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Parson
07-01-2007, 07:51 AM
everybody in my country along with most of western civilization is heavily brainwashed daily by the media and it goes all the way up

i pretty much accept everything i've seen in the disclosure project. you may not. i pretty much do.
therefore:
aliens are all over the place and probably put us here in some way or another.
they are also worried about our nuclear capabilities. they actively shut down nukes.

we have replicated their technology, and can access zero point energy

even if this saves the earth, somebody is going to make a doomsday weapon out of it

i feel pretty paranoid lately about these things
i'm really scared of the government. every day i am upset about the erosion of liberty.

i'm also very upset about the war in iraq, and the entire history of war

i think about the earth dying a large portion of each day

2012 is only 5 years away

its all somewhat overwhelming sometimes

HMGovt
07-01-2007, 12:31 PM
i'm also very upset about the war in iraq, and the entire history of war

i think about the earth dying a large portion of each day


What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2535310,00.html

Oh.

swears
07-01-2007, 02:13 PM
If aliens intelligent to travel thousands of light years exist, why would they bother coming to earth? What could we possibly offer them? It would be like hanging around with a bunch of apes. Plus, SETI's been a huge flop, nobody has ever detected any extra-terrestrial radio signals.

swears
07-01-2007, 04:21 PM
...The third assumption behind SETI is that intelligent life is not inherently self-destructive, but that it finds a sustainable way of living on its planet. The duration of human beings in relation to earth time has been likened to the thickness of a piece of cigarette paper placed on the topmost railing of the Eiffel Tower. Earth-time is the Eiffel tower; human history is the paper. SETI assumes that two pieces of paper, placed on two separate towers, may exist at exactly the same height, that is, that two or more intelligent civilizations may exist simultaneously, and within a relatively short distance from each other so that their radio signals may arrive without extensive degradation. However, the periods of time during which life-bearing planets are formed do in fact vary enormously. If a human civilization capable of sending electromagnetic signals continues for hundreds of thousands of years, the paper becomes a little thicker and the likelihood that we will exist simultaneously with another transmitting/receiving civilization is increased. Furthermore, if our civilization destroys itself through nuclear war or as a result of the release of greenhouse gases or other erosions of our life support system, and if other civilizations have the same proclivities, then the probability of two competent civilizations coinciding in time and making contact with each other becomes vanishingly small.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI

I know it's wikipedia, but it's still a pretty good basic summation of a lot of these ideas.

Parson
07-01-2007, 05:21 PM
seti is a joke

watch the disclosure project vids

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the%20disclosure%20project&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wv

werner von braun knew about them and he's a bit more trustworthy than you or your sources.

Parson
07-01-2007, 05:41 PM
and no nobody has ever detected radio signals from the fuckin aliens and nobody really believes radio signals are there

however, if you look way further up on the electromagnetic spectrum, where energy is MUCH more intense, there is evidence galore

swears
07-01-2007, 05:42 PM
Why would aliens evolve to have heads, arms and legs and fly around in vehicles?
Isn't this just anthropomorphism?

swears
07-01-2007, 05:46 PM
and no nobody has ever detected radio signals from the fuckin aliens and nobody really believes radio signals are there

however, if you look way further up on the electromagnetic spectrum, where energy is MUCH more intense, there is evidence galore

Wouldn't we have heard more about this "evidence galore"? Even if goverments were trying to supress this information, an amateur would pick it up sooner or later and the media would have a field day.

Parson
07-01-2007, 05:59 PM
Why would aliens evolve to have heads, arms and legs and fly around in vehicles?
Isn't this just anthropomorphism?

exactly. it really fucks up everything we know about human evolution. government officials have verified that they have 57 catalogged species. some so humanoid that you couldn't differentiate from a real human just by looking.

therefore

we evolved somewhere else. its been doing my head in for a while, but the idea of panspermia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia) seems to be a pretty reasonable explanation i feel is worth looking into further

there might have been a recent insemination (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6146292.stm) in india.

as for your comments about the media, see the first thing i mentioned about my fundamental view of the world.

