Orhan Pamuk

IdleRich

IdleRich
Anyone got any opinions on him? I guess my taste is defective because I finished his book Snow the other day, spent some time slating it to a couple of friends and then opened the next day's paper to see that he'd been awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
I'm exaggerating slightly, I don't hate his books but - and I think I've said it before on here - I find them very difficult to read. I can't tell if it's something to do with the translation, a non-european way of writing that I'm not used to or simply his style but the extreme equivocation that the characters display always introduces an unwelcome distance between them and me. I find this extremely frustrating because he deals with interesting themes and at times deals with them really well. Bits of his books genuinely do touch you or make you think and I always feel that I'm not very far at all away from loving them. But I don't.
Anyone else?
 

John Doe

Well-known member
I know what you mean actually. I read His Name is Red (is that the title? the one with 'Red' in the title anyway) 'bout three years back and although I could see what he was doing with the constantly shifting narrator found that I had to really struggle to finish the book. He's a novelist whose work I respect without ever feeling entirely enthused or warm about his achievements. I couldn't help thinking that he was given the Nobel Prize as a method of protecting him: after all, he'd faced the most bizarre trial for 'unTurkish' sentiments (whatever that means) and it seems that there's a particuarly hardline and backward looking cadre of the Turkish establishment who are out to get him as they see him as too Western looking, too outspoken, too ready to raise difficult issues (did he make comments about the Armenian massacare? Maybe...)

I think, during the trial, he felt genuinely frightened for his safety. Perhaps now, like other dissidents before him, winning the Nobel will afford him a degree of protection from those who seek to persecute him.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I know what you mean actually. I read His Name is Red (is that the title? the one with 'Red' in the title anyway) 'bout three years back and although I could see what he was doing with the constantly shifting narrator found that I had to really struggle to finish the book"
I think it's "My Name is Red" but yeah, totally agree with the sentiment. That one I found even harder to engage with than Snow, I had a two week window to read it in before returning it to someone and it was a real struggle but it must have had something because I didn't give up on him totally.
It wasn't just the constantly shifting narrator but the way that all of the characters were so "stylised" (perhaps in some way to reflect the debates about the (stylised) Islamic illustrations versus the lifelike Venitian painting) which made it very hard for me to engage with the characters or to see it as more than an intellectual game.

"He's a novelist whose work I respect without ever feeling entirely enthused or warm about his achievements"
Again, I agree with you here. I want to read about these important themes of East vs West, secular vs religious etc etc and at times he is right on the money but the overall effect is somewhat cold.

"did he make comments about the Armenian massacare?"
Yeah, exactly, he did retract them but as I undestand it the government also kind of backpedalled as they were in an embarrasing situation where they were hoping to show their human rights record was improving just as they were trying their most famous novelist for speaking his mind.
Glad it's not just me who feels like this then. I should say that Snow did get better at the end when it changed to the perspective of Pamuk himself. It was certainly quite touching at the end and even made you see some of what had gone before in a different light.
 

dogger

Sweet Virginia
i'm really surprised to see so much hate for pamuk here. i've read the two novels in discussion here - /MNIR/ and /Snow/ - and i greatly enjoyed them both...../MNIR/ took a bit of getting into, but really that's the price you pay for formal trickery like the rotating narrative perspective.....i think perhaps pamuk's greates achievement is taking extremely un-promising forms (a HISTORICAL WHODUNNIT ffs - that's in the same category as /Cadfael/...) and making them into superbly crafted works of art. /MNIR/ is a little content-heavy, arguably, but the novel doesn't suffer from this in the way that e.g. houellebecq's do (where the characters are merely ciphers for elucidating various themes, and fail to convince on almost every level). pamuk also does setting as well as any writer i can think of - the historical backdrop is utterly convincing, without seeming archaic, and it isn't allowed to dominate the novel, as often happens when writers get caught up in their research and are desperate to cram it all in....

/Snow/ is fantastic too - a beautifully unifying central image; genuine, un-sentimentalised emotion and a perfectly paced narrative....what's not to like? well, arguably the fact that the novel discusses Big Political Ideas; but the way pamuk handles them shows us that he's not a polemicist a la david hare or late pinter (uggggggh): instead he's interested in showing the banality and emptiness of political revolution and idealogues, a la stoppard's /Coast of Utopia/ or even clough's /Amours de Voyage/....the way he makes the revolution happen on stage, as a piece of theatre spilling over into the "real" world, is just brilliant.

i can't really comment on the translation, not knowing any turkish, but the fact that he is massively popular in turkey maybe suggests it's more readable in the original....or maybe it's just cos he's published by faber & faber and classed as "serious lit. fiction" ....
 
