I ask this because of hiphop's initial 'melting pot' nature, the fact that it is so easy to make like punk and it's use of guitars/mash in the early DefJam stuff and BDP...Also I remember quite distinctly that Public Enema were referred to as 'the Clash of hiphop' but they've since changed that to the 'Rolling Stones of hiphop'..
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Is hiphop a form of post-punk?
- Thread starter Buick6
- Start date
petergunn said:while i get your drift, statements that this make me want to shoot myself in the face...
Why?
yes of course it is a form of post punk. all forms of music can be traced back to rock. rock n roll is the life giving waters of all popular music. or at least, all good music. duh. anyone who says otherwise or doesnt use rock as a catch-all for all popular music of the last 50 odd years is a weird, deluded sort.
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Ness Rowlah
Norwegian Wood
Even if there was a common DIY, shout from the streets attitude
and a sideways look at Kraftwerk I would think the clear answer was a
resounding NO.
and a sideways look at Kraftwerk I would think the clear answer was a
resounding NO.
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
No. It's a form of post-funk. Different.
mistersloane said:No. It's a form of post-funk. Different.
now that would make a more interesting thread, but even then, i think hip hop was a break from funk, soul and well, most things that preceded it in the 'black music continuum' in a zillion ways.
Rick Rubin.Buick6 said:early DefJam
Hip hop got going around 1975 as far as DJing breakbeats, MCing and breaking so I would say it's definitely not post punk, it happened at the same time.
There were punk bands in 75 but I doubt the people doing hip hop parties had a lot of interest in them.
By the way the Clash are "the clash of hip hop" since they made this record:
http://www.discogs.com/release/81886
There were punk bands in 75 but I doubt the people doing hip hop parties had a lot of interest in them.
By the way the Clash are "the clash of hip hop" since they made this record:
http://www.discogs.com/release/81886
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Poisonous Dart
Lone Swordsman
They're like bastard children....
The DIY ethic, the attitude, the core audience creating their own culture and being dissaffected by popular culture and society shunning the artists and the music but music journalists and photographers writing about the scene and making it the "new big thing" they BOTH have in common. Hip Hop and Punk melded and they shared influences and venues in the late 70's and early 80's...Hip Hop had one element in existence as far back as 1969 and two related elements were in effect by 1970...by 1972, ALL FOUR ELEMENTS OF HIP HOP CULTURE WERE IN EXISTANCE (Grafitti, B Boying, DJ'ing and MC'ing). Hip Hop didn't really interact with the Punk scene until 1976/1977 through a few key people (Fab 5 Freddy, Lee, Keith Haring, Jen Michel Basquiat, Patti Astor, Debbie Harry, Chris Stein, The Talking Heads, Jello Biafra, Television, Lady Blue, Akrika Bambatta, Jazzy Jay, Futura 2000, Phase 2, Arthur Baler, Beastie Boys, Rick Rubin, Malcolm McLaren, The Clash, Man Parrish, etc.) and then the fans mixed at venues and the scenes sort of melded. They are both separate but related entities that have strong parallels between each other. One.
Edward said:Hip hop got going around 1975 as far as DJing breakbeats, MCing and breaking so I would say it's definitely not post punk, it happened at the same time.
There were punk bands in 75 but I doubt the people doing hip hop parties had a lot of interest in them.
By the way the Clash are "the clash of hip hop" since they made this record:
http://www.discogs.com/release/81886
The DIY ethic, the attitude, the core audience creating their own culture and being dissaffected by popular culture and society shunning the artists and the music but music journalists and photographers writing about the scene and making it the "new big thing" they BOTH have in common. Hip Hop and Punk melded and they shared influences and venues in the late 70's and early 80's...Hip Hop had one element in existence as far back as 1969 and two related elements were in effect by 1970...by 1972, ALL FOUR ELEMENTS OF HIP HOP CULTURE WERE IN EXISTANCE (Grafitti, B Boying, DJ'ing and MC'ing). Hip Hop didn't really interact with the Punk scene until 1976/1977 through a few key people (Fab 5 Freddy, Lee, Keith Haring, Jen Michel Basquiat, Patti Astor, Debbie Harry, Chris Stein, The Talking Heads, Jello Biafra, Television, Lady Blue, Akrika Bambatta, Jazzy Jay, Futura 2000, Phase 2, Arthur Baler, Beastie Boys, Rick Rubin, Malcolm McLaren, The Clash, Man Parrish, etc.) and then the fans mixed at venues and the scenes sort of melded. They are both separate but related entities that have strong parallels between each other. One.
Poisonous Dart said:Hip Hop didn't really interact with the Punk scene until 1976/1977 through a few key people (Fab 5 Freddy, Lee, Keith Haring, Jen Michel Basquiat, Patti Astor, Debbie Harry, Chris Stein, The Talking Heads, Jello Biafra, Television, Lady Blue, Akrika Bambatta, Jazzy Jay, Futura 2000, Phase 2, Arthur Baler, Beastie Boys, Rick Rubin, Malcolm McLaren, The Clash, Man Parrish, etc.
well some of those people were just interlopers who were never accepted by the hiphop world (basquiat, haring) whereas others you only really read about there connection to hiphop when reading about it from an outside perspective (blondie) so i'm doubtful of how much of an impact they had, some of those people i've never even heard of being connected to hiphop (television, jello biafra, talking heads, arthur baker) and would be curious to find out why you mentioned them. and malcolm mclaren was just an opportunist who as far as i know (aside from the awful buffalo gals) has no longstanding connection with hiphop. and i don't know what connection jazzy jay, phutura 2000 or phase 2 had with punk. and aside from having grandmaster flash support them at some gigs i don't know what the clash ever did for hiphop. i'm curious to find out the links, but also a bit doubtful.
anyway, generally speaking i agree with the shooting oneself in the face sentiment.
