Foward Russia!

mmm bagpuss rucksack- you've just hit a point of sublime anger in my mind there Swears, I knew of people like that... and yeah, I suspected that given their name and image they would be exactly this kind of boring thing entirely held within the constraints of some outmoded aesthetic. I would say however that Bloc Party do have a genuinely great drummer, and are at least aware that they are stuck in a deeply unoriginal genre (quite why they remain there then is another matter entirely...)

gek-opel said:

I would say however that Bloc Party do have a genuinely great drummer

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I agree, and I've always wondered why when Bloc Party were discussed on dissensus - a board so heavily devoted to 'beats' - rarely if ever did anyone mention the merits of the drummer. Whether or not a person likes or hates the band (I have no opinion on them either way, though dissensians seem to abhor them), it seems difficult to deny that their drummer, unlike the majority of 'real' drummers in indie these days, has an identifiable sense of time, a flow if you like, and loads of confidence, all of which comes through no matter what he's playing.

However, I must say that talk of good drummers always makes me miss the halcyon days of Touch & Go (early to mid 1990s), as well as the splendors bestowed upon the world by DC/NYC/So Cal hardcore, discussed elsewhere 'round here.

Tate said:

I agree, and I've always wondered why when Bloc Party were discussed on dissensus - a board so heavily devoted to 'beats' - rarely if ever did anyone mention the merits of the drummer. Whether or not a person likes or hates the band (I have no opinion on them either way, though dissensians seem to abhor them), it seems difficult to deny that their drummer, unlike the majority of 'real' drummers in indie these days, has an identifiable sense of time, a flow if you like, and loads of confidence, all of which comes through no matter what he's playing.

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I disagree - i think 'indie' has got a lot tighter rhythmically over the last 6 years cf. 'Take Me Out', Arctic Monkeys, the hives, that awful Jet song that's like the Who for 6yr olds. Compare this to the previous generation of indie bands like travis or starsailor who had no rhythmic feel at all, and none of the britpop bands had decent rhythm sections - all the dancable britpop hits like Girls & Boys or Common People rely on sequencers.

The more up-beat indie bands now are looking to the pre-Sgt Pepper 60s as their template - tracks that are rhythmically compulsive & urgent, but not funky - sexless, pubescent energy. The difference between now & the late 70s/early 80s (when this model was last in fashion) is that indie bands now have access to the money & technology to make it sound convincing. Very few musicians in current indie bands are good enough to get the bass & drums to 'lock' - you need years of live playing experience to do that. Most producers use pro-tools as a shortcut, which is why a lot of modern guitar music has that eerie, living-dead feel - compared to stuff like the Jam, it's too perfect to convince

Tate said:

However, I must say that talk of good drummers always makes me miss the halcyon days of Touch & Go (early to mid 1990s)

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Yeah, I was listening to Venus Luxurre No.1 baby last night - what a great record. But those bands were good because they werent trying to fit into a template (& were signed to a label who were happy to just let them get on with it). GVSB had 2 bass players & did stuff with samplers too. Cop Shoot Cop (not on T&G but of that era, though not as good as GVSB) had 3 bass players and augmented the drumkit with various metal sheets & pipes. Bob hope of getting an indie band with that kind of imagination now.

Gabba Flamenco Crossover said:

Very few musicians in current indie bands are good enough to get the bass & drums to 'lock' - you need years of live playing experience to do that.

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Apart from the monkeys. Looking at the footage from T in the Park they are shockingly tight - absolute stop-start disciplined precision. As opposed to say Kasabian who on-stage are just shocking, all over the place.

Gabba Flamenco Crossover said:

Yeah, I was listening to Venus Luxurre No.1 baby last night - what a great record. But those bands were good because they werent trying to fit into a template (& were signed to a label who were happy to just let them get on with it). GVSB had 2 bass players & did stuff with samplers too. Cop Shoot Cop (not on T&G but of that era, though not as good as GVSB) had 3 bass players and augmented the drumkit with various metal sheets & pipes. Bob hope of getting an indie band with that kind of imagination now.

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Tilly and The Wall have a tap dancer instead of a drummer.

Duracell is one guy, playing drums set up to trigger patterns on a synth.

Just two examples.

... and the likes of Lightning Bolt and DFA1979 have been pushing more stripped-down versions of the guitar band.

hint said:

Tilly and The Wall have a tap dancer instead of a drummer.

Duracell is one guy, playing drums set up to trigger patterns on a synth.

Just two examples.

... and the likes of Lightning Bolt and DFA1979 have been pushing more stripped-down versions of the guitar band.

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that band temperatures i saw the other night used drums to trigger synth noises, with a set up a la ver bolt, they were very good, sounded rather like a jazz diesel engine boat if that makes sense.

Gabba Flamenco Crossover said:

i think 'indie' has got a lot tighter rhythmically over the last 6 years cf. 'Take Me Out', Arctic Monkeys, the hives, that awful Jet song that's like the Who for 6yr olds.

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Thanks Gabba, fair point and I hope that you are right. I don't follow guitar+drums music close enough anymore to know if it's gotten tighter over the last 6 years or not, but it'd be great if it were so. In any case, it wasn't my intention to make the "there are no good indie drummers" argument, since that would be (a) patently false, and (b) a very boring way to approach the music.

