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Buick6
10-09-2006, 12:33 AM
Interesting article about the Irish attitude:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/760481.html

NOTE: Thanks for deleting the thread TWICE 'free thinking' Dissensans!:eek:

D84
10-09-2006, 01:02 AM
OK Buick6, what exactly is your point?

The IRA and the PLO are/were both engaged in resisting colonialist occupiers? That there are some in both organisations who are also anti-semitic? How does this affect the validity of resisting neo-colonialism?

I feel as though I've argued the tits off this Israel problem on other boards, but if you want an argument please feel free to articulate an argument and post it.

Meanwhile if you like links read this and weep (http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/09/list-of-collective-massacres.html).

D7_bohs
10-09-2006, 09:48 AM
What the fuck is your point, Buick? yes there was a subterranean anti- semitic current in Irish republicanism; it's long disappeared as even the article you cite admits. What you think this has to do with Droid's or my opposition to recent Israeli actions escapes me - I'm not a republican for a start and I would think a majority of those in Ireland opposed to Israeli actions probably arent either

Grievous Angel
10-09-2006, 10:12 AM
I am appalled by Buick6's determined attempt to label the Irish as anti-semitic.

You've poisoned the atmosphere here with snide bigotry, ad hominem attacks and a refusal to engage in reasoned debate. In other words, you're not abiding by the principles that are at the core of Dissensus."Free" speech is not hate speech.

Simultaneously you have repeatedly asserted that you are "leaving".

Are you really sure you want to be here?

Buick6
10-09-2006, 10:17 AM
How does this affect the validity of resisting neo-colonialism?

Meanwhile if you like links read this and weep (http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2006/09/list-of-collective-massacres.html).

Hey lets just not forget those wonderful Islamic 'republics' when the dust settles, OK?

john eden
10-09-2006, 02:14 PM
I would like to point out that I don't believe in free speech.

That article is nonsense of the highest order. "The Irish" > the loopy distortions about Irish Republicanism written there.

Your point is nonsense of the highest order.

zhao
11-09-2006, 05:05 AM
Buick, are you trying to dissuade or inspire anti-semitism?

Buick6
11-09-2006, 08:06 AM
Buick, are you trying to dissuade or inspire anti-semitism?

I'm trying to 'out' it, and I seem to be doing a great job.

You guys are fantastic passive-aggressives.:mad:

martin
11-09-2006, 08:58 AM
Oh come on, this is an anti-racist ticking off from an Aussie. A bit like Peter Sutcliffe lecturing on womens' rights.

john eden
11-09-2006, 09:04 AM
I'm trying to 'out' it, and I seem to be doing a great job.

You guys are fantastic passive-aggressives.:mad:

Right then, I shall put my moderator hat on.

Questions:

1) Have you personally experienced anti-semitism on Dissensus? If so, please provide evidence via a link to the post(s) concerned.

2) Have you witnessed anti-semitism, in a more general manner, on Dissensus? If so, please provide evidence via a link to the post(s) concerned.

I will take great pleasure in banning anyone who racially abuses other posters or uses racist language on Dissensus.

Or stirs shit by making false accusations of racism. Which brings us to these questions:

a) Do you believe that anti-semitism is an inhererent characteristic of Irish culture?

b) Do you believe that anti-semitism is synonymous with criticism of Israel?

I would be grateful if you could respond to these questions promptly and fully so that this unfortunate episode can be put behind us.

EDIT - the new board template makes it harder to link directly to individual posts. You may prefer to quote excerpts from threads here, and then provide a link to the thread concerned.

hundredmillionlifetimes
16-09-2006, 06:52 AM
Snip snip, cut cut, hack hack ...

(Racist garbage - as spewed forth by the Punch-back of the Sydney Opera House - snipped ...)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Punch_Anti-Irish_propaganda_%281867%29_Guy_Fawkes.jpg/445px-Punch_Anti-Irish_propaganda_%281867%29_Guy_Fawkes.jpg



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Were you born an asshole, or did you have to work at it?

