"Sampledelia"

I think Shadow is unfairly derided by association with a lot of actual dreck, (plus his own slide into complete rubbish in terms of his output of late hasn't really helped). He's extremely unfashionable but his first album and the 12"s before it will stand up in ten years (once the "cycle" moves round again). All that Ninja Tune beard fondling stuff can fuck right off tho.

swears said:

It's always the same palette of sounds laid out in about 1990 isn't it? Big rockin' breakbeats, "warm" real instrument samples, library records, generally a grabbag of pre-punk/pre-Kraftwerk sounds that must have been interesting again in the sequencer-driven late 80s. It's an an excuse for the "organic" -ugh- to sneak back into music again in my opinion.

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It's a shame because by definition sampling allows you to use any sound ever made.

Have you heard Mixmaster Morris' (to mention him again) first Irresistible Force LP - Flying High? You might not like it, but it's interesting for the way it's almost entirely constructed from samples of obscure electronic, prog, krautrock, avant classical and concrète records.

Mordant Music's use of samples is pretty fresh though, no? Probably because their take on the 'delia' part is more influenced by spooky TV and static drone etc, than 60s 70s groovy organicism.

swears said:

It's an an excuse for the "organic" -ugh- to sneak back into music again in my opinion.

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Ha ha, and I can't wait for it to return.

I agree to an extent, but the Avalanches album isn't a terribly good example imo. They really were breaking new ground at the time, and that album still sounds as lively as ever.

on a side note I always preferred ATCQ's debut to De la or the JB's...

...way more adventurous in their sample selection

swears said:

How exactly? It just sounded like something that could have come out on Skint in '97.
And in the same context, for the same audience. New ground?

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The difference was that they used more than 1000 samples (if I remember correctly), and combined them in a fresh way. It seems to me that you're recklessly lumping them together with the big-beat mafia just because their samples are occasionally derived from the same sources. I think you can combine the same-old same-old samples into something unique if you're talented enough -- Avalanches were/are.

^^^would you agree it's getting harder and harder to do though as machines gradually remove the need for talent...

i think music does not get much worse than the herbalizer or coldcut ... its just copy and paste, boring, done to death, an artistic cul-de-sac.. i mean its fine to sample of course, as long as you do something interesting with said sample ie layer it with your own beats, shove it in a sampler and cut it up into a new melody...

basically i think sticking a quincy jones riff over a languid "funky" break with an archive sample is just.... pfft. some of the wagon christ stuff makes me want to commit suicide . at least someone like prefuse (who i'm not even especially enamoured with) comes up with some pretty deft combinations of synthesis , sampling/slicing and hand programmed beats.


i think it does work well in tunes with vox tho...but it won't be as fresh as ultramagnetic,public enemy,pharcyde etc etc really... again,ever,regardless of "cycles". burial's useage of samples though, is quite simply next level . i like the mordant and ghost box stuff too.



not trying to start beef either, but ninja tune/skint type stuff is the ultimate studenty twaddle. i can say that being a student now, unfortunately. i can understand the first shadow record's rep though , to an extent, never seen what is so unbelievable about it though...

But I think it's the superior engineering that makes the Avalanches different to everything that came before, and inspirational to much that came after (the mash-up scene must have been influenced by them, for example, I have no proof, but would be glad to be pointed towards some ). "Oh La La" (pure fire!) serves as a good example of your typical big-beat tune actually: One or two chopped-up drumloops (preferably from that sample-cd Norman Cook released, I cannot remember the name), a looped, gritty, 60s or 70s sample, and a corny vocal loop. What Avalanches made different was that they used, say, 50 samples in one song rather than 5 (I wonder if this change had anything to do with the move from hardware to software samplers btw [the latter allowing for as many samples as your harddrive is big]). They were also decidedly less dance-floor orientated than most of the big-beaters.

lazybones said:

basically i think sticking a quincy jones riff over a languid "funky" break with an archive sample is just.... pfft. some of the wagon christ stuff makes me want to commit suicide

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I'm not a huge fan of most of his stuff at all, but I think when Vibert first started doing this (At Atmos / Throbbing Pouch) it did represent a broadening of the sample palette from most hip-hop and trip-hop, and an irreverent adjustment of attitude from the more austere techno and electronica around then. As part of an overall discourse it did have some validity at the time I think.

noel emits said:

I'm not a huge fan of most of his stuff at all, but I think when Vibert first started doing this (At Atmos / Throbbing Pouch) it did represent a broadening of the sample palette from most hip-hop and trip-hop, and an irreverent adjustment of attitude from the more austere techno and electronica around then. As part of an overall discourse it did have some validity at the time I think.

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hmm lukes programming attitude and range of sounds is alot broader than the sampledelia swears is describing definitley, much darker and artificial with lots of off drums, technoish sounds and depth and suchlike, hes a cut above and to the leftfield of sampledelia, although i dont really like the last album he did for ninja, the wagon christ one, that is his weakest moment.
i too have a problem with that kinda spoken word sample over groovy loop thing on the whole.
but then i like an awful alot of sample based music too, alot of it.

Interesting thread, I won't defend the beatz'n'samples crew but I think you have to remember what that 90s thing was all about. Along time ago everyone went clubbing in a big way most weekends and these were the kind of instant rhythms churned out for people pre/post club. Was it meant to last? Of course they sampled stuff,>nick it, slam it together, feel the groove then move on. It was right for the time and probably sounds dull now that everyone can do it and mashups are everywhere. Essentially it was a vibe music, did it make tall claims?

As for the concept of sampling, well would Jungle have happened without it?

Sampling as a concept is ridiculously alive and well, just not in such a straightforward manner (ie- duh Hauntology). Though interestingly a lot of black music appears to have shifted away from sampling towards synthetics.

wonk_vitesse said:

As for the concept of sampling, well would Jungle have happened without it?

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not much good music in the 80's / 90's would have been possible without it, it was a revelation, what i think swears is really getting at is the idea of lightweight meaningless music that uses the means of production of better, more meaningful stuff.
it's weird though that the word organic is used as sampling is anything but 'organic.' No wind is blown down brass tubes and no guitars are strummed. thats a paradox of that whole 'vibe' i guess and indicates why alot of those heads might be listening to folky stuff at the big chill nowdays etc.

gek-opel said:

Sampling as a concept is ridiculously alive and well, just not in such a straightforward manner (ie- duh Hauntology). Though interestingly a lot of black music appears to have shifted away from sampling towards synthetics.

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i have a feeling it will be back or at least the mix will be back. heard jay z's la fayette afro band sampling new un and r n b / pop is using loads of old funk breaks etc.