Drum and Bass fans invading Dubstep

Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
Kinda. There's a certain amount of convert's enthusiasm; a lot of the people giving Nick a hard time seemed to be very new to Dubstep forum and apparently to dubstep. But lets face it, d'n'b is so big that in commercial terms it really helps to give a sales a leg up.

A bigger potential problem is dubstep producers, who seem to think that producing dubstep is "easy" compared to doing d'n'b. Gird your loins for a wave of metallic, thudding, testosterone-fuelled dullness.

On the other hand go here and check out the Booty Lala mix - gimmme... plus the check out the Punisher to hear how post-jungle bass pressure dubstep should be done.
 

nomos

Administrator
2stepfan said:
A bigger potential problem is dubstep producers, who seem to think that producing dubstep is "easy" compared to doing d'n'b. Gird your loins for a wave of metallic, thudding, testosterone-fuelled dullness.
*groans* Yeah, we're already hearing it. Straight rhythms with no panache, just macho, brutalist plodding and whatever scary vocal sample was on hand. Interesting that folks like the Mystikz and Kode 9 are bringing a lot more bounce and swing to their sets lately. And good timing for the 'Roots of Dubstep' comp.
 

adruu

This Is It
i had a few experiences early last year playing dubstep to dnb heads, and it bothered me that all they really liked or 'got' was the vex'd album...not knocking vex'd as artists at all (yet), but if your not feeling south london buroughs, splash, neverland, fallen, or request line i just dont think we are listening to the same genre.
 

nomos

Administrator
adruu said:
i just dont think we are listening to the same genre.
Yeah I've had the same feeling. 'Course that's when people will pull out that platitude about "the richness of dubstep," but really I think that's missing the plot.

I'm wondering if some of the DJs and producers who've been around for a while will start reasserting the garage-y side as a bit of a bullwark. And then 'slowed down dnb' can do it's own thing.
 
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Logos

Ghosts of my life
Yes interesting point about the swing in Mystikz/Nine's sets.

I'm (still) a jungle head but I really grabbed on to the abstract madness of 2-step whereas a lot of my friends saw it as pikey toytown music...anyway that led me on to El-B, horsepower etc. I always found the swing, lightness of touch and skippyness that you still find preserved in dubstep as important as the hollowed out minimalism...and want to see that balance preserved. I didn't come to dubstep because I wanted it to reflect the dead-ends of dnb post-1998.

I like to keep reminding recent dnb converts of the dirty G word when we discuss dubstep, so I think the whole roots of dubstep thing is cleverly timed.

Its difficult though to stop coming off like you are up your own arse in a "I was here in 1999" kind of way though :eek:
 

Numbers

Well-known member
autonomicforthepeople said:
'Course that's when people will pull out that platitude about "the richness of dubstep," but really I think that's missing the plot.

why would that be a platitude?
 

DWD

Well-known member
Aw. Are the dnb kids crashing YOUR party?

I'm a fan of drum'n'bass who was switched on to dubstep when I picked up "Stuck / Neverland". So, I certainly wasn't here in 1999, but I'd like to think that I "got it" immediately, and did so in the "right" way, despite my backward taste in music.

Some of you may recall that drum'n'bass was originally a very broad church which encompassed all manner of sounds and styles - there was soulfulness, there was skippiness, there was - yes - swing. Much of that had been leeched out of the sound by 1997, but I've always managed to find regular releases that move me, so I kept listening.

When I heard that DMZ release, I felt a lot of the things I'd felt in 1993 when I first heard drum'n'bass. The things I liked about, say, The Helicopter Tune, and early Dillinja and Photek were all present and correct. The sonic palette was more or less the same. The only difference was the tempo. I see an incredible continuity between these two forms of music and it's not a continuity which only works if you compare the early years of dnb to the early years of dubstep - like I said, from 93 to the present day, I've continued to find dnb which hits the spot - and I'd swear it's the same spot that dubstep hits.

When you gripe about drum'n'bass fans, I think the folks you're worried about are those who were attracted to dnb more recently - and were drawn by the awful mid-range noise that makes up 90% of the sound these days. You've got nothing to fear from the (ahem) real drum'n'bass fans.

If anything, we were here first!

Oh - as a further illustration: don't Mala and Coki remain big fans of drum'n'bass?
 
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Tim F

Well-known member
DWD I think it's implicit in this thread that "d&b fans" = "post-97 d&b fans".

Dubstep tends to resemble post-97 d&b slowed down more than it does pre-97 d&b slowed down, which is maybe 80% of what prevents the genre from fulfilling its potential.
 

DWD

Well-known member
Tim F said:
DWD I think it's implicit in this thread that "d&b fans" = "post-97 d&b fans".

And it's explicit in my post that I'm aware of that.

Whether this thread is a good example of it or not is open to debate, but there's a definite snobbiness which is displayed by followers of dubstep towards followers of drum'n'bass. Too often, I think that snobbiness is either unwarranted or undiscriminating.

Tim F said:
Dubstep tends to resemble post-97 d&b slowed down more than it does pre-97 d&b slowed down, which is maybe 80% of what prevents the genre from fulfilling its potential.