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http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/scientific.gif


In 1860 the first live adult gorilla arrived at the London Zoo just after Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species had been published. Victorians flocked to see it and debate the relationship of humans to animals. In 1862 the British magazine Punch published "The Missing Link" a satire attacking Irish immigrants: "A gulf certainly, does appear to yawn between the Gorilla and the Negro. The woods and wilds of Africa do not exhibit an example of any intermediate animal. But in this, as in many other cases, philosophers go vainly searching abroad for that which they could readily find if they sought for it at home. A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder ladden with a hod of bricks."

Precious Cuts
16-09-2006, 11:58 PM
wow... this is bullshit.

I'm a first generation Canadian descended from the Comerfords of Kilkenny County. The Irish side of my family is extremely nationalistic and devoutly Roman Catholic. My great grandfather witnessed bloody sunday. The Comerfords are well known for refusing to convert to protestantism (and therefore losing our land), have had some fairly high profile figures in the resistance, and even made an appearance in James Joyce's Ulysses.

I'm not an expert, but I've grown up surrounded by Irish-catholic-republican culture my whole life and I can say I've never encountered any anti-semitism whatsoever. My grandfather hated the "bloody masons" his whole life, but I never encountered anything remotely anti-semitic in his hours and hours of rants about Irish history.

I'm sure there are Irish anti-semites, but I highly doubt that there are more than in any other country.

swears
17-09-2006, 01:08 AM
Yes, I grew up Catholic with Scouse Irish relations on my mum's side and I can never once remember hearing anything anti-semitic either.

Precious Cuts
17-09-2006, 04:13 AM
Oh come on, this is an anti-racist ticking off from an Aussie. A bit like Peter Sutcliffe lecturing on womens' rights.

actually it's almost more absurd, given Mel Gibson's recent drunk-driving anti-semitic PR disaster

sherief
17-09-2006, 11:25 PM
Rabble rousing anti-Irish posts? Has Dissensus gone from "Big Other" to "Oh, Brother" ?

Buick6
19-09-2006, 10:32 AM
Right then, I shall put my moderator hat on.

Questions:

1) Have you personally experienced anti-semitism on Dissensus? If so, please provide evidence via a link to the post(s) concerned.

TO me personally no. Other forms of abuse yes, but I got a thick skin ofor shit like that.

If you wanna get political, well then, expect violence, fights, screaming and not much achieved, ever.


2) Have you witnessed anti-semitism, in a more general manner, on Dissensus? If so, please provide evidence via a link to the post(s) concerned.

Yes. Though post-modernists would detract that statement as criticism's of the POLICIES of the Israeli state, does not per-se equate with anti-SEMITISM. However, the term 'racism' when applied to ZIPNISM is quite vague, according to this info of Wikipedia:

Defenders of Zionism disagree with the identification of Zionism with racism on a number of grounds. They hold that the basis of the charge is too vague, as the views of Zionist groups differ widely from each other (see Types of Zionism). They also disagree on the basis that Palestinians and Jews are not racially distinct from each other, and that Israeli Jews themselves are racially "mixed": nearly half of Israel's Jews come from Arab countries, and there are almost 100,000 black Jews from Ethiopia. Thus even if Zionism discriminates against Arabs, such discrimination cannot accurately be termed racist, but rather ethnic and/or cultural. Defenders of Zionism also argue that discrimination based on culture or ethnicity is a fact in almost all countries, and that any discrimination in Israel, including discrimination between and among Jewish groups, is similarly based on such differences, and is not an inevitable consequence of Zionism. They also argue that, in stark contrast to the situation in neighboring Arab countries, Arab citizens of Israel can vote in free elections, are represented in the Israeli parliament and enjoy a much higher standard of living than Arabs in Arab countries, and that most differences in income between Israeli Jews and Arabs have more to do with a difference in educational background than would be likely to result from discrimination, either by the government or by private actors. They also point out that while perhaps 700,000 Muslims either fled or were forced out of Israel upon the creation of the State, almost a million Jews were forced out of Muslim controlled lands and fled to Israel. (Muslims are free to vote in Israel, and have their own MK's, while Jews are forbidden citizenship in many Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia and Jordan.)


