Israel and Jewish Facts ?

mms

sometimes
got this this morning thru my email
needs teasing apart i think:

ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS

1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;

2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS"
IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;

3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;

4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 B.C. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;

5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;

6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;

7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MUHAMMAD NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;

8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM;

9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;

10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;

11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES:

12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGES WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CO-RELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL, A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY;

13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;

14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;

15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALISED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS; 16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL;

18. THE U.N WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM. IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.
 
D

droid

Guest
Where to start?


Image and reality of the Palestine/Israeli conflict by Norman Finkelstein covers some of the more pervasive myths as propgated in 'Of Time Immemorial' and rehashed ad nauseum by the likes of Alan Dershowitz.

The Gun and the Olive branch by David Hirst looks at the broader issues and some of the root causes of the conflict,

A History of Modern Palestine : One Land, Two Peoples by Ilan Pappe is fairly mild mannered attempt to tell both sides of the story, but falls short due to some factual ambiguities. Still worth a read.

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949

Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956: Arab Infiltration, Israeli Retaliation, and the Countdown to the Suez War

Israel's Secret Wars: A History of Israel's Intelligence Service (details Mossad's bombing of Synagogues in Baghdad amongst other things)

by Benny Morris (Israel's most 'important' historian), These books rip apart many of the myths you mention and replaces them with benevolent intentions. All very good reads though, more so as Morris is a well respected member of Israel's academic establishment.

Pity The Nation, Robert Fisk's oft misrepresented tome on Lebanon in which features multiple interviews with original refugees from 1948, now resident in Labanon, as well as shocking first hand accounts of the Phalangist massacres during the Israeli invasion.

And of course:

Middle East Illusions: Including Peace in the Middle East? : Reflections on Justice and Nationhood

The Fateful triangle: the United States, Israel, and the Palestinians

by Chomsky. The first is a collection of essays from the 70s, and the second an authorative tome which looks at Israel's recent history, the geo-political motivations for Washingtons continued support, media treatment of the conflict and prospects for peace. A bit of a slog but worth it.


Needless to say, theres no short answer to that email (except 'piss off' ;) ).
 

ifp

Well-known member
not going to go throught the whole thing because theres a lot of stuff i can't rebuke with any authority on the subject, but

1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;

"states" did not exists at that time in the modern sense. nation states are a product of the enlightenment from C17th onwwards

6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;

sceptical. i don't have much knowledge of either text, but the way the statement is phrased makes me think that it might be referred to by an arabic name or by euphemism ("holy city" etc)

8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM;

irrelevant. the fact that palestinians are largely muslim and therefore pray towards mecca does not mean that jerusalem is not important to palestinias, or even to muslims. According to Tanya Reinhart, "Haram al Sharif is the site from which the Prophet Mohammed ascended to heaven, and is considered the third holiest site of the world's Muslim community."

9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;

10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;

11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES:

These points seems self-defeating. If virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to leave trough fear, is it not believable that the Palestinians who fled in 1948 also did so through fear of Israeli soldiers (leaving aside how they managed to come up with the 68% figure)? Whoever wrote this also constantly uses Arabs and Palestinians as the same term. Palestinians are Arabs, not all Arabs are Palestinians and not all arabs are fighting in Palestine. Considering the current population of Palestinians is, 50 years later, is somewhere around 3m, 630,000 is a very significant number.

13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;

Palestine is not a Muslim country, it is secular. To say that Arab countries started all the wars against Israel is ridiculous. (for reasons: Avi Shlaim - The Iron Wall, a study of Israeli foreign policy)

14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;

fatah does not still call for the destruction of israel. hamas recently accepted israel's right to exist, althoug admittedly has not changed its constitution. israel has not ceded most of the west bank gaza strip. they are both occupied by the idf (even after the "withdrawl") and the west bank contains large numbers of israeli settlers.

