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Woebot
24-05-2006, 11:29 AM
...weeeeeeel, except I'm not because I don't smoke weed.

In case you're interested I haven't smoked marijuana or tobacco for nearly 10 years (since October 18th 1996). I also haven't drunk any Tea or Coffee. My weakness is the occasional beer, I'd reckon it averages at about one pint a week, with a binge about 3 times a year.

But I caught your attention right!

-

I am a father however. Being a father is exceptionally hard work if you want to do it properly. I loved my Dad very much, and I miss him enormously, but he came from a stiff Upper-class tradition of rearing children. I was bought up by nannies and sent away to boarding school aged 7. Therefore bringing up my own children, something I approach on principle as something which I *have* to do properly if I'm not going to pass on the the wreck of my family's trauma onto another generation, doesn't come at all naturally to me. I have to really work at it, but over the past five years I've learnt a huge amount from my wife (who is a most devoted mother) and have grown exceptionally close to my babies.

What do I mean by work? Well for the past five years I am usually woken around five in the morning and handed my youngest child who I look after for anything up to 3 hours, though usually between an hour and a half to two hours. This is to give my wife a well-earned rest from her nights travails. Children don't just sleep automatically. In my experience people who tell you their children "just sleep" are liars or believe in ignoring the child cries at night. Obviously there are genuine exceptions to this rule, but for instance when my mother tells me I "just slept" as a child I roll my eyes.

Then, before getting the children up and dressed, which can take anything up to an hour, I will cook my son risotto for his lunch and tea. My little boy likes wild mushroom risotto! I know it's insane. But I chop onions and bacon and make him this every day. I also have to make my daughter's lunch for nursery. For the past year and half this has been Pesto Pasta, though recently we have weaned her onto ham sandwiches. I then usually rush off to work while my wife takes my little girl to nursery. Despite the fact that every other parent will leave their child there untill 3.30pm, some mothers palming their children off onto daycare workers or other mothers until 6pm, my wife insists on collecting my girl at 1.30pm, as she believes otherwise her day would be too long, and she would be worn out.

Obviously my life would be considerably less stressful if we had another income, if my wife was working. Fortunately because I bought the house where I live for a song ten years ago our mortgage isnt too crippling and we can afford to have her concentrate on looking after the children, something which she does extremely actively. Every day without fail she will take them somewhere, parks, community music projects, to the swimming pool, the zoo, the aquarium, (yearly passes rule). She cooks them both tea every day at 4.30pm on the dot. Of course my wife could go to work and hire childcare like many mothers do, some by choice (gotta be a partner etc), others through necessity, but childcare is expensive....

When I get home from work at 7pm we then have the chore of bathing them and putting them to bed. I read to my little boy and she settles my daughter then she will settle him to sleep. At the end of the day this is an exhausting adjunct. It's fun, but it's one of those things that's only fun while you're doing it (ie something you can dread or try to shirk) We'll usually have about an hour to ourselves (I sometimes stay up later desperate to get some time for my own projects) before collapsing with sheer exhaustion.

I love my children to bits, but ensuring they are happy and properly cared-for (no mention of the perpetual curve-ball of sickness, children are always sick) is an enormous sacrifice, one which you only undertake out of love. Love, that's no trivial emotion that can be ridiculed. Unlike other commentators, my problem with parents is not that they deign to soil the planet with their children, but that they fail to look after their children properly. As far as I'm concerned that is *the only* issue. It's a task I worry myself about failing at constantly, but sure as night turns into day a loved and well-looked after child will grow into a happy, well-balanced and loving adult not prey to mental illness, emotional dysfunctionality and violence. And money or class has nothing whatsoever to do it, as the only measure of this is the time and energy you're capable of providing. Many Mum's I know have to (or choose to) work for instance, are single, and still manage to bring up the children well. My wife's mother worked and she was an exceptionally caring mother.

I strongly believe that people who criticise parents qua parents are missing the boat entirely. They confuse the social mores of middle-england and Sunday paper lifestyle culture (when have I ever had the time to read a Sunday paper?!?!?) for the a "culture of parenthood" There is no such thing as culture of parenthhod. People who criticise parents just for being parents are mean-sprited bigots who don't have the slightest clue about which they talking. Certainly they'd never have the mettle or infinite patience to bring up children themselves (and no I'm not talking about looking after their cute nephews for half an hour). Sometimes they seem to convince themselves (sighs) that people believe they have the god-given right to bear children, I don't know where this illusory belief materialises from, almost certainly paranoid fantasies of exclusion. Certainly they seem to theorise from a position of their own non-existence. Were they not children themselves once?

