niceness is golden, or why poseurs are shit

zhao

there are no accidents
of all the people I have met in my life, the ones who have had the most success/recognition in their fields, artists, film makers, theorists, writers, musicians, etc, the ones who are famous and sometimes considered to be legends, have been the nicest, humblist, and agreeable characters imaginable - with not a trace of ego in their demeanors.

when I walked up to Tim Hawkinson at his first retrospective (have since gone on to have retrospectives at MOMA NY, LACMA LA, and who produces some of the most amazing work today), and told him how much I love his work, he looked at me and asked "what do YOU do?" and for the next 15 minutes all he was concerned with was what kind of paintings do I make and what kind of design do I do for a living, etc. here was a major young artist on his way up and he was very interested in some random person that walked up to him - and not in himself at all.

I can give many other examples of good friends and people I've met who are like this - accomplished individuals who are genuinely fascinated by art and ideas and life and people, and possess not an ounce of pretension, have no prejudices, make no judgements, and do not subscribe to bullshit ellitist ideas about exclusivity or stupid distinctions between high and low.

and it is the miserable losers who pretend to be what they are not, the ones who are very much unhappy with themselves and their lives, the fake-ass poseurs of the world, it is these who act in demeaning, ugly ways; who are mean-spirited and use any chance to put other people down to make themselves feel better.
 

N A P H T A

Junglist
Well said!

As a mere casual observer of recent shennanigans in this place (and as a mate of Droid) I shall refrain from throwing my 6pence into the wider issues that this seems to relate to...

I will say however, that no matter how much general bitterness has resulted from the recent incidents in which certain users have signally failed the board in this regard, one thing seems certain to me: Dissensus will only be worse off if regular posters start leaving en masse. Participate, and set the standard by how YOU behave. There will always be people who are incapable of envisioning others as anything more than soundboards or foils to help them reaffirm their own identites. Let them depart, if they will... :)
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
I remain somewhat unconvinced by niceness... (many of the highest achievers are equally mean spirited egotists who care nothing for others.... it can tip both ways) however "not being a cunt" seems to be quite a good rule... too many ad hominem arguments kill a board... dead. (and they are dull too!)
 

zhao

there are no accidents
gek-opel said:
it can tip both ways

yeah DJ Spooky is a conceited twat and a half and I guess he's considered a "high achiever"...

revision: I don't mean all "successful" people in society's eyes are down-to-earth and nice. I don't mean the opportunists and the shameless self-promoters - I mean the people of a higher consciousness, the "real" artists and visionaries out there, they are almost always humble and gracious. they are always driven by a genuine love, instead of worldly gain or recognition.
 

D84

Well-known member
For me it's quite simple. If I meet someone new I know nothing about them nor them about me - so it's always best to be polite and see what they have to offer...

I guess it also comes from being a student and being proved wrong so many times by teachers etc. It's nothing to be ashamed of: it's all part of the learning process.

If someone is rude or something my reactions depend on my mood or the context - eg. I might start an argument or I might move on.

Most people end up getting filed under "Idiot" though - right under me of course... ;)

And as a friend said recently, if you go around demanding or expecting respect, you're likely to get none.
 

dogger

Sweet Virginia
confucius said:
yeah DJ Spooky is a conceited twat and a half and I guess he's considered a "high achiever"...

revision: I don't mean all "successful" people in society's eyes are down-to-earth and nice. I don't mean the opportunists and the shameless self-promoters - I mean the people of a higher consciousness, the "real" artists and visionaries out there, they are almost always humble and gracious. they are always driven by a genuine love, instead of worldly gain or recognition.

weeell, real geniuses, the once-in-a-generation masters, are "driven by a genuine love", sure, in the sense that they are completely consumed by their work, they have to be. but no real genius is unaware of his talents. if we're looking for common trends, this more often leads to a contempt for/inability to interact "nicely" with lesser mortals.

and does this matter? i don't admire joyce as a writer because i think he was a "nice guy" i would like to have a pint with - i couldn't really care less. another (literary) example - pound. complete twat, no doubt, raving fascist, but he wrote fucking great poetry.

counter argument - all great art is personal (because great art requires style, and style requires individuality, and individuality requires personality), therefore the personality of the artist is important.

so the necessary complication to the above is that the private personality of the artist - e.g. their "niceness" - is unimportant; what matters is their artistic personality - the personal way they approach their art and see life.

entirely different from being nice, gracious or humble.
 

