Minimalism

Z

zhao

there are no accidents
(thought I'd move this discussion to a new thread)

the idea of modularity is central to the minimalist cannon, in art, architecture, and music.

with modular constructions, there are numerous, sometimes inumerable, identical copies made of a single unit, which are then placed often equal distance from eachother, forming a tableau of rhythmic repetition.

so perhaps it can be said that this kind of logic, this kind of way of process, of doing things, promotes a kind of democratization, a kind of decentralized antithesis to heirarchy, where individual characteristics are downplayed to the point of non-existence, embracing a collectivity where separate units join together, in service of a highter function. so maybe in Minimalism subjectivity, the automaton of the author, and the expressiveness of the ego, is dispersed along an endless series of being/becoming (I can't decide which).

so then... is minimalism socialist?
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
previously on Minimalism:

vache said:
Oh, good god. I've seen both these artists (Alva Noto and Ryoji Ikeda - ed) live and enjoyed them, but "extreme minimalism"? Why is it that curators and academics have to market any sort of non-canonical project (in the museum sense) like this as though it is some sort of, in the parlance, liminal experience? It's just so middle-class.
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gek-opel said:
I know Ikeda's repping arts council funding....

But "extreme" seems a bit of a silly (and inappropriate???) term for minimalism... and anyway none of these people are as minimal as the lowercase/new London silence improv lot anyway, so yr right, it is a bit of nonsense hyperbole designed to sell "low art" to the art set (although as I say Ikeda's on an arts council grant, and Alva Noto= Carsten Nicolai, who is noted for his installation art, so it seems pretty unnecessary...)
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confucius said:
Dataplex is not very minimal at all. in the sensory deprivation or repetitive sense.

I wonder what Dumb-type is up to these days... the 2 shows I saw of theirs remain the best stage/theater/dance shows I've seen in... well, ever.
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gek-opel said:
Ah- the many meanings of minimal!

I guess Dataplex is "minimal" because it is constructed from tiny elements (a bit like minimal classical) and each element is just a small "cut" of the datastreams he presents during the opening 10 minutes or so, arranged into frenetic rhythms (again somewhat like minimalist classical)--- also the sounds selected are tiny/micro/incredibly textureless.

Its not "minimal" because it functions as one massive 50 minute piece, and also cos he cheats a bit later on by adding in those pings and slidey string noises... both of which are crucial to making the whole thing work so well, in my opinion... its strange that so much electronica appears to limit itself to 4-5 min long pieces (ie- song length) when they could explore longer structures...
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confucius said:
surely duration doesn't have much to do with the definition of minimalism? I mean the first wave composers all did extended pieces. (especially all the all night concerts or the Eternal Music Theater which is a drone that supposedly never ends)

also, I don't buy the "tiny pieces of information" definition either - pointilism is not the same as minimalism. Ligeti's concept of whatever-it-is-that-he-calls-it (poly-harmonic? micro-polyphony?), is basically the accumulation of thousands of tiny melodic pieces which comprise an ocean of macroscopic melody - and his work is not very minimal OR "minimal".

nor is the pure sound source thing which you seem to have brushed upon an essential characteristic of minimalism. if that's the case then all music made with a single instrument - piano solos for instance - are minimalist.

to me, the definition seems to revolve around a deliberate reduction of stimulus (palette), often through or in conjunction with sameness and/or repetition.
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gek-opel said:
Yes- many meanings...

I always thought minimalism in a classical sense meant using very small pieces of musical information as the building blocks for pieces (which might be quite grandiose, but the complexity comes in the way small cells of information are rhythmically varied) as in Reich, Reilly and Glass

OR

The holy-drone minimalists like La Monte Young and also Charlemagne Palestine et al (and Phill Niblock?)whereby even the rhythmical element is jettisoned and tone is the main element of interest.

It is a bit of a bullshit term really tho, as all "minimalist" composers seem to object themselves whenever they are labelled with it!

Of course you could say a piece with very few layers of music is "minimal" (indeed see minimal techno or post punk as "minimalist" rock, everything stripped down and given space).... all more bullshit, cos "minimal" can apply to a number of very different aspects of music, therefore obviously resulting in very different end-points. See Philip Sherburne's recent Pitchfork column on minimal's misuses as a term in techno...
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Slothrop said:
Very interesting (off topic, but probably more interesting than DJ Spooky anyway) question. I'd have said that minimalism should involve a rejection of the tension / release principle in favour of serially being in the moment - it's about being rather than becoming.

This would make Adams, Glass, Nyman et al Not Proper Minimalism, which seems fair enough. On the other hand, this defines 'minimalism' rather than 'minimal', which seems to just mean "more than normally repetitive and free from big gestures."
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gek-opel said:
Hmm... the bit about "free from big gestures" seems accurate... the way minimal music focusses you in (by various aesthetic means) on the small changes which are lost in more "maximal" or "overstated" music. This goes equally for tone drone stuff (where you are given the space to appreciate shifting overtones) and rhythm-based music like Reich or techno or funk, where the slightest shift in composition of a rhythmical loop becomes an intensifier... A focussing in on otherwise difficult to observe elements of change...

In which case Dataplex is far from minimal as some of the shifts are pretty big gestures.
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Gabba Flamenco Crossover said:
I guess there's a distiction to be made between music that is structurally minimal but can be texturally very rich, like a lot of electronica and modern classical, and music that is minimal by way of it's relative textural simplicity (a lot of folk falls into this catagory, but is structurally & narratively much more complex than modern music).

Then there is the 3rd definition, a 'spiritual' minimalism (cf. la monte young). Reaching out for the primal om that underpins the universe sort of thing.

