THE POGUES - the cases for and against

M

martin

----
One of the most vibrant mongrel fusions of punk, rockabilly, folk and garage rock to hit the UK, songs of love, rage, loss and madness ; one of the few London bands who actually sang about the capital with any sense of belonging or genuine affection?

OR

A bunch of Andy Kershaw-approved fiddle-de-dee merchants headed by an ex-public schoolboy smackhead alkie, who turned the 1980s into the 1950s in the stroke of a few singles?
 
S

stelfox

Beast of Burden
i have quite a fondness for the pogues. i like the fact that they kicked folk music squarely in the arse and did pretty much the same for punk in their own way. some quite wonderful lyrical moments, too.
 
F

Freakaholic

not just an addiction
I read Shane's "autobiography" which was acutally just word for word transcriptions of interviews from his girlfriend.

What really struck me, was that the 2 Tone movement in England at the time was his inspiration to go back and include Irish music in his rock. It was the whole reggae infused into pop and multi-cultural thing he liked.
 
M

mms

sometimes
martin said:
One of the most vibrant mongrel fusions of punk, rockabilly, folk and garage rock to hit the UK, songs of love, rage, loss and madness ; one of the few London bands who actually sang about the capital with any sense of belonging or genuine affection?

OR

A bunch of Andy Kershaw-approved fiddle-de-dee merchants headed by an ex-public schoolboy smackhead alkie, who turned the 1980s into the 1950s in the stroke of a few singles?
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when i think about them i always cringe a bit but when i hear em i think they're fkin great.
 
M

martin

----
swears said:
How big were the Pogues in the 80's then?
I think my dad had a "Greatest Hits" CD.
Click to expand...

Very big, in that they were known, but nowhere near U2 level. To an extent, they retained a sort of 'cult' following, even though the media loved banging on about the state of Shane's teeth and his drinking habits

I'm personally biased, I love them, I grew up as a kid in a household where my parents were playing Iris folk and C&W, and my older sisters and brother playing punk and new wave. The Pogues were like all that hammering together and much more - I just have to walk onto the balcony round the back of my flat early morning, and I can hear that sound at the beginning of 'Transmetropolitan' coming from the overland tracks in the distance.

I also think they managed to rake up the shit lying beneath the 'Revolt Through Style' gloss - after all, 80s London used to be an extremely violent place at times, much more than now. But there's also what Matt Woebot once hit on the head with one of his reviews (of a Vivienne Goldman 12"), a CCTV-free, more communal London where there were more opportunities for people to drift around and meet up in unexpected places.

I can't imagine a band like the Pogues existing these days. I don't really understand why some people despise them (though plenty did even back when they were on the go), maybe they see it as being a twee Irish folk revival, but it's anything but that, play it next to an Irish folk record from the 60s or 70s and it's like comparing skiffle to punk. And of course, the fact that in a way, they were 'our band' when we were kids, they were singing about Camden and Kings Cross which were just down the road. After I got back to the UK after the 7/7 bombings, I remember the first song I stuck on was "London You're A Lady", which said it all to me.

Anyway, if anyone wants to check em out, Red Roses For Me, Rum Sodomy and the Lash and If I Should Fall From Grace With God are the best, without a doubt. Peace and Love is patchy, but does have White City and LYAL plus some other OK stuff. Hell's Ditch was all over the place, and definitely not a good place to start. Also, on 7", try and land Poguetry in Motion and the Italia 90 "Jack's Heroes" (alternative to the godawful 'official' FAI anthem, 'Danny Boy')

The Shane MacGowan & The Popes albums you can take or leave, quite liked them though some of the lyrics on the 2nd ( about killing Hasidic Jews and raping women) were beneath contempt, and seemed like desperate attempts to shock potential liberal listeners. More so seeing as The Pogues had their fair amount of shit off NF types in the 80s and never resorted to such muck when they were going strong.

Anyway, that's my 2p.
 
L

Lichen

Well-known member
Coincidentally, I've been listening to Red Roses For Me this week. It's marvellous. It if it were the extent of the case 'for' they'd still come up trumps.

