nicolette or recognised wiley as a genius producer, but a lot of british stuff is just pale imitations of the american stuff. not all of it, im perhaps using too broad a brush here, but theres a huge amount of crap that sounds like its taking all the worst cues from whats coming out of the US. so maybe, you could argue that its not indie rock thats harming or marginalising british black music, its rubbish music and its the poor standards of much of whats coming out of the states these days. im sure people will disagree and say that hip hop and R&B has never been in a better state, but id have to say otherwise...
but this article is basically levelled at the industry, and its obvious the british industry doesnt know what to do with its best 'urban' talents like dynamite, kano etc - it either wants to push them right into the pop market or let them wither away, there isnt enough of a core market being sustained here. its either 'pop' or 'die'. and maybe if these acts were developed better and allowed a bit of a longer shelf life and if the A&Rs didnt have their eye on america all the time and look for equivalents of that, there might be some benefical feedback in terms of if a few uk artists do well, more might come up in the ranks which could lead to longevity for everyone which would let labels have more confidence in the saleability of brit-black music. but maybe there isnt enough of a core consumer market to sustain releases aimed at that 'core' in this country. i dont know. theres such little faith in trying it all out, and such fragile testing conditions for the success rate, im not sure were ever going to know. theres plenty of broken beat guys that could maybe do well if developed a bit but a lot of them arent the finished article in terms of songs (same thing for grime, even more so) so im guessing labels dont want to take a chance.
one thing that bothered me about this article though was that it just took a broad sweeping general view of black music - as if the people into jamelia are also gonna like dizzee. well that and the fact she admitted to liking m- people. her taste is definitely suspect.
and anyway, people know where to go for underground (black or otherwise) music, so who cares about the charts
i like bhangra but its not like im expecting it to get in the pop charts. it would be nice but what can you do? the author says indie never spoke to her as the bands didnt look like her and she hated the music, so id imagine its the same scenario for the majority white audience of the uk as well. they want people who look like them.
but this article is basically levelled at the industry, and its obvious the british industry doesnt know what to do with its best 'urban' talents like dynamite, kano etc - it either wants to push them right into the pop market or let them wither away, there isnt enough of a core market being sustained here. its either 'pop' or 'die'. and maybe if these acts were developed better and allowed a bit of a longer shelf life and if the A&Rs didnt have their eye on america all the time and look for equivalents of that, there might be some benefical feedback in terms of if a few uk artists do well, more might come up in the ranks which could lead to longevity for everyone which would let labels have more confidence in the saleability of brit-black music. but maybe there isnt enough of a core consumer market to sustain releases aimed at that 'core' in this country. i dont know. theres such little faith in trying it all out, and such fragile testing conditions for the success rate, im not sure were ever going to know. theres plenty of broken beat guys that could maybe do well if developed a bit but a lot of them arent the finished article in terms of songs (same thing for grime, even more so) so im guessing labels dont want to take a chance.
one thing that bothered me about this article though was that it just took a broad sweeping general view of black music - as if the people into jamelia are also gonna like dizzee. well that and the fact she admitted to liking m- people. her taste is definitely suspect.
and anyway, people know where to go for underground (black or otherwise) music, so who cares about the charts
i like bhangra but its not like im expecting it to get in the pop charts. it would be nice but what can you do? the author says indie never spoke to her as the bands didnt look like her and she hated the music, so id imagine its the same scenario for the majority white audience of the uk as well. they want people who look like them.
D
droid
Guest
Id like to add my voice to the chorus of disbelief that someone who likes M-people could possibly have any vaild opinions about music!
M-people for fucks sake!
M-people for fucks sake!
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Well, there were a lot of complaints about the absence of successful indie bands. It bothers me a bit when black / white and indie / urban are used as equivalent divisions, but there is a pretty noticeable correlation...blunt said:But then, I don't recall seeing many articles bemoaning the absence of white faces in the charts during the late 90s / early 00s, when 'urban' sounds were comparitively in vogue