-

To return to my original point, no I don't take drugs. Actually I think I'd struggle to do a proper job as a father if i did. But then I don't have the constitution (am weedy) to manage it while I know some do. Actually I'm envious of those people who manage to enjoy a casual spliff while still bringing up children, though (I'll have to be honest) when it comes to anything stronger I start getting sceptical.

Buick6
24-05-2006, 11:54 AM
Just coz you have kids doesn't mean you can't stop being a hedonist. It hasn't stopped me. You just have to plan your time more and negotiate with yr missuses. Anyway, kids are more fun than drugs, coz drugs don't give you love.

Grievous Angel
24-05-2006, 12:15 PM
Terrific post Matt.

I do the weekday early shifts as well, which is a routine of breakfast followed by extended snuggling with the boys. I savour lie ins - yet rarely enjoy them unless I've been out seriously late the night before; it feels like I've missed out

School is a wonderful means of freeing up time - roll on three years when they're both there. It is rare that our boys fail to sleep through; one night in three Mally will need a comfort at 11PM. But he seems to be in the habit of waking at 5.30 at the moment, which means he wants me in bed with him for a couple of hours.

Cooking rissotto every morning is a true definition of 'ardkore. Felix gets sandwiches. We don't put the kids in childcare til 6. However, the one day a week that Felix goes to after school club is the highlight of his week and he complains that he doesn't get to go there enough! Similarly, Mally has to be prised out of his nursery at 3.30 on the days that he goes.

My parenting life seems far less onerous than yours but then I don't work that much, so I am around all the time. This is unlike how it was with my parents. I think our generation does a much better job of bringing up children than our parents' generation did. I also seems to me that the teenagers I talk to are a lot more self-confident and aware than ours was. One gives the best years of one's life to bringing up children, just at the time one has the greatest earning potential; but it's the greatest reward in life. I look forward to when Britain has a culture of parent hood; I don't think it has one right now.

Melchior
24-05-2006, 12:27 PM
I said I'm both (dad and drugs) but I've only been a dad for 2 weeks and couldn't possibly imagine taking drugs at the moment. But I know lots of perfectly good parents who occasionally have terrible hangovers. I'm not sure it makes much difference if it's too much red wine or a cheeky pill.

IdleRich
24-05-2006, 12:32 PM
It sounds so difficult. I just can't ever imagine having children, I recognise that everyone says how rewarding it is, but the sacrifices that you have to make sound so huge. This may sound selfish but can you really be selfish regarding someone that doesn't exist yet?
Not to say that I don't admire anyone who does have kids (and does it properly of course).

Gabba Flamenco Crossover
24-05-2006, 01:58 PM
sure as night turns into day a loved and well-looked after child will grow into a happy, well-balanced and loving adult not prey to mental illness, emotional dysfunctionality and violence.

No slight whatsoever on your parenting skills or undoubted love for your kids - but the reality is a bit more complex than that. Upbringing is a major factor in mental health and social adjustment, but very far indeed from being the only one, or even the only significant one. Genetics, physiological elements & trauma in adult life all play a part. No-one knows what causes some people to flip & keeps others on the rails.

Maybe I've failed to spot some subtle irony in this quote, if so I'm sorry. If it is ironic then it's out of character with the commendably heartfelt nature of the post as a whole.

Ned
24-05-2006, 02:05 PM
This may sound selfish but can you really be selfish regarding someone that doesn't exist yet?

I have to do an exam on this in a week. Interesting (maybe) parallel is whether it's unfair of us to use up all the oil and leave none for future generations, given that they don't exist yet so they can't have any rights...

Grievous Angel
24-05-2006, 02:25 PM
No slight whatsoever on your parenting skills or undoubted love for your kids - but the reality is a bit more complex than that. Upbringing is a major factor in mental health and social adjustment, but very far indeed from being the only one, or even the only significant one.Maybe not the only significant one, but I reckon it is by far the most important one for most people.

