moved here from "Questions Afraid to Ask" - because it was getting buried and some of this I really hope someone can clarify -
listening to some wicked classic Cutty Ranks, Congo Natty - and realised I have no understanding of how Ragga is related to early DJ and Dancehall, and how it is related to Jungle.
the story starts with the first wave of digital riddims of the 80s, right? like "Murder She Wrote" and stuff like that?
when exactly did Ragga come up as a distinctive style? it is a primarily vocal style, right? or are there production qualities particular to Ragga which makes it different from other modern reggae? what besides Cutty are some essential early Ragga? and where is Ragga now? is there new shit that I should hear?
did jungle grow out of Ragga? it was mostly a UK thing, right? around early 90s? was they English B-boys taking hiphop and Ragga and messing about?
(on a side note, the "sped up breaks" explanation of the birth of jungle seems strange. to me it's not speeding anything up, more like adding a double-time beat to existing tempo. like replace the dub key jabs with snare... and you get jungle. am I nuts?)
how do the scenes relate? is it like dancehall is big umbrella which includes ragga and other forms?
Ragga and Jungle share lots of territory, but are Raggamuffins down with Beenie and Cecile? Cutty is clearly a very able vocalist, why is he not on any danehall riddims? is he exclusively working with peeps like Bug and Sizzle? if so, is he rebelling against "mainstream" Ja dancehall? while I'm at it, there is no such thing as "mainstream" and "underground" difference/stratification in Ja music is there?
why are there no dancehall/jungle cross-breeds? I mean you hear Elephant Man on Dirty-South hiphop records, why not some ill jungle remixes of Bounty Killer? there are quite a few house-y riddims, why have I NEVER heard ANY jungle/D'n'B flavored riddims????????
it's a lot I know... yes this time I really am CONFUSED.
Re: dancehall/jungle cross breeds
listening to some wicked classic Cutty Ranks, Congo Natty - and realised I have no understanding of how Ragga is related to early DJ and Dancehall, and how it is related to Jungle.
the story starts with the first wave of digital riddims of the 80s, right? like "Murder She Wrote" and stuff like that?
when exactly did Ragga come up as a distinctive style? it is a primarily vocal style, right? or are there production qualities particular to Ragga which makes it different from other modern reggae? what besides Cutty are some essential early Ragga? and where is Ragga now? is there new shit that I should hear?
did jungle grow out of Ragga? it was mostly a UK thing, right? around early 90s? was they English B-boys taking hiphop and Ragga and messing about?
(on a side note, the "sped up breaks" explanation of the birth of jungle seems strange. to me it's not speeding anything up, more like adding a double-time beat to existing tempo. like replace the dub key jabs with snare... and you get jungle. am I nuts?)
how do the scenes relate? is it like dancehall is big umbrella which includes ragga and other forms?
Ragga and Jungle share lots of territory, but are Raggamuffins down with Beenie and Cecile? Cutty is clearly a very able vocalist, why is he not on any danehall riddims? is he exclusively working with peeps like Bug and Sizzle? if so, is he rebelling against "mainstream" Ja dancehall? while I'm at it, there is no such thing as "mainstream" and "underground" difference/stratification in Ja music is there?
why are there no dancehall/jungle cross-breeds? I mean you hear Elephant Man on Dirty-South hiphop records, why not some ill jungle remixes of Bounty Killer? there are quite a few house-y riddims, why have I NEVER heard ANY jungle/D'n'B flavored riddims????????
it's a lot I know... yes this time I really am CONFUSED.
autonomicforthepeople said:I'm not an expert on ragga but I can take a crack at the jungle bits.
Jungle grew out of hardcore, the second phase of rave, when a lot of new influences (hip hop, ragga, dub/reggae, european techno, etc.) began to reshape acid house. Between about 1990 and 1992 the BPMs were gettting faster and new elements that fed into jungle started becoming prominent in the music.
People like Fabio and Grooverider would, apparently, modify the pitch controls on their turntables in order to mix sped-up hip hop instrumentals with house/techno. That led to new sampled breaks-based tracks being made and the 4x4 kick becoming a lot less prominent - another rhythmic possibility rather than the core of it. In hardcore the breaks were typically looped and have a definite start/resoultion cycle every 4 bars. When jungle starts to emerge from hardcore in 1993, the breaks are increasingly dissected and rebuilt. Producers like Remarc would distend breaks across 8, 16 or more bars with various mutations and deferrals.
The ragga influence, as far as I know, comes into hardcore early on with groups like Shut Up and Dance, Ragga Twins, etc. They were bringing UK sound system culture into rave. MCs became increasingly prominent over that period and their patois gets thicker as you get closer to the emergence of jungle. I've got some early recordings where the MC is doing public service announcements and mostly managing the crowd. In jungle from 3 or 4 years later, the MCs are doing very ragga-influenced routines.
You also hear a dub influence in hardcore which becomes a bit less obvious in jungle. Slow basslines (from ragga too) were put beneath the fast breaks. And reggae's chka-chka guitars were first sampled, then remade as synth stabs, and then resequenced into new patterns.
Hope this helps a bit
Slothrop said:
DigitalDjigit said:
DigitalDjigit said:
Re: dancehall/jungle cross breeds
petergunn said:
2stepfan said:
confucius said:
