Rock 'n' roll: more harm than good?

agreed on all accounts but the same can be said of all art (directly politically motivated or not)

I don't think it's possible for any creative act, nor is it its function, to directly instigate any kind of change.

but rather, in art possibilities are glimpsed - a different way to be, to live, to see, to hear, to do.

rock's celebration of hedonism (or at least representation of it), of excess, of ego, etc., sure can be accused of many things, the least of which may be mirroring the status quo of capitalism -- but I think as a reaction to the repressive 1950s it was a fresh idea and experience full of (empty? beside the point) promise... which may have inspired some positive... er... changes.

agree with that zhao... the shrugging off of 50s repression of sex, expression, conformity etc. absolutely vital for its time. theres been a lot of social change in the past 50 years that had to happen, and yeah, it has been coupled with the tide of individualism, but where we are now isn't the end point.

re drugs and hedonism, artists being victims of their own sensitivity and sensibilities isn't a new phenom. i imagine that people emulating them isn't either...

This is one of the most stupid arguments I've ever read on this forum.

Compare this to the rave scene. Look how many people have fucked up their brains on ecstasy and speed. The massive involvement of organised crime in the whole E scene. Every crack-pot hippie vegetable wanting to be a DJ playing other peoples records and trying to palm it off as creativity? The support of the Multi-national drug-conglomeration supplying all these brain fucked hedonists with prescription drugs. Music dehumainsed and recycled ad-infinitum as long as it's got a 'beat'.

Sheesh.

No Swears - YOU think about it , we don't want to ...

polystyle desu said:

No Swears - YOU think about it , we don't want to ...

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Amen to that.

swears said:

house music's sexlessness,.

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?#

early house was some of the most blatantly sexual music ever- 'your love', 'baby wants to ride', 'love can't turn around' etc...and 'seven ways to jack' presents the act of listening to house music as a sexual activity.

there was some really severely non-sexual house stuff as well, yeah, but there was in rock n roll too: punk was very non-sexual, as was a lot of post-punk stuff.

can we even make sense of the question? take this question: would if have been better if the 50s and 60s hadn't happened? that kind of counterfactual analysis is extremely difficult and vague at best.

but say we decide that, on balance, the 50s and 60s did more good than harm (civil rights movement, mass anti-war movements developing and setting a precedent, feminism, decline in homophobia, a more 'open' society developing etc)...does it make sense to imagine what the 50s and 60s would have been like without rock n roll? without elvis, the beatles or the rolling stones? those three are such huge figures in the culture of that time that i just don't know what it would mean to have the 50s and 60s as sociocultural periods without them.

The spread of entertainment as mass-distraction is key to this though, and whilst a lot of the things Simon describes as occurring in the 60s (feminism, decline in homophobia, a more 'open' society developing) are good in and of themselves, they equally function as a form of distraction, in many ways. Its almost like they are a negotiation around the extent to which Capitalism in the west will allow its citizens to do as they might wish, providing they agree to continually expand their demands. In some respect all these things allowed the west to not have its systems of government overthrown, to distract, entertain, and coddle its citizens, whilst using each of these areas of social progression to market ever more unnecessary products. Without rock, (indeed all youth entertainment cultures) and social relaxation the chances of all out societal change on a more fundamental economic scale would have greatly increased. This is why the rebellious schtick of much youth entertainment is so hilariously disingenuous, acting rather as a safety valve to allow the fundamental structures to remain the same, whilst creating new opportunities to sustain the same vested interests through the creation of new demands. These also feed into (as Bleep rightly points out upthread) greater individualism, the greatest ill of the mid 20th century onwards to afflict the West.

To get hauntological, the spectres of Marx are contained no more so than inside the very body of rock, (and all the rest) within their pseudo-rebellion and para-struggle.

simon silverdollar said:

?#

early house was some of the most blatantly sexual music ever- 'your love', 'baby wants to ride', 'love can't turn around' etc...and 'seven ways to jack' presents the act of listening to house music as a sexual activity.

there was some really severely non-sexual house stuff as well, yeah, but there was in rock n roll too: punk was very non-sexual, as was a lot of post-punk stuff.

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theres also no reason why house has to exclude the use of "real instruments". it developed from disco for gods sake. listen to things like the peach boys "don't make me wait" for inter-strata examples.