Maybe the confusion comes about because minimalism is a term that describes the process of creating art, not the effect of the finished piece. But because art is really about isolating elements of normal existance so that they resonate in new ways, making it is always a process of stripping away unwanted elements - in that sense all good art is 'minimalist'.

Ian McDonald wrote a piece on Glass/Reich in which he waspishly labelled minimalist music as 'organised underachievement', which is a phrase I like a lot.
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T

Troy

31 Seconds
Interesting idea!

I am having trouble following your initial post. Especially as with regards to democratization. I mean, WHO decides on the initial Module to be replicated? Surely a person in power and not the collective? And if the Module is repeated and excludes other modules, then I would have to say that Minimalism is...

Fascism!
 
R

Rambler

Awanturnik
Don't joke - in Germany, Steve Reich had (has?) problems getting some of his more stripped down pieces performed because for some people they had associations with marching jackboots...
 
F

foret

Guest
Let me say, I think anybody should write what they want to write and what they think is important to write and assume the situation they want to, but I myself feel this is really a terrible thing because in my opinion we have been overwhelmed with the problem of advertising in the whole world, and advertising is a system of repeating the same thing over and over again, true or false, and trying to bulldoze the public into believing what they're saying, and furthermore, we're getting into more horrible and awful situations. We had this in many ways during all of our lives in propaganda. I mean, we have our own propaganda, but much more unfortunately, Hitler in propaganda. And I find that this repetition thing reminds me of all of that and I don't like it.

That's quite a charge against the minimalists.

Well, I'm not saying that they want to do it but to me that reminds me of it. I'm not saying that they're doing it that way but it bothers me very much that I see this in the background - having in the background this awful thing which is to beat people down to believing something just because it's repeated over and over again, and this is terrible. In my mind this is a way of destroying intelligence.
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transcript from this interview with elliot carter i read the other day!

does anyone in germany say kompakt 4/4 techno reminds them of nazis? maybe the tempi are too high

i don't agree with carter's ideas about repitition by the way; there is far more to it than that of course, but 'classical' minimalism seems very thin, and lacking the infinite array of textural possibilities in grime or microhouse for instance
 
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hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
advertising is a system of repeating the same thing over and over again, true or false, and trying to bulldoze the public into believing what they're saying
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This reminds me a lot of one of the things Adorne attacks Wagner for - that the so called "infinite melody" is actually not going anywhere at all, or rather, going in circles, returning to its starting point. And that Wagner is exactly using the same strategy as advertisers - getting people hooked by repeating the same short motives again and again. So - trying to define what is minimalism - could it be argued that Wagner is, in a way, a minimalist?
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
those are some far leaps / broad generalizations Mr. Carter is making there.

2 completely different kinds of repetition he's comparing - one is a formal device in service of sensory effects, and the other is broadcasting the same narrative message again and again. I suppose both can be said to be trance inducing but they are very different kinds of trance states, and don't go together well at all: ad execs are scared to DEATH of the kind of "boring repetition" the minimalist composers used, and indeed of anything that requires any kind of patience.

in fact, I think an arguement could be made that minimalist music (in broad or narrow sense) actually works to obliterate the short-attention span, surface seduction, feel-good humor of advertising. minimalism tends to be serious, abstract, and above all it is an ascetic practice which eschews indulgence, and that in itself makes it antithesis to the decadence of advertising. "less is more" is not a doctrine that consumer society is likely to embrace, ever.
 
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M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
What thread did this originally come from anyone? Was it the minimal techno one? I'd prefer to ask than have to read the minimal techno thread...
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Ah wicked. Thanks section.

I just discovered all about Just Intonation. I'm very excited. Read the "American Composers' book :


and found it very useful and informative. Made me revisit Glenn Branca.

Does anyone know how to open tune Logic strings?
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
mistersloane said:
I just discovered all about Just Intonation. I'm very excited.
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a major historical error of the 20th century to conflate microtonal/just intoned stuff with minimalism...

the 2 have naught to do with each other -- one is infinite degrees of difference between small intervals, and the other is incremental micro changes within sameness.

for just intonation, besides Young and Riley i have to recommend the following amazing amazing unsung geniuses:

rod.jpg

solo guitar in just intonation:
http://differentwaters.blogspot.com/2006/10/rod-poole-death-adder-solo-guitar-in.html
http://differentwaters.blogspot.com/2009/02/rod-poole-december-96.html


darreg.jpg

early electronics in just intonation from another planet.

http://differentwaters.blogspot.com/2010/12/tones-for-winter.html
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
zhao said:
a major historical error of the 20th century to conflate microtonal/just intoned stuff with minimalism...

the 2 have naught to do with each other -- one is infinite degrees of difference between small intervals, and the other is incremental micro changes within sameness.

for just intonation, besides Young and Riley i have to recommend the following amazing amazing unsung geniuses:
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Wicked thanks Zhao, the second piece by that dead guitarist is down though.

They do have stuff to do with each other but it's not important, one is a tuning system the other is a name for loads of stuff. I need more stuff please everyone, who's your favourite modern composer, and why please. I'm voting for Branca at the moment but I'm in a bit of a phase. And it's because he uses open tuning to create music that he hasn't compositionally written, which is still one step ahead of everyone else, no matter how Fluxus you want to get about letting the musicians do their thing.
 
grizzleb

grizzleb

Well-known member
Yeah I'd like some recs for just intonation stuff too... Only listened to a couple of bits here and there but I didn't really enjoy what I heard. Need to persevere I think. I mean, 12 tone tuning is pretty fucking limiting considering it forms the basis for pretty much any western music.
 
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