Parson
07-01-2007, 06:12 PM
welcome to the desert
http://www.dansego.com/matrix/Images/Wasteland3.jpg
of the real world

Parson
09-01-2007, 04:49 AM
well i've decided to stop eating animals and wait for the photon belt

holla

MATT MAson
17-01-2007, 01:56 AM
There are three threads about aliens currently active on Dissensus. I myself have become pretty obsessed with all this since watching the Disclousure Project.

All this will remain a mystery for years I'm sure, but it has led me to perhaps a more profound question ignored by ufologists which this forum can help shed some light on.

Why are UFOs now more interesting than grime?

Eric
17-01-2007, 03:00 AM
Why are UFOs now more interesting than grime?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

Parson
17-01-2007, 06:53 AM
the rest of the world (universe?) just can't relate to english urban life

Parson
17-01-2007, 06:54 AM
i mean if we originated elsewhere, maybe our languages did too.

and if so, are there people on other planets speaking english and writing songs in english?

Parson
17-01-2007, 06:55 AM
ok not english but maybe hebrew

Mr. Tea
17-01-2007, 07:18 PM
everybody in my country along with most of western civilization is heavily brainwashed daily by the media and it goes all the way up

i pretty much accept everything i've seen in the disclosure project. you may not. i pretty much do.
therefore:
aliens are all over the place and probably put us here in some way or another.
they are also worried about our nuclear capabilities. they actively shut down nukes.

we have replicated their technology, and can access zero point energy

even if this saves the earth, somebody is going to make a doomsday weapon out of it

i feel pretty paranoid lately about these things
i'm really scared of the government. every day i am upset about the erosion of liberty.

i'm also very upset about the war in iraq, and the entire history of war

i think about the earth dying a large portion of each day

2012 is only 5 years away

its all somewhat overwhelming sometimes

Tinfoil hat, sir?

Yes, the Gubbermint are arseholes, all gubbermints are arseholes, this is nothing new. Any change to this is going to happen gradually. As for erosion of liberty, well yes, it's bad, but we live in dangerous times. Decisions have to be made, and the people making those decisions don't always get it right or strike the optimal balance. And on the subject of aliens and 'zero point energy' (which is looking to be the antigravity/perpetual motion/Philosopher's stone of the noughties), I suggest you worry about REAL problems before getting worked up over imaginary ones.

Parson
17-01-2007, 10:09 PM
your patronizing condescension has been processed and dismissed

better luck next time

Mr. Tea
17-01-2007, 11:41 PM
*abducts*

*probes*

Happy now?

Edit: serously, there are some great, interesting and very erudite discussions going on here, but I sense an awful lot of frankly delusional paranoia as well. Some of the stuff I've read on this website is a millimetre away from 'Hollow Earth'-ism.

Parson
17-01-2007, 11:48 PM
there isn't an emoticon dismissive enough

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 12:51 AM
Well that's ME told!

Sleep tight, Mulder.

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 12:57 AM
On a more serious note:

"everybody in my country along with most of western civilization is heavily brainwashed daily by the media and it goes all the way up"

As opposed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, North Korea and Burma, where people enjoy a freedom of speech we in the repressive West can only dream of?

Yes, no-one's perfect and there're dodgy dealings and behind-the-scenes manouverings committed by ALL governments, but some people need to take their heads out of their arses. I mean, have you looked at the front page of any of our national newspapers lately? I wouldn't be surprised if no other country's government is so thoroughly and regularly criticized by its own press!

Eric
18-01-2007, 01:56 AM
i mean if we originated elsewhere, maybe our languages did too.

and if so, are there people on other planets speaking english and writing songs in english?


Presumably not. Why would one expect this? English, like any other langauge, has changed massively over time; many of these changes are due to historical and geographical accidents. Even if your speculation is right there is no reason to think there is any English analogue out there, necessarily.

Twin Earth notwithstanding :)

Guybrush
18-01-2007, 01:56 AM
Oh, come on. Instead of resorting to, in William de Vaughn’s words, ‘be thankful for what you’ve got’, how about some real arguments?


As for erosion of liberty, well yes, it's bad, but we live in dangerous times. Decisions have to be made, and the people making those decisions don't always get it right or strike the optimal balance.
The defence speech of every dictator ever.