I will take great pleasure in banning anyone who racially abuses other posters or uses racist language on Dissensus.

Or stirs shit by making false accusations of racism. Which brings us to these questions:

a) Do you believe that anti-semitism is an inhererent characteristic of Irish culture?

Ireland like most European culutres has a fine, though not outrageous history of anti-Semitism. Sure they're not as bad as the rest of Europe, but they are not much better either:

As one of the few countries where there had been no anti-Jewish violence in Europe, Ireland became home to several thousand Jews fleeing from Lithuania and other parts of Eastern Europe in the face of the violent pogroms in Tsarist Russia. By 1891 the census counted 2,000 Jews; the 1901 census included almost 4,000.

Sadly, the lack of discrimination disappeared in 1904 at the urging of a Redemptorist priest whose sermons denounced the Jews in Ireland, and presented them as a threat to Christian children. He went on to call for a boycott of Jewish tradesmen in Limerick and effectively forced their withdrawal from the city and resettlement in Cork. (The Bishop dealt with Father Creagh quietly; he was sent first to Belfast and then in 1906 to the Philippines.)

Ireland was given an opportunity to welcome the victims of anti-Jewish violence again during the Holocaust of the 1930s and 1940s. Unfortunately, Eamon De Valera, Irish Taoiseach from 1932-1948, who counted the Jewish Isaac Herzog among his close friends, did not seem able to step aside from his staunch view of Irish neutrality to assist Jews in a meaningful way. In fact, Charles Bewley, the De Valera government's Irish Minister in Berlin from 1933-39, was so pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish that he denied and delayed visas for Jews seeking travel to Ireland.

It wasn't until the 1990s that the Irish government took steps to make amends for the lack of assistance Ireland provided during those years. In 1995, Taoiseach John Bruton admitted Ireland's indifference toward the victims of the Holocaust and spoke out to honor the memories of the European Jews who died in it.

In spite of the lack of significant Jewish immigration during the second quarter of the 20th century, the Irish Jewish population reached its height of almost 6,000 in the years following World War II. There have been several contributing factors to the steady decline since then. Intermarriage was the first problem. Jews marrying Catholics in the middle part of the 20th century would have been expected to convert. In later years, intermarriage would mean at least that any children born to the marriages would be raised as Catholics. The establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 led to emigration of many Irish Jews, a trend that continues to this day. Finally, through much of the 20th century young Irish men and women of all faiths felt drawn away from Ireland in search of economic opportunity. Irish Jews were no different in this regard.

By 1998, the Jewish population in Ireland was down to just over 1,000. Most of those live in the Dublin area, where there are two Orthodox communities and a Progressive community.


b) Do you believe that anti-semitism is synonymous with criticism of Israel?

Depends what the outcomes of the criticsms are trying to achienve, since they don't seem to be achieving peace. The 'war' seems to be more of a moral issue, though the real kicker is when the terrorism spills out of the region, because, quite simply it works. I mean you don't see the Tamil tigers blowing themselves up in British underground stations do you?


I would be grateful if you could respond to these questions promptly and fully so that this unfortunate episode can be put behind us.

EDIT - the new board template makes it harder to link directly to individual posts. You may prefer to quote excerpts from threads here, and then provide a link to the thread concerned.[/QUOTE]

Woebot
19-09-2006, 10:42 AM
Right then, I shall put my moderator hat on.

Questions:

1) Have you personally experienced anti-semitism on Dissensus? If so, please provide evidence via a link to the post(s) concerned.

2) Have you witnessed anti-semitism, in a more general manner, on Dissensus? If so, please provide evidence via a link to the post(s) concerned.

I will take great pleasure in banning anyone who racially abuses other posters or uses racist language on Dissensus.

Or stirs shit by making false accusations of racism. Which brings us to these questions:

a) Do you believe that anti-semitism is an inhererent characteristic of Irish culture?

b) Do you believe that anti-semitism is synonymous with criticism of Israel?

