The US equivilent to the 'nuum

yeah, hiphop from JA soundsystem/block parties and cutting up 'breaks' with kool Herc and GM Flash to sampling and the evolution to r'n'b rap club bangers. Funny how it still all comes down to breakbeat.

Um no funk or disco in there? And the breakbeat was certainly not the essential (or the only essential) characteristic of hip hop or technoid rnb.

There is a New York hip hop continuum up to a point though, but I don't think you can extend much beyond the boroughs before it starts getting pretty messy.

I've thought about this relationship alot. to what extent is the hardcore continuum a uk thing. obviously london, as the hub of the black atlantic has been it's base, but when the music transcends geography does it stop being part of it. i'm interesting in this idea particularly related to dubstep.

Clubberlang said:

Um no funk or disco in there? And the breakbeat was certainly not the essential (or the only essential) characteristic of hip hop or technoid rnb.

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the whole idea of linearity in a continuum is generally crap in whatever field you apply it to as it doesn't take into account non locality, parallel evolution and the seeming randomness of the uncertainty principle or even serendipity and the epiphany that comes form that.

I'm not saying the breakbeat was the only essential but it is THE musical essential. Without the breaks, that tiny fill between changes in traditional pop song structure and the subsequent breakbeat revolution brought on by cutting and sampling them there wouldn't have been anything to chop up to start a continuum with and it is a common link between both sides of the black atlantic. I wouldn't be surprised if the first beats kool herc beat juggled was the 'amen' or the 'apache'.

Funk and disco were big band relics and as backasswards looking now as much as the nu-indy thing is now. How many actual real instrument playing r'n'b or hiphop bands do you know of ?

And I'd say JA was the hub of the black atlantic cos thats where everything from, race to music to culture to trade to piracy got mashed up and spat out to the americas and europe.

London seems to have this cultural superiority thing that often just isn't justified no matter how much people try using their own subjective bias.

"breakbeat revolution"-heh.

Funk and disco were big band relics and as backasswards looking now as much as the nu-indy thing is now. How many actual real instrument playing r'n'b or hiphop bands do you know of ?

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Ehhhh???????

Plus, I don't think there's any need to talk of a "hub" of the "Black Atlantic," but if we're going to do that, America is it by sheer force of extraordinarily larger numbers, and because our population is descended of the brutally colonized, not comprised mostly emigres from Jamaica. The tension here is still palpable, still a destructive and creative force.

This thread is seriously baffling me.

You know, I've been sick of breakbeats for the last five years, they remind me of the Soundtrack to Blade or something.

swears said:

You know, I've been sick of breakbeats for the last five years, they remind me of the Soundtrack to Blade or something.

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i like the track massive attack did with nas for the blade 2 soundtrack (i against i, iirc). icy cold almost-kraftwerkian electro.

What?

bassnation said:

i like the track massive attack did with nas for the blade 2 soundtrack (i against i, iirc). icy cold almost-kraftwerkian electro.

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That wasn't Nas...that was Mos Def, the two sound NOTHING alike. One.

All the same- Breakbeat is hated for a reason- its very conservative, playsafe music. Its worse than trance in a way, as at least trance has some cheese laden appeal.

people need to distinguish between breakbeats and breakbeat. One is a category of samples, a clean piece of drums without any other instruments on a record, the other is a genre of boring rave music that has very little to do with the former. Do they even use breaks in breaks these days? Sounds like a lot of slow drum and bass to me.

I'd say our continuum is from those soul, funk and disco records into all the hiphop records that were built out of them, with a parallel history of Miami Bass into Crunk in the south. Imo those funk and soul records were an apex of american musicality and musicianship that we haven't seen since. And I'm not talking about jazz mathematics, more about well played, composed, songs for people to listen and dance to.

I dislike Breakbeats and "Breakbeat" or "Breaks music". I don't count taking individual drumsounds from breaks and then writing a new pattern Timbaland-style as a breakbeat.
This stems from just really disliking the sound of real, acoustic drums. It seems so arbitary, there are millions of sounds to use for percussion, why use the Amen, Moby Dick, or Funky Drummer? It's so fucking tired.

I agree - there are many more options for percussive sounds than standard acoustic drums - but a drum kit is an amazingly rich and well balanced thing that like most acoustic instruments has evolved organically to produce effective sound and expression. It's not that arbitrary.

There are also many thousands more 'breakbeats' out there than the standard ones that have been overused. Found some great drums on a Steve Hillage record yesterday.

the undisputed truth said:

the whole idea of linearity in a continuum is generally crap in whatever field you apply it to as it doesn't take into account non locality, parallel evolution and the seeming randomness of the uncertainty principle or even serendipity and the epiphany that comes form that.

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i think theres a lot of truth in this. if you look at the u.s. you can see so many splinters and new directions breaking off, as well as parallel developments, that its more akin to a tree than a linear continuum.

the undisputed truth said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the first beats kool herc beat juggled was the 'amen' or the 'apache'.

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apache was a massive tune in the early hip-hop period

the undisputed truth said:

And I'd say JA was the hub of the black atlantic cos thats where everything from, race to music to culture to trade to piracy got mashed up and spat out to the americas and europe.

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surely not man, the origin has to be africa...is it not that JA was one of the places it touched down and evolved? in tandem with the development of blues and other southern american forms

the undisputed truth said:

London seems to have this cultural superiority thing that often just isn't justified no matter how much people try using their own subjective bias.

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lol i dont agree

my attempt at the primary u.s. continuum would go something like this... (but please feel free to correct me i know relatively little compared to some, its as much to try to get discussion going as anything)

gospel / blues

early soul / rhythm & blues

motown / chess era

70s soul

funk / disco

hip-hop

electro

garage / house (im very hazy as to how exactly this stage went... ive always been intrigued, are there any good books about it yet?)

but the problem is that there are breakaways and then points where it may feed back in again... and really a lot of the time forms would co-exist and develop seperately... look at jazz, bebop, big band through to quincy jones then again into hip-hop.

also, there clearly has to be a separate (although with occassional intersections) thread of evolution which splits off from rhythm and blues, into rock n roll, into rock, into the myriad forms of guitar based music. but that also has a relationship with americana, bluegrass, country and folk, which fed into that strain in the 60s and beyond

I think 'Last Night A DJ Saved My Life' is very good on this narrative. Elgato - where be Jazz?

i mentioned it at the bottom, because im not entirely sure as to how it developed in relation to blues or gospel, whether it was seperate or grew out of them... anyone?

it seems to me that it certainly forms the bulk of a strain which separates and runs in parallel with the other one ive mentioned, before eventually rejoining in some sense with hip-hop