"everybody in my country along with most of western civilization is heavily brainwashed daily by the media and it goes all the way up"

As opposed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, North Korea and Burma, where people enjoy a freedom of speech we in the repressive West can only dream of?
The situation for the press in these countries is irrelevant when discussing these issues. Also, do note that the ‘brainwashing’ he wrote about has less to do with freedom of speech and more to do with, say, vulgar capitalism or cultural peculiarities.

MATT MAson
18-01-2007, 03:39 AM
I'm venturing a guess Parson was referring to people's attitudes about UFOs in the media initially, that's not to say media all over the world isn't bias about something or another.

There is some really good UFO research being done, and there should be more. It would be helpful if it wasn't ridiculed in the press. For more on that - look at this paper by a guy from Stanford.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/sturrock/toc.html

Parson
18-01-2007, 05:43 AM
i wasn't just talking about ufos

i was talking about the media in general

i just had an argument with a girl who was trying to tell me thc was toxic and that criminalization of marijuana was a good thing.

brainwashing goes far beyond ufos

swears
18-01-2007, 09:19 AM
i wasn't just talking about ufos

i was talking about the media in general

i just had an argument with a girl who was trying to tell me thc was toxic and that criminalization of marijuana was a good thing.

brainwashing goes far beyond ufos

Do you have one of those posters with a "grey" on it smoking a spliff, with the caption "Take me to your dealer." underneath?

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 12:35 PM
Hahaha.

Well, ANY drug is toxic if you use too much of it, isn't it? People who get stoned day in day out for a long time end up as cabbages. And that's not to mention the drug's well-known tendency to exacerbate or trigger schizophrenia - a cousin of mine died of misadventure/maybe-suicide a couple of yeaars ago after suffering mental health difficulties for some time, which I can't help but link to his very heavy cannabis use at one point.

I have to say I'm in favour of the legalisation of most drugs, including cannabis - it's just up to people to use it responsibly. I mean, look at the damage you can do to yourself with booze and tobacco, for God's sake, but I would never call for them to be banned.

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 12:40 PM
Oh, come on. Instead of resorting to, in William de Vaughn’s words, ‘be thankful for what you’ve got’, how about some real arguments?


The defence speech of every dictator ever.


The situation for the press in these countries is irrelevant when discussing these issues. Also, do note that the ‘brainwashing’ he wrote about has less to do with freedom of speech and more to do with, say, vulgar capitalism or cultural peculiarities.

What do you mean by 'cultural perculiarities', exactly? As for vulgar capitalism, I'm well aware that I'm bombarded by advertisement all day and every day, and I can't say I care for it, but it doesn't particularly bother me, because I was brought up to know that there are more important things in life than owning stuff.

On the point of erosion of liberty, yes, the current government's recent behaviour does worry me, but it's no good pretending that the security threats we face at the moment are somehow 'cooked up' simply to justify new legal powers. Having said that I think the ID card scheme is going to be a complete waste of money, although that's more for technological than political reasons.

Guybrush
18-01-2007, 02:52 PM
What do you mean by 'cultural perculiarities', exactly? As for vulgar capitalism, I'm well aware that I'm bombarded by advertisement all day and every day, and I can't say I care for it, but it doesn't particularly bother me, because I was brought up to know that there are more important things in life than owning stuff.

Let’s have another look at what you wrote originally (the quoted part is Parson’s writing):


"everybody in my country along with most of western civilization is heavily brainwashed daily by the media and it goes all the way up"

As opposed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, North Korea and Burma, where people enjoy a freedom of speech we in the repressive West can only dream of?

You were suggesting, by juxtapositioning, that the ‘brainwash’ Parson wrote about (by which I interpreted him as meaning the cumulative effect of media’s message-bombardment being conformism and uniformity) has anything to do with freedom of speech. I suggested that they are unrelated, instead hinting at other possible sources, the cultural climate and the economic system being two of them.

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 02:57 PM
I see what you mean, namely, that the 'brainwashing' does not necessarily equal direct government propaganda. Fair enough, I accept that, and I accept that the mass media in this country (particularly the newspapers) don't exactly do much to promote a harmonious, happy society.

On the other hand, I get most of my news from the BBC, for which I'm eternally grateful.