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benjybars

village elder.
I think the translation thing is very important.. i know the black book just had a new translation which is considered superior to the original. I thnk the translation is why i couldn't get into my name is red.

Anyway, I loved Snow, and my dad is a bit obsessed with Pamuk at the moment (even keeping a file of clippings from newspapers) so I'm always hearing about him.
 

ripley

Well-known member
i'm really surprised to see so much hate for pamuk here.

I don't see any hate. I see a lot of people saying that they respect his work but can't get into it.

FWIW, I feel a bit the same way. I enjoyed aspects of My Name Is Red, especially the historical and artistic scenarios as described, but I found it difficult going in terms of connecting to anyone or feeling motivated to go on with it. MInd you, Moby Dick is my favorite book, and I'm a huge Russian Lit fan, so don't think I'm easily daunted..

Snow I couldn't finish because it felt unbearably sad, and I couldn't face it at the time I was reading it.

I do see a lot of craft and energy, but I find it difficult to connect to. I don't think it;s because it has Big Scary Political Ideas necessarily. I think it's a question of style. It may be that translation has an effect, it may be that the style is just aimed at different targets than what I enjoy.

It seems like the Nobels don't prize accessibility, anyway. At least not my kind - didn't Saramago win? I couldn't manage him either.. I was younger then, of course!
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
PHP:
"I don't see any hate. I see a lot of people saying that they respect his work but can't get into it."
Exactly.
Dogger - I'm surprised that you say that the historical whodunnit is an unpromising form, the backdrop was part of what attracted to the novel. Cadfael might be a HW but so is The Name of the Rose.
Again, I don't have a problem with the novels being "content heavy" it was the lack of connection to the characters that I found problematic. I also found the arguments that they have frustrating; one character says something nonsensical, another replies nonsensically and it goes off on tangent after tangent. I guess that's how people tend to argue but it doesn't really get anywhere.
It's strange though that a lot of people say that Houellebecq's characters are merely ciphers whereas I don't think that at, much less so than Pamuk's. Or maybe that's not quite right, I didn't find Pamuk's characters ciphers, I just thought that they didn't feel real, not because they were mouthpieces for ideas just because they weren't like people.

Snow/ is fantastic too - a beautifully unifying central image; genuine, un-sentimentalised emotion and a perfectly paced narrative....
I'd agree with some of that but totally disagree about the perfect pacing of the narrative. I would say the exact opposite.
I don't know anything about Turkish or the translation. In MNIR there WERE a couple of sentences that seemed clunky or where the word chosen was inappropriate but my suggestion that the translation might be poor was merely a way of being charitable in suggesting that the reason I find him hard to read may not be down to him.
 

D7_bohs

Well-known member
- didn't Saramago win? I couldn't manage him either.. I was younger then, of course!


Which Saramago did you try? A Year in the Death of Ricardo Reis is a wonderful book, I think. Re. Pamuk - I realise I've been put off by a negative judgment from a friend on I can't even remember which book; will find something by him and give him a try now
 

dogger

Sweet Virginia
ok - "hate" was overstating it slightly....

i think you have both missed the point i was making re: content and engagement with political issues. i sit firmly on the "form" side of the fence in the old form/content debate (hence my dislike of david hare): there is nothing i hate more than writer using a novel/play/poem as a soap box from which to espouse her political opinions. and so i was expecting not to particularly enjoy /snow/, given the reviews i had read about it, describing the book as "essential political reading for our times" and so on. what i found was quite different, for the reasons given in my first post....so, ripley, i'm not for a second (patronisingly) suggesting that your enjoyment of pamuk is marred because of a failure to engage with/understand these Big Issues - this is in fact precisely the attitude i despise!

@ idlerich: i really don't see the problem with the characters. did you, for example, find ipek's decision not to leave with ka for germany unbelievable? sad, yes, tragic even, but entirely plausible. and i found that /MNIR/ pulled off the tricky feat of instilling the sensibilities of the time on the characters, without making them appear completely alien or sacrificing their plausibility.

and i don't agree that the dialogue is ultra-realistic, as you say. just compare it with e.g. adam thirlwell's, where you get a "transcription" of how people really talk, and the result is inarticulate, rambling and full of non-sequiturs. (a valid technique, incidentally, but not one employed by pamuk)

as for the form of the historical whodunnit - well, it's the first one i've enjoyed; maybe i just need to read more....;)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Don't read this if you aint read the book.

