Early Modern RnB - the Producers

O

Omaar

Guest
The timberlake thread got me thinking that this might be make an interesting spin-off thread; reading people's thoughts on who the key producers are in rnb now and how they're working got me thinking about who the seminal producers were when early contemporary rnb got rolling in the early '80s.

So, who were the producers that sparked the birth of modern RnB? I'm thinking of stuff like Jam and Lewis, Prince, Solar records people - What was it that defined this stuff - experimentation with new technologies and production techniques, or a different club scene? Are there seminal tracks that mark out the birth of this genre in contrast to what came before, or was it a fairly steady development in a continuum from soul, funk and disco? It seems that alot of this stuff developed as much out of a disco and funk heritage as anything else, a lot of the producers and artists must have been coming from work in this genre. But while the history of Hip hop and House get discussed alot, and both were born out of these same genres, rnb has had just as long a history, it doesn't seem to get the attention the other strains do, historically at least. Maybe people think it hasn't been as cutting edge or influential as these other strains, or hasn't matured as a form until recently- perhaps when hip hop and rnb became more closely linked?

I guess it's not a style or period too closely related to what's usually discussed here, but if anyone has some special knowledge in this area and feels like sharing ...
 
swears

swears

preppy-kei
I'm listening to quite a lot of 89-93 Swing recently. Bobby Brown, Bel Biv DeVoe, Adina Howard, all that Teddy Riley sounding stuff I was a bit too young to be into at the time.
What was the main break between the Swing sound and the more staccatto Timbaland style? I gather it was around '94-'95.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
swears said:
I'm listening to quite a lot of 89-93 Swing recently. Bobby Brown, Bel Biv DeVoe, Adina Howard, all that Teddy Riley sounding stuff I was a bit too young to be into at the time.
What was the main break between the Swing sound and the more staccatto Timbaland style? I gather it was around '94-'95.
Click to expand...

That's a question I really want to know the 'definitive' answer to as well. From reading Reynolds, I always took 'Waterfalls', with its magical drums, to be the seismic shift.

Total ft Timbaland in '97 is an absolute quantum leap too, though.
 
B

borderpolice

Well-known member
early RnB is really cool. various of the big producers now used to be helpers for the old gard. Pharell, for example, used to work for Teddy Riley, inventor of New Jack Swing, and producer for Michael Jackson and Blackstreet.
 
B

borderpolice

Well-known member
swears said:
What was the main break between the Swing sound and the more staccatto Timbaland style? I gather it was around '94-'95.
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an often repeated rumor has it that Timbo was influenced by Dancehall from Jamaica and Jungle/DnB. i'm not sure this is accurate though.
 
B

borderpolice

Well-known member
Omaar said:
What was it that defined this stuff - experimentation with new technologies and production techniques, or a different club scene? Are there seminal tracks that mark out the birth of this genre in contrast to what came before, or was it a fairly steady development in a continuum from soul, funk and disco? It seems that alot of this stuff developed as much out of a disco and funk heritage as anything else, a lot of the producers and artists must have been coming from work in this genre.
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musically this comes from Funk/Disco, i reckon, the funkadelic/clinton type of sound, via the Gap band, but with fairly trad soul vocalisation. + spiced up lyrics, targeted at men.
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Good thread. Is Kevin "Shek'spear" Briggs still working in the field? Haven't heard him being around for a minute.
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
borderpolice said:
musically this comes from Funk/Disco, i reckon, the funkadelic/clinton type of sound, via the Gap band, but with fairly trad soul vocalisation. + spiced up lyrics, targeted at men.
Click to expand...


What about Chicago House?! The vocal splicing in Ralphi Rosario's "You Used to Hold Me", for example? Of course this is gay club music, so no-one in hip-hop/RnB will ever admit the link, but...
 
B

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
borderpolice said:
i'm not sure what you mean by splicing here. the track doesnt sound much like swingbeat.
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Sorry, wasn't being particularly clear, and I think I kinda misread someone's posting too. All i was hypothesising was that a lot of the messing around with vocals and rhythms, plus some of the vocal stylings that defined the Timbaland/'new' RnB style, may have been more heavily influenced by American house music than any of the RnB people are prepared to admit.
 
A

anhhh

Well-known member
Less or more i was aksing myself the same questions about the evolution of modern r'n'b. Not so much about the sonic evolution (working & polishing the textures, and lately using the rhythm as texture) but the socio-economic history and also why the change on the production side. I found useful this article by Marcello Carlin:

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/artic...am-and-lewis-a-warped-british-perspective.htm

Some tracks. Not seminal tracks but an ilustration on sound.