(feminism, decline in homophobia, a more 'open' society developing) are good in and of themselves


wow what an understatement! it might not tie in to a dissection of captialism and its horrendous effects on a wider populous but these were more important top people day to day than critiquing and dismantling a wider capitalist society

anyway swears needs to be bumfucked to 'raw power' and then after we can talk about 'real instruments'

Er, I think it's a bit cheeky of someone who still lives with his parents at the age of 23 to start critiquing our Tory grandmas, but what surprises me about the first post is that it sounds like Penny Rimbaud wrote it in 1975! " Stick it to the man"??? "The Coca-Cola of Music"??? You're gonna call 'money' "bread" next and tell us we're living in "Ronald McDonald's napalm nightmare"

swears said:

No need to get personal mate. I'm broke, that's all.

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You dissed his granny! How personal do you want to get?

It's probably also worth pointing out that a lot of people's Tory grannies got up to all kinds of mad shit during the blitz.

I'm not sure why you single out rock n roll here, it simply seems to be one out of many musical forms that have ruined lives " through dashed dreams of stardom, de rigeur drug addictions, grotesque portrayal of "chicks", ineffectual efforts to stick it to "the man"" and that plunder other forms, although not always blues.
It seems to me that the reason that you are picking out rock n roll is basically because you don't like it.

the idea that positive social change can come from shouty, arrogant brattiness rather than through a reasoned, informed perspective on society's woes.

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Isn't that just a criticism of any political music? Whether that's a valid criticism is for another debate but why is it specific to rock n roll?

"It's the soundtrack to modern capital isn't it? The Coca-cola of music."

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Well, it was until it was superseded by other things. Presumably the dominant music of a period cannot help but be the soundtrack to that period.
Maybe you mean what Gek-Opel says about the "spread of mass-entertainment as mass-distraction", that seems like a more worthwhile debate.

Can't this be said of pretty much every form of popular music that's had a "scene," a social component, a marketing method (whether radio/video/advertisments/magazines)? At least any that's oriented toward a youth culture. Rock, Reggae, Rave, Rap--shit, I'm sure Jazz and Blues would've been the same if there'd been MTV and NME to pimp them.

It's all fascinating and yet ultimately pretty unfulfilling, to me. Perhaps I'm too much of a non-joiner, but all the social trappings of every form of pop music I enjoy seem ultimately pretty ephemeral at best--oriented toward false senses of rebellion wrapped in conservative adoption of a code of signifiers, regalia, poses, vices. Popism, Rockism, Antirock-ism, Anti-Rockism, Pop 'Futurism', Authenticity, anti-authenticity, "cred," "the real hip-hop," fuck it all.

Guess it's a relief just to be a fully-addicted record geek who just wants to hear some fucking good music--I can condescend toward the rockers and the ravers and the rappers equally ; )

I would much rather discuss ‘spread of mass-entertainment as mass-distraction’ actually, but more on that when I have the time. (Does anyone know about any articles on that subject by the way?)

Guess it's a relief just to be a fully-addicted record geek who just wants to hear some fucking good music--I can condescend toward the rockers and the ravers and the rappers equally ; )

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Isn't this merely the detached hipster stance though? I suspect that most people on this forum are ‘diggers’ rather than ‘lemmings’, but omnivorous record geeks (and I certainly count myself as one) share many unappetizing traits with the latter, one of them being an inability to become a true fanatic.

'More harm then good ?' - I know who

Who rated this thread ? and how do you rate it down ?

I called him on this 'I throw it up and see what sticks' approach to posting BS 'against the wall' awhile back when he began posting and his reply was telling then.

The worldly one who has prolly never been out of the country, correct me if wrong.
Bah !

'I'm just broke that's all'
Well, in that case one should watch what BS they spread and be aware that one is bringing the level of this place down.

As noted well , Gek could make interesting point out of this pig's ear , but maybe that's another thread.

Grrr

polystyle desu said:

'I'm just broke that's all'
Well, in that case one should watch what BS they spread and be aware that one is bringing the level of this place down.

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What the fuck are you talking about? Are you saying that the value of people's opinions is linked to thier fiscal status? I can't imagine that's what you actually mean, so maybe you could clarify a little?

How is swears bringing the level of the place down? Because you seem to take that as a given. Care to explain? Right now, it seems to me that you and martin are doing that by having a personal dig at him for no reason at all (not that there are ever really good reasons for laying into people personally on forums). You both need to grow up a bit. If you don't like his threads, don't give them the oxygen of publicity by posting on them.

Or am I missing something? Has swears developed messianic traits a la buick/Hell SD of which I am unaware?