Despite fiddling-a-plenty its far from fiddle-de-dee . Rough, rugged and raw with some outstanding songs: Dark Streets of London, Transmetroploitan:

From Brixton's lovely boulevards
To Hammersmith's sightly shores
We'll scare the Camden Palace poofs
And worry all the whores
There's leechers up in Whitehall
And queers in the GLC
And when we've done those bastards in
We'll storm the BBC


Rum, Sodomy and Tbe Lash is very fine too but veers away from the London Irish muckiness a little.


Won't hear a word against 'em.
 
S

stelfox

Beast of Burden
i think it's mad to condemn an entire instrument anyway.
i like fiddles, i like saxaphones, i like rhodes pianos and even linn drums if they're played well. that's the most important part.
having said that, when i was working in a real-ale boozer during my college years, which ran an absolutely dreaded by all the staff thursday folk night, i did threaten to insert a set of bagpipes up one of the musicians rectum if he ever brought them with him again.
 
D

D7_bohs

Well-known member
Saw them first when they were still Poguemahone in a red flock lampshade place near warren st. station (name?) in '84 and they shook me up no end; songs like 'Paddy's been working on the railroad' and the 'Irish Rover', which were embarassing Oirishry at home, seemed entirely different when sung back with the whole emigrant experience behind it; the connection with punk- rock was immediate and visceral once made - unimaginable until they made it. At that stage, they hadn't played in Ireland yet; when did - supporting Elvis C. - I remember the reactions on peoples faces mirrored mine earlier; within minutes they became a lot of people's favourite band. There was also a certain shame that it took a London band to show us what should have been 'our own' music. It may be a bit fanciful, but I imagine the effect must have been the same for transplanted southern Blacks in Chicago hearing Muddy Waters; the slightly embarrassing down home songs coming back in your face like a hurricane.

Best Pogues moment ever was Christmas '87; in the Fountain in Clapton on Christmas eve. generations of London Irish (and West Indians) dancing and singing Fairytale of New York.....

Nowadays, Shane lives in Dublin and his periodic shows are just awful; Pissed and drugged up Celtic shirt wearing pond life seeing the whole thing as a brainless celebration of every 'up the 'Ra' 'boys- in -green' Oirish cliche, Shane an incontinent, incoherent mess.
 
B

Buick6

too punk to drunk
I saw them in Surfers Paradise in the late 80s in a fantastically tacky beer-barn niteclub. One of the greatest 'fuck you' punk rock experiences of my lifetime. All these Irish bums playing folk music in a rave up, then fucken Shanes comes out wearing Raybans and a Lacoste polo-shirt so pissed he's dribbling everywhere, just fucken shouts incomprehensible Irish blather into the mike as the band luanch into a hardcore jug rasing the roof off the fucken place. I was maybe 1/100th as drunk as Shane after about 6 cans of beer. It was fantastic.

I really like when they all took Eccy and did 'yeah,yeah,yeah' but successfully indetified the link between soul and techno and other high-energy musics (punk)..

I always thought guitar music would be revolutionised in the late 90s if more bands took E's and played live, rather than kept up with the same dullard beer/smack route.
 
M

michael

Bring out the vacuum
Really interesting to hear the accounts from people who were into them at the time.

My only associations with them, growing up in NZ were of bad cover bands in "Irish pubs" doing maybe 'Sally MacLennane' or something alongside stuff like Van Morrison's 'Brown Eyed Girl' or maybe 'Ride Around Sally' Commitments style.

Also, 'Fairytale of New York' is one of the Christmas standards that gets trotted out on classic hits stations down under. Quite weird, lyrics like "You scum bag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot" etc. alongside Springsteen doing 'Santa Claus is Coming to Town' or dearest Band Aid...
 
M

mucsavage

Member
michael said:
.