"i think you have both missed the point i was making re: content and engagement with political issues. i sit firmly on the "form" side of the fence in the old form/content debate (hence my dislike of david hare): there is nothing i hate more than writer using a novel/play/poem as a soap box from which to espouse her political opinions."
I'm not sure, I (think we all?) agree with you there. I'm not criticising him for that, I don't think that Pamuk uses his characters as a mouthpiece for his views, I just find his characters emotionless.
I agree with you that the bit where Ipek chooses not to go with him is quite powerful (especially so when you find out why). What I found annoying are the earlier scenes where she seems to change her opinion every second - will she sleep with him, won't she, who cares? etc This seems to be even more the case with Ka, every paragraph is filled with things saying (I'm paraphrasing from memory) "He realised that this was the happiest that he had ever been and this thought made him sad and he realised that he wasn't really happy so he wasn't sad." This gets very wearing throughout the course of the book.

"and i don't agree that the dialogue is ultra-realistic, as you say."
I'm not saying that it is ultra-realistic I'm saying that it's annoying - possibly as a consequence of trying to make it more realistic, possibly not. At times I would have preferred it if WAS the author making a point through the characters rather than just letting them ramble aimlessly at cross-purposes to each other.
I don't mean to be overly negative here, what I'm saying is that I quite enjoyed the book but I thought that it was held back by a number of large problems and because it was so near to being great I found this especially frustrating.
 

dogger

Sweet Virginia
I don't think that Pamuk uses his characters as a mouthpiece for his views, I just find his characters emotionless.

emotionless?? /snow/ is about, among other things, the difficulty of correctly interpreting one's own emotions. this means that the characters (in particular ka) are often unsure of how they feel emotionally. but that's not the same as being emotionless. in fact it's only by thinking about emotion in this way that we can avoid sentimentality, the falsifying of feeling....

I agree with you that the bit where Ipek chooses not to go with him is quite powerful (especially so when you find out why). What I found annoying are the earlier scenes where she seems to change her opinion every second - will she sleep with him, won't she, who cares? etc This seems to be even more the case with Ka, every paragraph is filled with things saying (I'm paraphrasing from memory) "He realised that this was the happiest that he had ever been and this thought made him sad and he realised that he wasn't really happy so he wasn't sad." This gets very wearing throughout the course of the book.

no, it's a meditation on the transient nature of happiness.
 

dogger

Sweet Virginia
btw it's great to actually have a bit of a debate going on the literature board - more of this please!

:)
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"emotionless?? /snow/ is about, among other things, the difficulty of correctly interpreting one's own emotions. this means that the characters (in particular ka) are often unsure of how they feel emotionally. but that's not the same as being emotionless"
Fair point. Emotionless was the wrong word on my part, I didn't mean that the characters had no emotions, I meant that because I couldn't believe in the characters I couldn't connect to or care about their emotions (at least in parts). Sorry, I explained myself particularly badly there.
As for that part being a meditation on the transient nature of happiness, it's not that particular passage I take exception to, it's the fact that that sort of equivocation happens so often throughout the book that I stopped knowing (or caring) what he really thought.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Strangely enough I just got this email from my Dad. Must be 'cause I mentioned to my mum the other day that I was reading Snow. I have to say that I don't especially agree with a lot of what is in the article (although he is arguing the same side as me) but I thought it might be of interest:

"Thought this would be of interest to you. It was sent to me by a chap who
was on holiday with us. He saw it in the Wall Street Journal/

Read this article in today’s Wall Street Journal. Having read Pamuk’s
Istanbul, I did not really like it. This article reflects my exact sentiment
about the latest Nobel Prize winner for literature.

By Melik Kaylan (Wall Street Journal)

When the Turkish controversial (and novelist) Orhan Pamuk won the Nobel
Prize for literature, no doubt the awarding committee felt the usual frisson
of delight as they watched the world quarrel, yet again, about their choice.
They certainly know how to push buttons. Last year, they chose Harold
Pinter, who had written nothing of consequence for decades. Instead he’d
turned his life into an extended political rant against the US, and that
clearly appealed to the Swedes. The award itself, one might conclude, became
an act of agitprop. Still, in his heyday, Mr. Pinter did do great things for
the language and literature of theatre, no matter now long ago. So what has
Orhan Pamuk done?