15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALISED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS; 16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL;

i think a palestinian would find it extremely difficult to visit al aqsa mosqe, regardless of what te law says in theory (and im doubtful even about that)

if anyone cares anyting about the above, i'd recommend Tanya Reinhart - Israel/Palestine.
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
Palestine is not a Muslim country, it is secular. To say that Arab countries started all the wars against Israel is ridiculous. (for reasons: Avi Shlaim - The Iron Wall, a study of Israeli foreign policy)

Palestine actually isn't even a country. And um isn't Hamas some sort of offshoot of Irish Secular Socialism?

And Droid, have you actually read all those books? And if yes, are you some sort of Middle East academic?
 
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Buick6

too punk to drunk
9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;

10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;

11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES:

12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGES WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CO-RELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL, A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY;

13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;

9. Is sorta true, though debatable how many were actually 'pushed'. 10-13 is all true despite what most of you flaming-fuckheads accept as truth. I can say that most of the the rest are righteous Jewish lies just to even out the Muslim and Irish 'truths'. ;)
 
D

droid

Guest
Yes I have read them, I wouldnt be recommending them otherwise, and no, Im not an academic (as if), I just like to know whats going on in the world (unlike yourself). The majority of these books are available in most bookshops, and I got most of them in secondhand stores.

A few others id add to the list:

'Sharon and my mother in law' - Suad Amiry

"Surprisingly funny, and refreshingly different from any other writings on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Sharon and My Mother-in-Law, describes Suad Amiry's experience of living on the West Bank from the early eighties to the present. Amiry tells us about the life and gossip of her neighbourhood in Ramallah, her moving family history and the struggle to live a normal life in an insane situation; from the impossibility of acquiring gas masks during the first Gulf War to her dog acquiring a Jerusalem Passport when thousands of Palestinians couldn't."

http://www.granta.com/shop/product?usca_p=t&product_id=2180

'The great war for civiliasation' - Robert Fisk.

Offers an historical perspective on western involvement in the middle east along with first hand accounts of the Iran/Iraq war. A fascinating read, and claims of historical inaccuracy have been ridiculously exaggerated by the usual critics.

"The Holocaust Industry" + "Beyond Chutzpah"

Finkelsein's contentious works on Israel's manipulation of the memory of the holocaust for political gain, and his more recent analysis of the methods of prominent pro-Israeli academics in the US.. Like all his work its extremely thorough and well-researched.

"One Palestine Complete" - Tom Segev

Surprisingly easy to read tome covering the mandate period of Palestine, using the diaries of Jewish immigrants,as a prime source. Full of interesting facts and historical irony.

"A savage War of peace" - Alistar Horne

Not directly related to israel/palestine, but a useful historical insight into occupation and resistance in the region. Very dry and old skool though.

'Peace And Its Discontents: Essays on Palestine in the Middle East Peace Process' - Edward Said

Essential, like nearly everythig the man has written.

BTW - Why dont you cut out the 'Irish' bullshit? Its obvious you dont have a clue about the history of Israel, nor are you at all interested in learning. if you even bothered to look at the list of authors that ive listed youll see that none of them are Irish, or Muslim , and most of them are Jewish!

But then what do you care? Facts just get in the way of lazy and cretinous accusation of anti-semetism and nazi-ism dont they? it would be far to much hassle to actually research the facts wouldnt it? And why bother, as we all just want "to finish the job hitler started" anyway?

You are pathetic and deeply confused on this issue Buick. Try putting your brain in gear before opening your big mouth for once. If thats possible that is...
 

ifp

Well-known member
Palestine actually isn't even a country. And um isn't Hamas some sort of offshoot of Irish Secular Socialism?

areas underthe "control" of the palestinian authority are technically under palestinian sovereignty, and i'm pretty sure the palestinian state is enshrined in some un resolutions
 

zhao

there are no accidents
maybe this is in poor taste given the seriousness of this topic (or worse, add fuel to you-know-who's accusations of anti-semitism), but fuck it:

An Israeli recently arrives at London's Heathrow airport. As he fills out a form, the customs officer asks him: "Occupation?" The Israeli promptly replies: "No, just visiting!"