Also, 'Fairytale of New York' is one of the Christmas standards that gets trotted out on classic hits stations down under. Quite weird, lyrics like "You scum bag, you maggot, you cheap lousy faggot" etc. alongside Springsteen doing 'Santa Claus is Coming to Town' or dearest Band Aid...
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although it is obviously an Xmas song, it dosnt have to be. all xmas connatations can be removed - and it would still be great
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
The island it is silent now
But the ghosts still haunt the waves
And the torch lights up a famished man
Who fortune could not save

Did you work upon the railroad
Did you rid the streets of crime
Were your dollars from the white house
Were they from the five and dime

Did the old songs taunt or cheer you
And did they still make you cry
Did you count the months and years
Or did your teardrops quickly dry

Ah, no, says he, twas not to be
On a coffin ship I came here
And I never even got so far
That they could change my name

Thousands are sailing
Across the western ocean
To a land of opportunity
That some of them will never see
Fortune prevailing
Across the western ocean
Their bellies full
Their spirits free
Theyll break the chains of poverty
And theyll dance

In manhattans desert twilight
In the death of afternoon
We stepped hand in hand on broadway
Like the first man on the moon

And the blackbird broke the silence
As you whistled it so sweet
And in brendan behans footsteps
I danced up and down the street

Then we said goodnight to broadway
Giving it our best regards
Tipped our hats to mister cohen
Dear old times squares favorite bard

Then we raised a glass to jfk
And a dozen more besides
When I got back to my empty room
I suppose I must have cried

Thousands are sailing
Again across the ocean
Where the hand of opportunity
Draws tickets in a lottery
Postcards were mailing
Of sky-blue skies and oceans
From rooms the daylight never sees
Where lights dont glow on christmas trees
But we dance to the music
And we dance

Thousands are sailing
Across the western ocean
Where the hand of opportunity
Draws tickets in a lottery
Where eer we go, we celebrate
The land that makes us refugees
From fear of priests with empty plates
From guilt and weeping effigies
And we dance
 
straight

straight

wings cru
zhao said:
The island it is silent now
But the ghosts still haunt the waves
And the torch lights up a famished man
Who fortune could not save

Did you work upon the railroad
Did you rid the streets of crime
Were your dollars from the white house
Were they from the five and dime

Did the old songs taunt or cheer you
And did they still make you cry
Did you count the months and years
Or did your teardrops quickly dry

Ah, no, says he, twas not to be
On a coffin ship I came here
And I never even got so far
That they could change my name

Thousands are sailing
Across the western ocean
To a land of opportunity
That some of them will never see
Fortune prevailing
Across the western ocean
Their bellies full
Their spirits free
Theyll break the chains of poverty
And theyll dance

In manhattans desert twilight
In the death of afternoon
We stepped hand in hand on broadway
Like the first man on the moon

And the blackbird broke the silence
As you whistled it so sweet
And in brendan behans footsteps
I danced up and down the street

Then we said goodnight to broadway
Giving it our best regards
Tipped our hats to mister cohen
Dear old times squares favorite bard

Then we raised a glass to jfk
And a dozen more besides
When I got back to my empty room
I suppose I must have cried

Thousands are sailing
Again across the ocean
Where the hand of opportunity
Draws tickets in a lottery
Postcards were mailing
Of sky-blue skies and oceans
From rooms the daylight never sees
Where lights dont glow on christmas trees
But we dance to the music
And we dance

Thousands are sailing
Across the western ocean
Where the hand of opportunity
Draws tickets in a lottery
Where eer we go, we celebrate
The land that makes us refugees
From fear of priests with empty plates
From guilt and weeping effigies
And we dance
Click to expand...


can we expect some sort of 'celtic euphoria' segment in the next ngoma mix then zhao?

i managed to see shane and the popes xmas shows in manchester for 3 years before the pogues got back together and even though he turned up stated and late it was magical every time. My mates who ent to the recent arena shows have said hes back to his worst again though
 
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Z

zhao

there are no accidents
And we dance
And we dance
And we dance
And we dance
And we dance
And we dance
And we dance
 
J

jonny mugwump

exotic pylon
lyics wonderful

music..... sorry but i just cannot abide them at all- i've tried and i've tried but hold on, why am i sorry. For all its attack on folk, it just doesn't work. If i want folk re-arranged i'll listen to John Martyn and Tim Buckley both of whom were what AT LEAST 10 years before this bunch.

OK, i'm not sorry.

it can't just be me surely?

Jem Finer's new stuff is superb.
 
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