Parson
18-01-2007, 05:20 PM
sugar-free gum poses a bigger threat to society than thc

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/70/80972.htm

"Marijuana is a remarkably safe and non-toxic drug that can effectively treat about 30 different conditions," he tells WebMD. "I predict it will become the aspirin of the 21st century, as more people recognize this."


"This is merely confirming what was known over 100 years ago, as well as what was learned by various government findings doing similar research -- marijuana is not toxic, but it is a highly effective medicine."

Slothrop
18-01-2007, 05:23 PM
I see what you mean, namely, that the 'brainwashing' does not necessarily equal direct government propaganda. Fair enough, I accept that.
On the other hand, direct government propoganda is a form of brainwashing...

swears
18-01-2007, 05:56 PM
All I know is that quite a few bright, promising kids I knew as a teenager have become dippy, shiftless, apathetic twenty-somethings after habitually smoking weed for a decade.

adruu
18-01-2007, 06:49 PM
Doesnt anyone here understand the important difference between Brainwashing and Indoctrination? It's not just semantics.

Parson
18-01-2007, 08:17 PM
multiple means to an end

Parson
18-01-2007, 08:19 PM
All I know is that quite a few bright, promising kids I knew as a teenager have become dippy, shiftless, apathetic twenty-somethings after habitually smoking weed for a decade.

so you're saying people who were primed for robotdom have rejected the machine and havent figured out what to do

it happens

sucks for them

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 09:31 PM
so you're saying people who were primed for robotdom have rejected the machine and havent figured out what to do

it happens

sucks for them

Yeah man, FIGHT THE POWER!

If by "rejecting the machine" you mean "settling into a cozy life of dole cheques, Trisha and emphysema", then yes, I guess you're right. Given the choice, though, I'd rather be a mindless drone-pawn in the eeevil soul-destroying capitalist system with loads of totally unnecessary things I've been brainwashed into thinking I need, like a job, the use of my higher mental functions and a flat that doesn't smell like a rasta's armpit.

Come off it, since when has getting stoned been a revolutionary act? We ALL know that too much of ANY drug can fuck you up. Most drugs are reasonably harmless in moderation. I can't believe I'm actually typing this stuff, it's so fucking obvious.

Mr. Tea
18-01-2007, 09:47 PM
Oh yeah, just seen this.

Got news for you, Parson - that's not 'species', it's VARIETIES.

That wasn't a documentary, that was a Heinz commercial.

Seriously, dude, you should lay off 'da reefer'...


exactly. it really fucks up everything we know about human evolution. government officials have verified that they have 57 catalogged species. some so humanoid that you couldn't differentiate from a real human just by looking.

therefore

we evolved somewhere else. its been doing my head in for a while, but the idea of panspermia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia) seems to be a pretty reasonable explanation i feel is worth looking into further


Panspermia is a ridiculous idea. If life didn't originate on Earth but came here from 'elsewhere', it had to have originated 'elsewhere', right? Just shifts along the burden of evolution to another planet, AND requires that life got here 'somehow'.



there might have been a recent insemination (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6146292.stm) in india.

as for your comments about the media, see the first thing i mentioned about my fundamental view of the world.

Guybrush
18-01-2007, 09:59 PM
Doesnt anyone here understand the important difference between Brainwashing and Indoctrination? It's not just semantics.

You are right, it is used wrongly here. I defend my use of ‘brainwash’ on the ‘Nature of Evil’ thread, though.

Parson
19-01-2007, 01:23 AM
Panspermia is a ridiculous idea. If life didn't originate on Earth but came here from 'elsewhere', it had to have originated 'elsewhere', right? Just shifts along the burden of evolution to another planet, AND requires that life got here 'somehow'.

high ranking government officials say they have contacted humanoid life that evolved off planet earth

brainwashed guy on the internet says THATS RIDICULOUS

burden of proof is on the guy on the internet because the disclosure project has got evidence for miles that they will gladly share with congress if given the opportunity.

adruu
19-01-2007, 05:36 AM
blah blah...i lump the saddam is brave and the ufo people together...people need FOCUS!