Eric
24-05-2006, 02:28 PM
I am one of the deluded who believes his kids sleep thru ... ours are out at 9 PM and wake up usually at 7:30 or sometimes even later. When they don't nap they fall asleep between 7 & 8 and wake up around the same time. I know this is exceptional; everyone we've ever mentioned it to is disbelieving. But it IS true!! :) Sometimes they do wake up in the night though, but rarely for more than 5 minutes.

I smoke the occasional bit of weed but not much. No time, no energy; I have other things to do in general, but when I don't or when I'm stressed/tense I like a touch. Drinking beer most days though, a little. And off of the tobacco as of last week. We shall see how it lasts.

jenks
24-05-2006, 02:31 PM
Very nice post woebot.

we take it in turns to do the early shift at weekends, although i do the ferrying to football practice and matches to all points in essex.

I have two who are both at school now and that really does change things around an awful lot. Fortunately, my job helps in that i get home at a reasonable time and i have the holidays off with them.

my highlight of the day is story time, all in the double bed for two stories, lots of voices and audience participation - when i went away for a fortnight to australia i think i missed this more than anything else.

I worry about how good a father i am, fret over them when i see them in social situations and manage to project a whole range of disasters upon them yet they seem to be impervious to this and are perfectly happy.

They have my wife's sleeping genes which means they love bed and put in a solid 12hrs evry night (yeah, we're lucky). It means that one of us can usually do soemthing in the evening.

anyway this whole thread will probably be seen from the outside as dreadully twee but i think it is only fair to address a reality of the forum - many of us are dads and that comes way ahead of any other beef that can be manufactured here.

no i don't smoke weed mainly because i don't know anybody who does anymore and because i prefer a beer nowadays

IdleRich
24-05-2006, 02:49 PM
Quote:

Originally Posted by IdleRich
This may sound selfish but can you really be selfish regarding someone that doesn't exist yet?
I have to do an exam on this in a week. Interesting (maybe) parallel is whether it's unfair of us to use up all the oil and leave none for future generations, given that they don't exist yet so they can't have any rights...
Sorry, I've not expressed myself very well in that post. Obviously you can be selfish to someone who doesn't yet exist (or a group of such someones) by using things that they will need.
I meant about the specific case where I choose not to have a child so that I have more time, money whatever - can that be selfish when the person that I am being selfish to will never exist?

gek-opel
24-05-2006, 05:57 PM
The distinction is obviously that in the case of using up the world's resources, it is assumed that there will be future generations (even if we ourselves do not reproduce)... Whereas to not have children is not selfish at all (unless you believe there to be some kind of genetic duty to reproduce- and even then it is not a selfishness exacted upon the unborn child, rather society or god, or whoever is creating the moral demand)... One can clearly be selfish to those who are yet to exist, but will (on a balance of probabilities) come into existence, but not to those who we know will never exist (as in the case of choosing not to have a child).

bassnation
24-05-2006, 06:19 PM
The distinction is obviously that in the case of using up the world's resources, it is assumed that there will be future generations (even if we ourselves do not reproduce)... Whereas to not have children is not selfish at all (unless you believe there to be some kind of genetic duty to reproduce- and even then it is not a selfishness exacted upon the unborn child, rather society or god, or whoever is creating the moral demand)... One can clearly be selfish to those who are yet to exist, but will (on a balance of probabilities) come into existence, but not to those who we know will never exist (as in the case of choosing not to have a child).

when you get to a certain age and you haven't yet had kids, your parents probably think you are being selfish by denying them grandchildren - and they definitely exist. still, everyones life is their own to lead in the way they choose. i remember my parents nagging about it at the tender age of 26, didn't even have a partner at that stage. like, what are you supposed to do? these things take time.

Gabba Flamenco Crossover
24-05-2006, 06:54 PM
when you get to a certain age and you haven't yet had kids, your parents probably think you are being selfish by denying them grandchildren - and they definitely exist. still, everyones life is their own to lead in the way they choose. i remember my parents nagging about it at the tender age of 26, didn't even have a partner at that stage. like, what are you supposed to do? these things take time.

I explained patiently that i was too busy taking drugs, but that just made it worse!

Edward
24-05-2006, 11:12 PM
If you want 'em, have 'em, if you don't then don't, both courses of action are equally selfish in that you are doing exactly what you want.

