Sleepwalking into segregation?

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worrior

Well-known member
Something that’s been getting on my goat this year is the often uncritical defining of musical forms by colour. Take Blissblogger recentlyon this board equating nu-Britrock and grime as ‘white and black versions of the same landscape’ or Woebot on his blog today praising ‘bohemians not cleaving to movements, feebly trailing behind black music’ - with the implicit suggestion that bohemians can’t be black. Obviously there is a lot of substance to such a divide but there are important exceptions (David Narcizo, Kele Okereke and Gary Powell in indie rock for example). To me it shuts down possibilities and contradicts these writers’ positionings. Indeed, some of my favourite music (eg Tricky, The Specials, AR Kane, the Slits, TV on the Radio) problematises and plays on these racial categorisations.

Is this being too sensitive? Do we need divides to stop things like grindie? Is it more a class thing? (like the fact that bloke from the Ordinary Boys is the grandson of landed aristocracy).
 
Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
worrior said:
Is this being too sensitive? Do we need divides to stop things like grindie? Is it more a class thing?
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To be honest, the use of class is a bit iffy too - I'm not quite sure how usefully a three way split devised in the 19th century to divide people into landed gentry, people who own their own businesses and people who work for people who own their own businesses really holds up in the 21st century...
 
T

the undisputed truth

Banned
they even exported that shit to the far flung corners...

...yeah, we got our old boy networks over here too don't you worry

not like you guys got a monopoly though it's insidious to most ethnicities...

...indian castes for example and yes even in traditional polynesian society we had hierarchies based on landed gentry with the only way up being to prove yourself in battle and marry rich but likewise many marriages were seals to forge alliances
 
Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Blackdown said:
class divisions still run through pretty much all of society in the UK, don't be fooled!
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Yeah, but there's a lot more complexity to it than there used to be - the classes are less stable and much less homogeneous than they used to be, so while it still makes sense to talk about the existence of working, middle, and upper classes, it gets a bit dodgy when you start to generalise too much based on them.
 
B

bassnation

the abyss
Slothrop said:
Yeah, but there's a lot more complexity to it than there used to be - the classes are less stable and much less homogeneous than they used to be, so while it still makes sense to talk about the existence of working, middle, and upper classes, it gets a bit dodgy when you start to generalise too much based on them.
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we've even come up with a new one - the underclass. the last remaining group in society that its still acceptable to pour venomous scorn on and laugh at. anyone see prince william in his chav outfit? disgraceful.
 
Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
bassnation said:
we've even come up with a new one - the underclass. the last remaining group in society that its still acceptable to pour venomous scorn on and laugh at. anyone see prince william in his chav outfit? disgraceful.
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Laying into the middle class is still pretty acceptable too... but that's alright because they're all couscous munching guardian readers. But yeah, the way that the term 'chav' has become the acceptable if not laudable face of unpleasant prejudice is fucking embarrasing. It's one thing when it's youth tribes among schoolkids (I grew up in kent, where it was just the latest permutation of teenage factionalism), it's another when it's middle aged TV presenters or members of the royal family having a kick at a stereotype of a group of people who they've never come into contact with anyway.
 
S

stelfox

Beast of Burden
hear hear. i was absolutely apalled by that picture.
funny thing was that i find that about a million times more offensive than harry dressing up as a nazi, but very little was said about it in the media, other than "oh what a wag". probably because the media is populkated with people clued up enough to realise that nazism isn't really that funny, but so cushioned and disconnected from the lives of the real people they serve to understand that class prejudice is just as bad.
seriously, that kind of shit is rife in this industry and it makes me sick.
still, it's not going to get very far if this is just going to be another case of me and marc agreeing with each other on this point!
 
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bassnation

the abyss
Slothrop said:
Laying into the middle class is still pretty acceptable too... but that's alright because they're all couscous munching guardian readers.
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fair point - after all, no-one can help the circumstances they were born into - respect cuts both ways.
 
HMGovt’s Glorious Return!

HMGovt’s Glorious Return!

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bassnation said:
we've even come up with a new one - the underclass. the last remaining group in society that its still acceptable to pour venomous scorn on and laugh at. anyone see prince william in his chav outfit? disgraceful.
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Is it any worse than countless London media cuntlets slumming it in East London, boring everyone on here with stories about derelict pubs and endless eulogies to stagnant canals, graffiti and seagull shit? Talk about class tourism. We all know mummy and daddy have a nice walled farm in the cotswolds and a little pad in the dordogne.
 
S

stelfox

Beast of Burden
bassnation said:
fair point - after all, no-one can help the circumstances they were born into - respect cuts both ways.
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well, not so fair, really.
respect is one thing but again, at the root of this is that old thing that turns prejudice into active oppression: power.
the middle class is rarely hurt by people calling them clueless, effete, boring or whatever, simply because they hold the power that privilege and affluence bring.
(this is all a huge generalisation, i know, but broadly true).
oppression can only be achieved with the complicity of society and a structure that allows it and, like it or not, oppresion is exactly what it is when groups of well-off educated people continually castigate, ridicule and scapoegoat a less fortunate section of society.
and as for the royal family doing it, shame on them. the people they so obviously despise are not too vulgar to take money from, are they?
 
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T

Tim F

Well-known member
I think the original post in this thread misunderstands both quotes!

Simon was complaining about the increasing polarisation between "black" and "white" music and saying this is a bad thing for music.

Matt was saying that bohemians should feel free to mix up different styles of music, white or black, without feeling the (probably class more than race) anxiety that it's not their place to do so.

So both quotes are actually in effect impliedly supporting your miniature canon of "some of my favourite music (eg Tricky, The Specials, AR Kane, the Slits, TV on the Radio)" which "problematises and plays on these racial categorisations."
 
P

peripheral

Active member
stelfox said:
well, not so fair, really.
respect is one thing but again, at the root of this is that old thing that turns prejudice into active oppression: power.
the middle class is rarely hurt by people calling them clueless, effete, boring or whatever, simply because they hold the power that privilege and affluence bring.
(this is all a huge generalisation, i know, but broadly true).
oppression can only be achieved with the complicity of society and a structure that allows it and, like it or not, oppresion is exactly what it is when groups of well-off educated people continually castigate, ridicule and scapoegoat a less fortunate section of society.
and as for the royal family doing it, shame on them. the people they so obviously despise are not too vulgar to take money from, are they?
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definitely power is what makes ridiculing the lower classes oppressive, as opposed to good, clean fun (this is one - amongst many others - reason why lil britain is in NO way funny). there are historical precedents for this kind of thing - for 'binge drinking' sub 'gin panic' etc. will's party get-up and similar shenanigans from eton et al aren't really too surprising when thought of as a natural progression...
 
W

worrior

Well-known member
Tim F said:
I think the original post in this thread misunderstands both quotes!

Simon was complaining about the increasing polarisation between "black" and "white" music and saying this is a bad thing for music.
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Thanks for this, I agree wholeheartedly with Simon's critique of the current batch of neopostpunkers who fail to adequately engage with contemporary black musical forms (or often anything before 1984 for that matter). But sometimes the generalised labelling of indie music as 'white' or grime as 'black' seems to reinforce existing polarisations, imagined or otherwise. A minor gripe perhaps, but born of frustration with recent music directions.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Will's party get-up and similar shenanigans from Eton et al aren't really too surprising when thought of as a natural progression..."
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As well as being a natural historical progression it is also a natural progression from Will's upbringing, education, the way he has been isolated from normality etc. I just feel very sorry for the guy really - I would hate to have his life.
 
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