D84

Well-known member
Ah yes, the artistic ego - probably deserves a thread of its own if there hasn't been one already.

I fully agree - give them a bit of latitude etc. You don't want to get cut by a passing ego...

I'm not sure though if artists' rudeness bears much correlation with how good they actually are, which for the most part is quite subjective, than with how good they think they are... And professional success depends on so many other factors than just the quality of a person's work...

Also for some people creating requires a lot of personal time to prepare and basically think about the work in question. I don't think there's anyone here who hasn't been rude to people when they've had a lot on their mind.

I also firmly believe that there's only so many people you can talk to in a day - and this is especially true of successful artists.

I have a friend who I think is a great artist and he went through a period when he was behaving atrociously and still freaking me out with his work (ie. it was tops), even though our friendship was quite strained at the time. But he paid a price for that professionally and he's only starting to get back on track.

On the other hand, when I met him I had no idea who he was (he had just got his first big gig) and we got on famously...
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Another example along Dogger's line of thinking: Miles Davis... Complete horrific bastard, wife beater and all in real life, but his artistic voice was one of utter humanism, his trumpet an audio-signature of compassion and mournful delicacy...
 

luka

Well-known member
i wish i could be nice more often. im basically lovely. but somtimes im a bit mean. but if you want to get the best out of people you have to be nice to them sometimes. but do you sometimes have to be mean?
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
I don’t know how you handle people interacting with you daily in your specific mode of engagement, can see how woops is a fellow presence in what many people would find quite intimidating, very close and personal, you mentioned cheese and onion crisps once and who doesn’t know that dry crunchy smell, but isn’t that where the magic crackles? Face to face? Doing what you love still requires a certain veneer
 
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WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
and you’re hard on Jah Klaw in a tough love way but only because the man has a mode of critical thinking level worthy of publishing, edit out the doubt, or do a q&a like another upload a la beret et Edmund

a format to rival any top 100 (393 for me)
 

luka

Well-known member
also cos he is really mean to me. he refuses to meet me to do a mega does of acid and roam the streets of london stark naked which ive been begging him to do for over a decade. the pain of rejection tips people over the edge.
 
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WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
rugby is the gateway, teaching through poise and manic aggression

just the language of it will hook him and reel him in far more than mma, keen too after watching Netflix but a tough niche for many to sustain outside of tournaments
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
Ruck
Maul
Scrum
Gary Owen
2nd five eighth
crashball centre
”he got Lomu’d”
99 call by Willie John McBride, maybe the greatest Scots Irish forward to ever wear the green and who rejected extremism
All Blacks lore
Australian lore
northern hemisphere lore
how France play off their scrum-half/9 rather than fly half/10
tight five
prop, hooker, prop
second row
“back row balance”
”40” - @craner
half backs
centres
back three
scissors
loop round
tap tackle
sealing off
the Dark Arts
legendary hitmen
legendary greyhounds
50/22
French rooster on the pitch 30mins in
Serge Blanco smoking 200 fags a day and still scoring for fun
the old French ball which had darker tips and a lighter middle so you could see how much spin a pass had on it
JPR
Rugby League
etc
edit “this is fucking mental” @luka , how could the France v Boks game be analysed through language

i predict a book from the venture at the very least
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
Crossing the gain line
Richie McCaw
Colin Meades
grand slam
triple crown
Fiji - hybrid forwards throwing mad unpredictable passes and lightning ninja backs
Pacific Islands lore
why doesn’t Germany play at a much higher level?
Chris Jones, the most violent forward of them all
Ella bros
Argentinian scrums and Ledesma
Eddie Jones quotes from interviews
the fly-half factory
Gatland’s “asthmatic warthog” quote from someone possibly in the Ireland camp
drop goals
scrum five
spear tackle
Wales in the 70’s and 2005-2019
last quarter
mitigation for red card offences
mythos of legendary wins and defeats
referees - are they having a mare/getting decisions wrong/reffing a better team out of the game
6/5 nations tournament lore
numbers/positions
greatest coaches
why Leicester used letters (see 2 down)
team colours
club lore
class models per nation
form
role of new vid refs
”bit of a dog” enforcers
early onset dementia


he won’t take the lure from me, a sacred task, maybe use Master and Commander like they played 7’s on deck for r&r, back to the grind
 
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