I think it would be a lot worse to have kids when you're not ready/feeling up to it and then end up not bringing them up properly.

bruno
25-05-2006, 12:09 AM
Unlike other commentators, my problem with parents is not that they deign to soil the planet with their children, but that they fail to look after their children properly. As far as I'm concerned that is *the only* issue. It's a task I worry myself about failing at constantly, but sure as night turns into day a loved and well-looked after child will grow into a happy, well-balanced and loving adult not prey to mental illness, emotional dysfunctionality and violence. And money or class has nothing whatsoever to do it, as the only measure of this is the time and energy you're capable of providing.
absolutely spot on, woebot. but never underestimate the power of thought and external events to fuck up a perfect upbringing. it's almost guaranteed that it will happen, if you're smart and inquisitive. the important thing is that the base is sound, so when you're hit you always stand up again.

zhao
25-05-2006, 01:38 AM
never underestimate the power of thought and external events to fuck up a perfect upbringing.

a good friend works with children and was telling me that in the field of psychology more and more we are discovering how crucial early childhood development is to the overall well being of a person - and just how direct the relationship is between lack of affection during early infancy (particularly from the mother) and predilection for violence. we always knew this but recent studies point to ever greater degrees.

I don't think anything else has even close to the same level of impact to a persons later psychological health than the love of its parents during infancy, and a little later, its interaction with others including peers.

ome
25-05-2006, 10:46 AM
awwwwww. woebot

Its the Work - fear nothing for you Love your familly, know what you feel and practice that reality/truth. trust.
(preaching like some christian fertility doctor - haha)

Before kids i was like 'its not fair bringing kids into this world' now i'm like 'watch out world!'

Every parent has their breaking point where they can no no longer respond - lack responsibility - its a choice/risk - trust in trying - you know, you know...
For my old man, that point was when I was 3, he was 21. He made his choices. My job often requires me to do 11hour days but if i get to work at 6am I can spend contact time with my offspring in the evenings. choice. I look after myself (i like my job) and look after my familly.

Its important for us to be ready to have kids and if we are not ready we must find dependance-in what will help us meet that challange. Community sucks in the city - why do we not help each other more, our children will go to school with their children- one generation.

i know parents that get back from a rave put paper all over the ground collapse and then the kids amuse thenselves by drawing around them - for me a bag of draw now lasts me 6months, rather than 6 hours, and if the kids are around me they just take the piss have fun cause i can't get worked up enough to express 'no'.

No judgement here, just hope were trying to do the best to look after what is ours... i ask myself that often

D84
25-05-2006, 11:22 AM
Then, before getting the children up and dressed, which can take anything up to an hour, I will cook my son risotto for his lunch and tea. My little boy likes wild mushroom risotto! I know it's insane. But I chop onions and bacon and make him this every day. I also have to make my daughter's lunch for nursery. For the past year and half this has been Pesto Pasta, though recently we have weaned her onto ham sandwiches.
Man, that's dedication! Risotto! Pesto! (Not that I have too much to complain re what my folks fed/feed me).

Yeah, I can't imagine doing a lot of drugs should I ever have a family - special occasions I guess - and just for the record (like anyone cares) my weed use drops dramatically when I'm in a relationship, have a good job, money etc...

I notice though that some kids whose parents go to raves/parties etc usually grow up with a strong aversion to doing such.

bassnation
25-05-2006, 11:26 AM
i know parents that get back from a rave put paper all over the ground collapse and then the kids amuse thenselves by drawing around them - for me a bag of draw now lasts me 6months, rather than 6 hours, and if the kids are around me they just take the piss have fun cause i can't get worked up enough to express 'no'.

No judgement here, just hope were trying to do the best to look after what is ours... i ask myself that often

i don't really like to be badly hungover with the kids - i work such long hours in the week that i decided a long time ago that the time was too precious to me to waste feeling fucked up. my kids are a little older than some peoples, but they still need lots of attention and love, the most important things you can give to children.

having children has profoundly changed me as a person - the way i view the world and myself. it puts you in touch with your own mortality, which is not a bad thing in my opinion. its the closest i have ever come to being at peace with myself, and (this is going to sound suspiciously like "kooky kalifornian drivel") becoming in tune with the rhythms of life, learning to accept my own and other peoples faults.

like woebot, i have a few hours to myself once everyones gone to bed which i use for music production. i smoke weed for this as i find it allows me to hyperfocus and it has an enormously positive effect as far as music is concerned. i'm not sure why this makes me a complacent gliberal, but there you go. like you, a quarter lasts me months on end, i'm not the kind of person who sits round sucking on a bong continually. it doesn't relax me either, the opposite in fact. i never smoke it when i am into family time or when i am working.

sufi
25-05-2006, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=bassnation]my kids are a little older than some peoples,[QUOTE]
me too, these days i'm doing little in the way of parenting or weed-smoking regrettably, so i don't really know which or woebot's (or k-punk's) boxes i fit into.