Jam & Lewis
sos band (1983)
http://www.mytempdir.com/858948
alexander mcneal (1985)
http://www.mytempdir.com/858983
janet jackson (1986)
http://www.mytempdir.com/858920

Teddy Riley

Or the new jack swing sound

(the sound was first in Keith Sweat's "Make It Last Forever")

guy (1988)
http://www.mytempdir.com/859018

the evolution in textures and also how it sounded when Timbo was starting his career

blackstreet(1996)
http://www.mytempdir.com/858999



(about socio-economics reasons: http://www.popmatters.com/music/features/050603-randb.shtml

but take it with care, i don't believe some of the arguments of the guy)
 
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A

Ach!

Turd on the Run
Weird! Was just thinking about this subject last week, especially in relation to Jam & Lewis / Teddy Riley productions. I think my curiosity was initially sparked by hearing J-Lo's 'Get Right' on the radio for the first time in a while and being reminded that the production (especially the sax sample) sounds so early 90s rnb.
 
E

Edward

+
I reckon early most 80s soul/funk/r&b is very far from modern R&B.
I think the important changes that happened were:

Drum Machines - obviously

Prince - cos he used drum machines in a funky and brutal way and cos he helped Jam & Lewis along - "Hot Thing" "Sign O The Times" "Kiss" etc.

Hip Hop & Miami Bass / Planet Rock etc - made it acceptable to make really "empty" records - just a beat and a voice

Mantronix -"Got To Have Your Love" - minimal drum machine & bassline + vocals, and "that" snare sound which was on loads of late 80s/early 90s r&b. An early example of what is basically a hip hop production but with a soulful vocal.

Jam & Lewis - went solo and produced SOS band etc but the big one was Janet Jackson's "Control" because of the sparseness and funkiness, getting close to what came next -

New Jack Swing - largely Teddy Riley, amazing work with Guy, Keith Sweat etc and then started Blackstreet. His work on Michael Jackson's "Dangerous" is pretty mindblowing. Also Gene Griffin's stuff with Bobby Brown...

Timbaland & Missy, Total etc etc seemed amazingly fresh and new at the end of the 90s

I'm sure I missed something in between swing and timbo though, what was going on?
 
M

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
All of the above, but I'd swing in that horrible Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam record...also Tashan on Def Jam and Oran 'Juice' Jones. Dunno who produced any of em and too tired to check at moment.
I'd also give a mention to Pete Waterman for 'Say I'm Your Number One' by Princess and Soul to Soul.
 
P

PappaWheelie

Member
borderpolice said:
an often repeated rumor has it that Timbo was influenced by Dancehall from Jamaica and Jungle/DnB. i'm not sure this is accurate though.
Click to expand...

Despite the rhythmic similarities, Timbo has denied any inspiration from D&B time and time again. My fave quote from his is "i got nothin from no drum and no bass".

CLASSIC.

The probelm with this thread is the use of a subjective word as "modern". "Old School" and modern are relative to the person you're asking.

But Edward gave a damned good primer. Prince's use of the Linndrum paved the way for a lot during the time of P-Funk and Zapp - check out the liner notes of the Rhino/Skanless Electro series disc 1. He paints it...his mom hated this new non-melodic funk that P-Funk was, but it was seen as new and exciting by him. This was my entrance to it all too.

P-Funk, Zapp, and Prince gave way to 80's Boogie and general drum machine R&B, Jam & Lewis (obv Prince related, but 80's chartbusting), Teddy Riley (new jack swing), and just as things got to MOR in the early 90's, Timbaland came along paving the way for Neptunes et al.

To me, "modern" is 1996>...the year when Puffy's watered down rap was winning out and Timbo souped up R&B. This reaaranged the structure of what was acceptible in (American) urban music.

Prior to that, the Keep It Real campaign in Hip-Hop seemed to be dominant, chastizing R&B producers for ripping off Hip-Hop (Top Billin' beat used in Mary J Blige's Real Love) and advising rappers against "tarnishing their cred" by appearing on R&B records.

Modern to me means Hip-Hop producers can also produce R&B, and if they decide to produce a Mickey Mouse club kid who' just came of age, it's 100% accepted -- the shift from generation X to generation Y via teen markets.
 
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