buda bump
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
It's a interesting but potent situation. People give Arabs dirty looks and accuse them all of being terrorists, especially Arab women. But like the guy said Froomer-Jews get just the same stick as the Arabs. The Jews are still persecuted and picked on in the street just like they have always been no less, the grandest irony is the 'intellectual' class are pushing it against the Jews, the 'new' upwardly mobile 'working class' against the A-rabs.
 

sufi

lala
ifp said:
i think a palestinian would find it extremely difficult to visit al aqsa mosqe, regardless of what te law says in theory (and im doubtful even about that)
not sure that this is true actually,
when i visited i met a most personable old afghani bloke from cheltenham who explained to me in a thick cotswold accent about his thikr and how choofed he was to be back in alquds, as it was friday he was allowed in i wasn't, in these parts everybody is somebody's unbeleiver
whharam.jpg
In this timeless land, there are as many graves as there are people. And if the ground is not covered with the tombs of Sahabis, saints or Prophets, it is redolent with the blood of martyrs, and resonant with the screams of the faithless in their barzakh - the realm between the grave and the resurrection.
the haram-asharif mountain on which alaqsa mosque is built in is probably the most hotly contested piece of space on the planet, allocated inch by inch horizontally and vertically on a strict timetable to different sects, religions and denominations... the blizzard of different names and significances of the place are characteristic of the whole region, where claims and counter-claims go back through the ages, just super-condensed into a small area compressed the middle of the dense old town of jerusalem the thickest psycho-topography on the planet, the original garden of eden, site of the burning bush, and mohamed's miraculous overnight hijra with alburaq, the millenarians reckon that when this incarnation of the temple is destroyed it will herald the last days - many forces seem to be working hard to achieve this end
burak.jpg
in arabic, al-quds, the centre, the omphalous, the top of the hill itself is so holy to jews that most of them are actually forbidden to visit. if the labyrinth of metal detectors and heavily armed security checkpoints run by the various different rival tribes can be penetrated, christians and tourists may come and go pretty much as they please around the area, although they are not allowed to enter or even to lay a finger on the dome itself or to view the actual rock (meterorite? adam's apple?) around which it is built, the hill is run by a committee of muslims, the waqf & the gates are closed to all except muslims at prayer times - so when sharon decided to visit, the 2nd intifada kicked off,
oldcity01a.jpg
the west side of the hill is the wailing wall, the wall of the earliest remaining jewish temple (altho some dispute this) and is , i think closed to muslims/arabs, and there are many various tunnels, crypts, csiterns and voids honeycombing beneath the mountain, some reaching far under the monuments, some ancient, some modern, some undermining and causing crumbling, full of dead crusaders, millennarian archaeologiosts and burrowing religious zealots, even the spoil of these excavations is contested - there is very little archaeological evidence from the jewish era in jerusalem so the redactionists and reactionaries are all accusing each other of revisionism...
1world.gif
all this info is not juju - it is readily available on wikipedia to those who wish to understand rather than slag on another off
 

zhao

there are no accidents
very interesting stuff Sufi. thanks for dropping of knowledge.

on a different but related note, I wonder what John Zorn's official position on Zionism and the current conflict is? anyone heard him say anything?
 

Buick6

too punk to drunk
He'd be totally pro-self-defense against terrorists that don't drop warning leaflets.

He's a froomer so he'd probably be pretty right-wing.
 

Beckett

New member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifp
i think a palestinian would find it extremely difficult to visit al aqsa mosqe, regardless of what te law says in theory (and im doubtful even about that)
not sure that this is true actually,
when i visited i met a most personable old afghani bloke from cheltenham who explained to me in a thick cotswold accent about his thikr and how choofed he was to be back in alquds, as it was friday he was allowed in i wasn't, in these parts everybody is somebody's unbeleiver

West Bank/Gaza residents find it extremely difficult to visit Jerusalem at all, although once in visiting the holy sites should not be a problem. When I visited in August there was a total closure on the West Bank and theoretically no-one was allowed in for any purpose.
 
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