Loki
25-05-2006, 08:37 PM
well, i can't see how drinking is compatible with children - we both pretty much stopped drinking when we had the kids - but we both occasionally do weed and mushrooms (or did before the ban - hanging around buying stuff off guys in tracksuits in pubs is a little incompatible) and I find these drugs entirely in sync with child-rearing, especially mushrooms because our littlest kids, 5 and 8, love nothing better than to sit with us and have our full attention and that's something very easy to give on mushrooms - we often do them after they've gone to bed but the loved up nature of mushrooms, properly taken etc, is such that if they do get up in the night we inevitably spend more time with them, chatting about kids things - Dr Who, The Universe, Time etc - in a way which would somehow get interrupted by 'straight' life.

i'm not advocating complete off yer face mentalness with the kids around (and I've not taken any other kind of drug since having them - ecstacy, ketamine, speed etc - for paranoid fear of dying and leaving them alone) but taking something that makes the world seem nicer can't be bad for your childish interactions can it?

And while we're at it - I don't quite go along with the kids change yer life thing either... my life was always pretty much about bike riding and rolling down hills and building sandcastles and throwing mud and talking crap and making stupid animations and drawing silly pictures and making up silly stories... i've never really enjoyed sophisticated adult fun (i've been to three proper dinner parties and two of them were utterly tedious)....i just feel less stupid doing 'childish' things now i've got little people to mess about with...

dominic
27-05-2006, 11:23 PM
i doubt that i'll ever get married, let alone have kids

mainly b/c i'm emotionally dysfunctional and am addicted to the party life

but also b/c the only way to afford children, it seems, is to work long hours at a tedious job

or else you're rich

or you live in an area w/ a low cost of living

IKoss
01-06-2006, 12:45 AM
Fantastic thread...
Many of the notions herein have crossed my mind as well. In fact with seemingly no outlets for discussion. I would say I've been troubled even at times.

I am a quite young parent(single father, no less) in relation to my kids. I'm 29, my son is nearly 10, my daughter 7. At any rate, being that I was initially a child with children. I certainly began my parenthood as a means of duty, responsibiilty etc. Not a preferred decison. Therefore/obviously I was forced to alter the entire process of things. I can say that though, the tapering off of my 'habits' has been ongoing. I have after a decade, somehow decided that I do still find some personal benefits from these indulgences. Now I must quickly point out that my habits and my children have little to no interface with another. Save for the occasional beer or two they might see me consume on a weekday, or maybe several on a day off. Any of the pot smoke which might occur is neither seen nor spoken of to them. So for now anyways, is nonexistent. Also I seem to toggle back and forth between the smoke and drink tendencies. Not levels of, but just choice between. I rarely mix the two. For various reasons whch are less relevant, imo.

However I wanted to chime in on that note. But also I wanted to comment about the post regarding the use of other types of drugs and how they might seem to affect parenting. I have also through the years been able to sort of, 'outgrow' my urges to take any other types of drugs. With the exception of mdma. Accessibility, ie; not being able to gain access to it at will should not have anything to do with my urges... The degree to which I indulged(past) in any of these drugs should also not pertain, today?
The point I would make is that not only have I had many very considerably positive experiences with my kids while on x. But also that while my forcing of my self to 'grow up' too soon has had many adverse effects.
Some of these experiences have somehow been the bridge between where I was, where I wished I still was, and where my children are/were, and where we all needed to be...
In terms of an ends and a means. To me, it just doesnt get any better than that.
So contrary to what might be socially acceptable. I dont know that I can ever not want things to be like that. I also dont seem to be able to acheive that level of perception, quality of time spent, patience, empathy etc, while under typical daily circumstances.
So in spite of all of these things, and the rest of what is inevitable with life and parenting. I would suggest that parenting most definitely goes at the top of the list with regards to risk/reward scenarios, and also perpetual ironies...
lol

francesco
01-06-2006, 02:38 AM
Here in Mexico a lot of parents smoke cheap cocaine. No, drugs don't works for me, make feel me worse. Still no kids in my life, sadly.