And yes, of course, there are tons of interesting drummers/percussive things about. Lightning bolt, the guy from the blood brothers, loads of holdovers from san diego and chicago (todd trainer!) and dc scenes and the people they inspired, etc etc. Hella and his thing with the pinback guy, the ladies (godawful bedroom production tho). Rob ellis. the guy from les savvy fav. the guy from q and not u. Does mark trombino play anymore or just produce? Out of all of that dance-punk stuff, there must be someone good in that lot too, no? (I obv don't know) And of course there must be many more.

as for tilly and the wall, i know about them, they're coming to my town in a couple of months; haven't heard duracell, but based on your description, i have one word for you: macc! (oops, that's not indie, smile)

swears said:

Who cares how good their drummers are?
What are you, Patrick Bateman talking about Genesis?

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If it's the difference between good music or shit music, I care how good the drummer is.

Yes, it makes as much difference as "how good are the beats" on any given dance/hip hop/whatever electronically produced record, it is in fact precisely the same. And the key thing with Bloc Party is that the drummer (name:Matt Tong) lifts them, (not completely, but partially) and in such an obvious way that even people with zero muso-like attributes will comment on it. I also think the "tightness" of ver Monkeez is grotesquely overstated. They are a mediocre, archetypal "local band"-made-good, and nothing more... The bass player and drummer might be "in the pocket" (so to speak) but they aren't really doing anything terribly revelatory with it.

gek-opel said:

ver Monkeez ... are a mediocre, archetypal "local band"-made-good, and nothing more... The bass player and drummer might be "in the pocket" (so to speak) but they aren't really doing anything terribly revelatory with it.

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Nothing I disagree with here. I just think it's interesting that as indie has replaced dance in the mainstream, indie bands & producers have rediscovered the rhythm section. But, yeah, the form in which they do it is 'let's pretend it's still 1966' pt. 3452.

It is retrospective, yes, but the whole thing is slightly more complicated than you make out, I would argue... "Indie" (and here we are referring to Brit Indie-rock, I presume) is not some kind of monolith (tho it may appear to be so to the untrained eye) there is plenty of variety, from neo-post punk to dance-rock, from garage rock to post coldplay/U2 tear-jerk tosh. I'm not a fan of any of this stuff, but each has their own rhythmical modes and drum conventions... I think the return of post punk (as style or affectation or whatever) in both rock and dance-rock forms has meant a greater emphasis on rhythm, but largely not in a terribly interesting way (and by that I mean in the sense of exploring rhythmic interplay, or new bass-snare patterns or new sonics) its merely been foregrounded in a way which goes slightly beyond mid-90s britpop... I'm not really convinced by this indie=mainstream thing either... to a certain extent this is as much about media attention as actual sales... rotten MOR is and always has been the absolute heart of the mainstream, tho it sometimes cloaks itself in different clothes. The massive sellers aren't really the Arctic Monkeys or fashion-haircut indie, its the Coldplays, and Blunts of this world that really pack them in, the Keanes and KT Tunstalls...

Yes, I will agree that its the liminal space between avant/underground and megabucks mainstream which is the key territory in determining aesthetic change and where the most interesting interactions and interpolations occur... (the messiest space). The interesting thing is the way acts which COULD fill this space (ie Junior Boys, Hot Chip and the like) are denied the proper opportunity...

gek-opel said:

Yes, I will agree that its the liminal space between avant/underground and megabucks mainstream which is the key territory in determining aesthetic change and where the most interesting interactions and interpolations occur... (the messiest space). The interesting thing is the way acts which COULD fill this space (ie Junior Boys, Hot Chip and the like) are denied the proper opportunity...

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.. because unlike the 80s, there are no big indies like factory or creation to give them that exposure, and no sympathetic music press. This is the major structural problem with guitar music IMO.

Little waves may come up for bloggers to take note, but I think there's not a big thing coming along or any label or music press leading the charge.

8-bit mentioned in an indie thread

swears said:

What's Domino's status? Are they a genuine indie or have they been bought out by a major? I've heard this used to be quite a cred label in the nineties.

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A bit of research (Wikipedia & the music week archives) suggests domino are fully independent, although I dont know what licensing deals they have & with who. They were definitely an indie cred label in the 90s - the first record they released was by Sebadoh & it doesnt get much more indie than that..

swears said:

Me, I blame the musicians, I hardly ever hear anyting that could fit into that middle-ground between innovation and sales. There's stuff I love like minimal techno, 8bit, dubstep, etc...but it's hardly gonna change Brit yoof culture is it?

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But the musicians cant work in a vacuum. 80s indie culture was characterized by a number of big indies who colluded with the music press to create an alternative reality music industry where bands could make an impact on a national level without actually selling that many records, or paying any industry dues - so artists were motivated by knowing that they could get thier work to an audience without compromising it.

No one has really worked out a way of using the internet to build a present-day version of this, which kind of suprises me. One one hand, the constant stumbling block for 80s indie labels was distribution - because it's a physical process with real world costs, the indies couldnt keep up with the majors and no amount of press attention could compensate for that. The digitization of music potentially removes that hurdle. But the internet seems to have created problems in promotion by removing the cultural gatekeepers, so artists/labels have to go to greater lengths to get themselves heard above the cultural noise. All labels (but majors especially) spend vastly more money on marketing now than they did 15-20 years ago.