I would be grateful if you could respond to these questions promptly and fully so that this unfortunate episode can be put behind us.

EDIT - the new board template makes it harder to link directly to individual posts. You may prefer to quote excerpts from threads here, and then provide a link to the thread concerned.

i'd be interested to see what buick has to say on these subjects

john eden
19-09-2006, 10:42 AM
Yes. Though post-modernists would detract that statement as criticism's of the POLICIES of the Israeli state, does not per-se equate with anti-SEMITISM.

Thank you for clarifying the situation. Personally I do not believe that criticism of the Zionist state or philosophy is per se anti-semitic. I believe that all states should be criticised. I don't know if the other moderators share this view.

I would like to reiterate that if you witness anti-semitic behaviour in Dissensus that you should report the post concerned to the moderators by using the "report" link which is on each post.

john eden
19-09-2006, 10:46 AM
Ireland like most European culutres has a fine, though not outrageous history of anti-Semitism. Sure they're not as bad as the rest of Europe, but they are not much better either:

I am not sure that this answer my question. Most of it seems to be a history of jews in Ireland.

Do you believe that anti-semitism is an inhererent characteristic of Irish culture?

Nobody is arguing against the fact that there have been examples of anti-semitism in the history of Ireland.

droid
19-09-2006, 11:04 AM
I dont know whats more pathetic. The sub-adolescent trolling, or the attempt to make a decent argument. Most people stick with slandering individuals on forums - you feel the need to slander an entire race of people with ludicrous accusations of racism based on a couple of amateurish quotes youve dredged up from google... all as part of some impotent vendetta against someone who barely even posts here anymore.

Its kinda sad really. :o

For a more balanced view: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Ireland which comes closer to the truth - that there have been minor and isolated incidents of anti-semitism in ireland over the centuries, but that Ireland has also been practically the only safe haven for European Jews, with almost no racially motivated violence over a period of hundreds of years... a virtual Zion in comparison to the rest of the continent - not that the facts matter to you.

BTW - You forgot to credit the source that you cut and pasted that rubbish from...


John - stop wasting your wrists on this muppet! Hes not worth a millisecond more of your precious time. Im only here because he's obviously looking for a response from me - now hes got it he can go back to his usual inanities and stop making such a prat out of himself... :cool:

noel emits
19-09-2006, 11:14 AM
This has nothing to do with 'The Jews' or 'The Irish' - I mean I'm not being funny or nuffink but is there a tendency for 'Australasians' on international message boards to exhibit some weird kind of persecution or inferiority complex???? What's that all about? Do you feel excluded from world cultural affairs or something? Consider yourselves lucky ;)

Sorry, I'm just being a wind-up and making HUGE generalisations based on a very small sample of conspicuous loud-mouths.

It's not pretty is it.

jenks
20-09-2006, 08:18 AM
Is that the best you could come up with Buick?

It seemed to take a long time for you to post a response to Eden and then it was a cut and paste job that my Y7s wouldn't have had the brass neck to submit for homework.

Very poor.

Your continued harrassment of Droid - accusations of all sorts solely because he is Irish is pretty shabby.

Buick6
20-09-2006, 08:40 AM
Oh come on, this is an anti-racist ticking off from an Aussie. A bit like Peter Sutcliffe lecturing on womens' rights.

This quote is hilarious. Considering that many of the white-colonialists of Australia were, *cough,cough* IRISH CONVICTS! Heck our fantastic local sport Aussie Rules is a derivation a GAELIC FOOTBALL!

john eden
20-09-2006, 09:16 AM
This quote is hilarious. Considering that many of the white-colonialists of Australia were, *cough,cough* IRISH CONVICTS! Heck our fantastic local sport Aussie Rules is a derivation a GAELIC FOOTBALL!

You're just here for an argument, aren't you Buick6?

Please continue with your more amusing contributions to discussions about music.

And consider yourself warned. If you recommence chucking about unfounded accusations of racism, then I will ban you.

If you wish to add to this thread then please edit your post above, or PM me.