stelfox
01-06-2006, 11:23 AM
the only thing i'd disagree with you about, matt, is that "money and class has nothing to do with it". the pressures of poverty are pretty huge and invariably impact directly on parenting ability (and i don't mean the innate ability to parent well, just the means and circumstances to allow it) and the kind of life the child has. of course, this isn't cut and dried. i have seen kids from the worst areas of liverpool (i used to teach so do know a little bit about this - after all, school's where kids go after the parents have started to shape their lives) who were absolute little stars with voracious appetites for life and knowledge, all thanks to the constant love and encouragement of a set of parents who didn't have a pot to piss in. on the other hand, one boy who lived two doors down from this family on the same street and had a smackhead hooker for a mum was understandably a lot more difficult. this does bear up your point - you either do it well or you don't and it's hard work - but it's just a lot harder to do well in really rugged circumstances than it is in more comfortable ones. it's no coincidence that economic and social deprivation pretty much always go hand in hand. i don't smoke a great deal of weed, would really like to be a dad some time and agree wholeheartedly with the basic points of this thread: that the initial post on this topic wrongly confused and conflated self-satisfied, self-interested middlebrow apathy with the role of parent (which is just plain fucking bonkers) and that the human ability, and need, to step outside your own immediate desires to love and care for someone else (even if they are a direct extension of that self) isn't something to be trivialised or thrown in people's faces by deranged and misanthropik(?) philosofascists.

bassnation
01-06-2006, 11:46 AM
deranged and misanthropik(?) philosofascists.

this why when someone professes to want to save the world via marxism (insert your favoured political orthodoxy here) - which almost always involves berating others for not being foot soldiers in this enterprise - it sets alarm bells ringing.

how can you save people when secretly you despise and fear the masses?

Haze
08-07-2006, 07:33 PM
Hi i am not a parent but before i started smoking pot i was relly chronicly depressed to the point of suicide sence and i still do i was 8 but then i started smoking pot when i turned 14 im 16 now if i didnt start i propoly would be dead right now but the only problem is i dont know how to spell that well :D

corneilius
24-07-2006, 05:07 PM
Fine thread, on one of the most important subjects for any humane being.

For good info on natural children, Alice Miller, Carl Rogers and Jean Leidloff have written some fantastic stuff ...... my daughter is 15, and I have utilised all the above in my 'learning' to be a parent - I had to literally throw out all my pre-concepts (and I had many ...) of parenting when she cam along, and had to start with her, who she was.

I was supported in this by a group called parentlink or parentline, that hosted weekly facillitation sessions that tough me much about how they way I was treated as a child had become the way I would treat my child, even though I swore I'd never do what was done to me, and that i'd be better - huh!

The early years have a profound impact upon the core psychology of the child and do determine the future adults core self-image and health ... much is forgotten, in order to survive, and what is forgotten remains .... if issues are not resolved, they are passed on in spite of best attempts ... children learn by feeling their parents as much as by seeing, and can sense and are confused by any incongruence, and they will do their best to adapt to it to 'fit in' - they have no choice really, for the parent is ALL they have.....

I was lucky.

Since then I have some to feel that an adults life is defined by how they leave the world for their children - do they leave a mess to clean up, or do they leave a sustainable and safe world. For what ever the parenting generation does not deal with, their children will be forced to deal with it.

Being a parent has politicised me in ways that have brought a deeper connection, a clarity and a more then determined activism........ positive parenting is the true role of all adults, whether they 'have' children or not, for those children belong to no-one, are not possesions or objects to complete what the parent has not completed for themselves (living through the children).

In the indigenous cultures, more often than not, parenting is shared by the whole community, and is thus better equipped to give the child a good sense of their own beingness, and thus a better inner quality of life........

My parents wanted me to be someone else, to be the right kind of heir to their legacy. And that is the worst thing that can happen to a child - I did get over it, I am over it, yet it is what our culture does to all it's children. It's best to let the child tell you who she/he is ...