Buick6 said:Why?
b/c
a) as someone else pointed out, hip hop and punk started about the same time, with hip hop slightly earlier... (as in kool herc was throwing parties before the Ramones started playing, to me anything pre-ramones is proto-punk), so by definition it can't be post-punk
b) it's a rockist attitude to define hip hop in its relation to rock, rather than on it's own merits.
c) the "use of guitar samples" logic is silly, b/c in the general scheme of hip hop history, that only went on for a couple years in the mid-80's...
d) lastly, just b/c some rock critics call PE the "clash of hip hop" doesn't make it so...
big satan said:i don't know what connection jazzy jay, phutura 2000 or phase 2 had with punk. and aside from having grandmaster flash support them at some gigs i don't know what the clash ever did for hiphop. i'm curious to find out the links, but also a bit doubtful.
anyway, generally speaking i agree with the shooting oneself in the face sentiment.
I agree too but check the link I posted above to see the connection between Futura 2000 and the clash and hip hop - they made a rap record together in 1982.
Lemme just say yr a pack of deluded elsitist Nazi faggots that can't accept the truth. Hiphop WAS a form of post-punk in many cases tho' not absolutely. It minimalised funk and disco and enabled the average joe to 'get it up' whether via graffitti or simple raps. Beside none of you fuckers even went to the early hiphop shows, most of you weren't even born, and probably didn't live in New York - myself included. But the lyrics DEFINTELY ported the punk or post-punk ideas of self-improvement and aggrisement. The brags on the early traxx, all the way to the hardcore leftist sentiment to shit like PE or BDP. Sonically It melded Kraftwerk, reggae and funk, even that curse word you bums call ROCK and took it to another level, in fact so far that IT HAS IN FACT SUPERCEDED ROCK AND IS THE NEW ROCK. Rock today is a joke, HIPHOP is the king, in fact hiphop acts don't even need to tour coz they sell so much. It's ROCK for there here and now whether you like it or not, even if the Kayne West album gets totally fucken boring after 4 listens. I didn't vote, the record buying pubic did! But if you want to shoot yrself in the face, I will be more than happy to load the weapon and help you pull the trigger, coz TIMEZONE 'World DESTRUCTION' is still a fucken happening and INFINTELY POLITICALLY RELEVANT jam! GET FUCKED and go listen to a fucking boring Burial rekkid you simps!!!
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gumdrops said:yes of course it is a form of post punk. all forms of music can be traced back to rock. rock n roll is the life giving waters of all popular music. or at least, all good music. duh. anyone who says otherwise or doesnt use rock as a catch-all for all popular music of the last 50 odd years is a weird, deluded sort.
Why don't you write an exegesis on skiffle?
Buick6 said:Lemme just say yr a pack of deluded elsitist Nazi faggots that can't accept the truth. Hiphop WAS a form of post-punk in many cases tho' not absolutely. It minimalised funk and disco and enabled the average joe to 'get it up' whether via graffitti or simple raps. Beside none of you fuckers even went to the early hiphop shows, most of you weren't even born, and probably didn't live in New York - myself included. But the lyrics DEFINTELY ported the punk or post-punk ideas of self-improvement and aggrisement. The brags on the early traxx, all the way to the hardcore leftist sentiment to shit like PE or BDP. Sonically It melded Kraftwerk, reggae and funk, even that curse word you bums call ROCK and took it to another level, in fact so far that IT HAS IN FACT SUPERCEDED ROCK AND IS THE NEW ROCK. Rock today is a joke, HIPHOP is the king, in fact hiphop acts don't even need to tour coz they sell so much. It's ROCK for there here and now whether you like it or not, even if the Kayne West album gets totally fucken boring after 4 listens. I didn't vote, the record buying pubic did! But if you want to shoot yrself in the face, I will be more than happy to load the weapon and help you pull the trigger, coz TIMEZONE 'World DESTRUCTION' is still a fucken happening and INFINTELY POLITICALLY RELEVANT jam! GET FUCKED and go listen to a fucking boring Burial rekkid you simps!!!
can't really see what it has to do with punk music at all really.
black music from the blues onwards has alwats had ideas of self improvement and more aggressive boasting - it's been a massive part of it, any joey knows that. its got none of the facets of punk at all, even when it's nicked heavy metal chords it's just colour and aggression as part of a purely rhythmical feel.
Hip hop is rhythmical, early hip hop was mainly over funk and disco grooves, then it started to deconstruct itself and build purley rhythmical music from drum machines and cut and paste aspects. It's simply not post punk.
Hip hop isn't rock either, why should it be it's not got any aspects of rock in it .
Buick6 said:It melded Kraftwerk, reggae and funk
hiphop had been around for a good few years before planet rock came out, the kraftwerk influence on hiphop was just a flash in the pan, and does reggae really have much of an influence over hiphop? i think if it did it would be more apparent, there'd be more reggae samples used, more lyrical references etc, i think that rapping owes more to gil scott heron, the watts prophets and lightning rod than to reggae toasters. if you listen to early hiphop it takes way more from disco than it does from kraftwerk or reggae.