If the Nobel jurists, in awarding their prize, droned rather opaquely about
Mr. Pamuk’s qualities – he has “discovered new symbols for the clash and
interlacing of cultures” – who can blame the committee? I have read Mr.
Pamuk’s novels in both English and Turkish and I couldn’t tell you now, or
even while reading, what happens in most of them. Mine is scarcely a unique
reaction. Maureen Freely, one of his translators, cheerfully avowed in a
recent interview that you need a good memory to follow the plot of “The
Black book.” Or did she mean “My name is Red,” in which a coin, a tree, dog
and a dead man (among others) internarrate an impenetrable mystery over
hundreds of pages? She could equally have meant “he White Castle” – Kafka,
any one? - where the sultan’s chief engineer tries, with Sisyphean
longueurs, to relocate a giant cannon up a hill for an entire book. I
believe that’s what happens. You’re really not supposed to know. You are
only the reader. The text refers to itself and to other texts; we are merely
eavesdroppers. Horace Engdahl, the Nobel Committee’s permanent secretary,
has commented fearlessly about his own preferred criterion for selection,
namely, “literature that has witnessed reality.” Reality?

All of which, one might say, adds up to the literary equivalent of the Enron
Syndrome: Nobody knows what’s going on but they’re in the temple of
smartness and too ashamed to admit their stupidity before the next guy. Mr.
Pamuk’s obscuration is the more impressive for being utterly beyond one’s
ken; the percipient Nobel selector compliments himself by discerning the
“reality” we cannot.

The pity of it all is that Turkey desperately lacks a writer to explain
itself to the world. Deplored by other Muslims for being too Western, and by
the West for being neither Iran nor Switzerland, Turks remain a worrisome
mystery to others. In “Snow,” his last fiction work, Mr. Pamuk talks most
clearly about contemporary Turkey, with its religious-secular-ethnic rifts,
but he does so with so much Kafka/Borges/post-Theory tomfoolery that it
reveals more his literary ambitions that his country.

Which is hwy his political adventures ring so false. Some months ago, he was
prosecuted and subsequently acquitted of the crime of “insulting
Turkishness” for talking publicly about the mass deaths of Armenians and
Kurds in years past –something that, as he sees it, nobody else in Turkey
dares to do. Here then is Mr. Engdahl’s “witnessed reality”: It has nothing
to do with literary quality, everything to do with politics. Trouble is, all
Turks already know and talk about these issues; and for many Americans,
that’s all they know about Turkey. (one wonders how well Mr. Pamuk would be
tolerated if he “insulted: Iraqis, or Russians, or Syrians, or Iranians, as
an inhabitants of those neighboring countries.) So, many Turks long ago
realized that Orhan Pamuk writes in Turkish for foreign plaudits. He has
taught anyone anything they didn’t already know, but he has made precisely
the right noise that the “progressive” arbiters of taste in Europe like to
hear. And it flatters their own semi-informed sense of activism to reward
him for it.

(Mr. Kaylan, born in Istanbul, is a writer in New York.)"
 

John Doe

Well-known member
Mr Kaylan is a sad and embittered little dope, obviously. His appraisal of Paluk can be paraphrased thus: I don't understand him; because I don't understand him, I don't believe anyone else understands him; thus there's nothing to understand, and therefore he's a fraud.

Pitiful really.
 

jenks

thread death
Yeah! Where's Jenks, I always enjoy his contributions?

Cheers that made me smile - i'm drowning under a pile of work (marking, preparation, open evenings) and also feeling disenchanted with posting stuff about Lit and watching it fizzle out.

However, i have really enjoyed this discussion - I tried MNIR and found it really difficult, actually took it back to the library unfinished - very rare for me indeed, i couldn't get a hook into it - something to do with characters not resonating with me. I have Snow on my shelves and since the Nobel i have vowed to read it.

Have much to say about the latest Mitchell but i'll post that in the correct place.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Mr Kaylan is a sad and embittered little dope"
I've got to say that I found a lot of that article somewhat misguided and vicious. Although as I said before I'm not a massive Pamuk, I don't really recognise him in the description given in the article.

"However, i have really enjoyed this discussion - I tried MNIR and found it really difficult, actually took it back to the library unfinished - very rare for me indeed, i couldn't get a hook into it - something to do with characters not resonating with me. I have Snow on my shelves and since the Nobel i have vowed to read it."
Well, despite my reservations I think that Snow is certainly more readable than MNIR. I will have a look for his other books because I can imagine that there could be one (maybe as yet unwritten) that I could really enjoy.
I guess I'd better get on and read that Mitchell book then...
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
Good thread.

My wife (who you may have guessed is the really bookish one in the family) frequently refers to Pamuk (her take: difficult, yes, but ultimately rewarding, and why shouldn't literature be difficult once in a while?) - I've not read any yet, despite frequent encouragement to do so. However, this thread has just tipped my interest enough to give him a go.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"difficult, yes, but ultimately rewarding, and why shouldn't literature be difficult once in a while?"
I think I've given the wrong impression slightly. I thought it was difficult only because it was so unengaging, not in the normal sense that a book can be difficult, I don't really recognise the books described in the New Yorker article.
 
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