Anyway, I'm with you on this to an extent. I'd love to hear more inventive drums in dubstep - I'm not a huge fan of the Hot Flush releases, but Toasty's "Like Sun" was fantastic. I also loved some of the stuff on Boxcutter's Tauhid 12.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
Tim F said:
Dubstep tends to resemble post-97 d&b slowed down more than it does pre-97 d&b slowed down, which is maybe 80% of what prevents the genre from fulfilling its potential.

this isn't true. there are parts that do resemble it, but much that doesn't.
 

nomos

Administrator
m99188868 said:
why would that be a platitude?
Because it's an uncritical acceptance of anything running at 140 bpm as dubstep. IE: "it's all good." But dubstep does rely on certain formal elements from garage to distinguish itself from, for example, drum and bass played at 33rpm. Just like a song isn't blues just because someone says it is.

DWD said:
Aw. Are the dnb kids crashing YOUR party?
Trust me, living in Canada I've been told enough times that it's not 'MY' party to begin with. And I had no clue about garage in 1999. But the concern here isn't with new fans being attracted to dubstep. A huge proportion of the people listening to and making dubstep are/were jungle fans in the early- to mid-90s. There's no built-in distaste for jungle/dnb in general. But remember that UK garage was a response to post-Torque, etc. drum and bass becoming almost uniformly cold, macho, humourless, and rhythmically stale. 2step especially was a reaction against this. Yes drum and bass has influenced dubstep and of course drum and bass fans will be drawn to dubstep because they're closely related. But should formal/textual features of drum and bass come to predominate in dubstep (or maybe more accurately, should they come to represent 'dubstep' for the majority of listeners), thereby erasing the garage influence, then it really would be 'slowed down drum and bass,' wouldn't it? And the vibe and formal features inherited from 2step - which were employed precisely to separate UKg from dnb - would be muted, replaced by their antithesis. I think people like myself would like to see new fans engage dubstep on its own terms rather than merely seeing it as a new tempo at which to do what they already do.

Tim F said:
Dubstep tends to resemble post-97 d&b slowed down more than it does pre-97 d&b slowed down, which is maybe 80% of what prevents the genre from fulfilling its potential.
I'm not sure why yourself, Simon R and Woebot have fixated on this over-generalisation of dubstep as dead flesh/2step sarcophagus/cud of the 'nuum/slowed-down, neo-dnb/etc.. To anyone who's paid much attention to the music, it doesn't hold water. And each time, it comes off as a swipe from someone who's obviously not listened to much of the stuff. K-punk was arguing similar points until recently, when he was exposed to a lot more dubstep. And he admitted that the bulk of his critique was formed a couple of years ago (Rephlex 'Grime 1'-era) based on a very limited sampling. Given all the snipes at dubstep over the last couple of months, I'd love to see a few examples to back up the argument.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
But does the preponderance of halfstep (some of which has no elements at the doubletime of 138 bpm) not refute at least your argument about the primacy of 2-step aesthetics in the scene? I know Kode9 and DMZ have been playing some more upbeat shit recently, but has the sound not crystallised somewhat and the way an external, uninformed observer would see it is: Kind-of slowed down D'n'B? I don't see many newer producers repping anything but the most torpid of half-step...
 
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nomos

Administrator
@ gek-opel

Yes and no. If you look at DMZ half-step material, for instance, that 2step foundation is still there. It can be hard to find though. I think (for the most part) listeners already attuned to garage catch it and a lot of new listeners/producers miss it. Hence...
I don't see many newer producers repping anything but the most torpid of half-step...
And my guess is that that's the reason for the shift towards bounce amongst the Mystikz, Kode 9, Hatcha...
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
I'd hope so, also I read somewhere Kode9 saying the genre was basically approaching a dead end at present unless it embraced vocals...
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Re: vocals - anyone know what that tune with the Street Fighter 2(?) sample that Kode 9's been playing is? "i got to find my way..far away from home..."
 

evergreen

Well-known member
can anyone name specific dubstep records that exemplify 'joyless plodding half-step'? are you talking about things like the Caspa EP on Dub Police? a relatively straight track like "Jeffrey & Bungle" may point at what seems to be the wrong direction, but still sounds fresh to me, even if it does kind of toe the line between 'well-executed formula' and 'genre standardization'.

i don't see that good halfstep tracks need to be condemned simply because they don't utterly embody UK garage-esque bounce (not that anyone here is doing this). certain Loefah and Skream halfstep records are able to employ sub-bass pressure in more profound ways than a lot of 2-steppier tracks, because of their minimal drum patterns IMO; that was the unique beats-bass dynamic that drew me to dubstep--the (successful) overturning of beat science to bass science. perhaps that is what adherents to the post-SR/jungle concept of "rhythmic danger" ought to try understanding first, rather than reflexively charting dubstep onto the old yellowing scrolls of the familiar 'Nuum chronicle. :p although i admit it may be difficult to do so via mp3.

(sorry to have digressed from thread topic.)
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Yeah - I must confess I'm curious to know if the blissblogger made it to the last Dub War in NYC. Sounds like that was a good party.

It's not an absolute but the 2-Step element, however spectral/homeopathic its presence, is clearly very important to dubstep, "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing". Even Loefah's most minimal bass monsters have obvious traces of 2-Step in the hihat patterns and so on.

As regards snobbery, well, could it be that for lots of us the rhythmic structure and tempo of d&b just stopped working, and this well before the supposed fall into stentorian midrange blare. The frisson went out of it or something. We saw through it. Best not to mention the impotent flailing around of drill&bass/breakcore (there are exceptions i know). So there's almost a collective sense of relief and cathartic celebration around dubstep - a realisation that yes, this rave thing can still work! Maybe?

Anyway, I've always loved the area around 140bpm, as well as heavy dub and funky syncopation.
 
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