Parson
19-01-2007, 06:38 AM
i lump the refuse to watch disclosure project videos people in with right wing fundamentalists

people need PERSPECTIVE

and saddam is brave people is just the natural reaction to disgust with all these fools rallying around this disgusting neocon pageantry

Parson
19-01-2007, 07:51 AM
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/01/08/01288.html


Professor Chang further indicates that “What we see in our DNA is a program consisting of two versions, a big code and basic code.” Mr. Chang then affirms that the “First fact is, the complete ‘program’ was positively not written on Earth; that is now a verified fact. The second fact is, that genes by themselves are not enough to explain evolution; there must be something more in ‘the game‘.”

“Soon or later”, Professor Chang says “we have to come to grips with the unbelievable notion that every life on Earth carries genetic code for his extraterrestrial cousin and that evolution is not what we think it is.”

swears
19-01-2007, 11:25 AM
Don't you think maybe you're into all of this stuff because it's entertaining?
Everyday, serious problems like poverty, oppression and abuse of power aren't really as much fun to think about as all this paranormal malarkey are they?

Mr. Tea
19-01-2007, 01:04 PM
Don't you think maybe you're into all of this stuff because it's entertaining?
Everyday, serious problems like poverty, oppression and abuse of power aren't really as much fun to think about as all this paranormal malarkey are they?

Amen to that, swears.

One thing I can't help but think is that highly paranoid people are SO convinced that the primary purpose of governments is to lie to people, above all else, that for them any kind of denial of a hypothesis is as good as proof that that hypothesis is correct. "The Government denies aliens exist, so they MUST exist!!! The Government denies the moon is made is made of mature stilton, therefore the moon MUST be made of mature stilton!" You know what? Sometimes it's a good idea to take the word of the entire scientific establishment, who work with accepted methods within a peer-reviewed framework, rather than the ideas of one or two 'maverick' researches who've decided our DNA must have come from aliens.

And on the point of 'right-wing fundamentalists' - I expect a lot of people fitting this description have a blind, dogmatic and totally empirically unsupported faith in the intervention of a supernatural being in the origins of life, to the point of intentionally perverting science to try and support their claims. Now tell me - does this remind you of anyone?
Edit: and I get the impression someone here doesn't understand the concept of 'burden of proof'. So what if some 'high-ranking government official' says terrestrial life originated on other planets? The entire body of the scientific community disagrees with him, and - call me credulous if you like - that's good enough for me.
By your argument, the fact that George Bush believes God talks to him (and you can't really get more high-ranking than George Bush) puts the burden of proof on me to prove that God doesn't exist. The simple fact is, there's no way *anyone* can actually DISprove life originated on another planet, and on the basis of unfalsifiability, it therefore is disqualified from being a scientific hypothesis. In epistemology, people sometimes talk about the 'teapot fallacy': namely, I can claim that there's a teapot in orbit around Mars, then say that "since I made the claim, the burden of proof lies on the person denying my hypothesis", and since obviously no-one can disprove it, I therefore claim vindication for my hypothesis. Which is obviously ridiculous.

Parson
19-01-2007, 05:59 PM
guys the human genome project has concluded without a doubt that our dna has been crossed with alien dna

if you don't believe the canadian article i posted, try the germans:
http://www.zeit.de/2006/47/N-Neandertale

it was on cnn very briefly but they pulled the article
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11/08/neanderthals.brains.reut/index.htm

Parson
19-01-2007, 06:00 PM
a lot of people will one day in their life trip over the truth. But most just get up dust themselves off and continue as if nothing has happened.

- winston churchill

Parson
19-01-2007, 06:02 PM
maybe you should wonder why you refuse to believe the word of 400+ high ranking government officials who are risking their lives to reveal lies.

why would you question the authority of the human genome project.

the people with the facts are being shut down out by the media and you losers condescend and patronize

your arrogant idea that you know more than those trying to explain things that you know nothing about is insulting

swears
19-01-2007, 06:45 PM
How do you know they're trying to uncover information on alien space craft? Maybe it's something to do with dodgy black-ops, classified millitary technology, could be anything...

MATT MAson
19-01-2007, 07:10 PM
Because these 400 people are the people that work on dodgy, black-ops, classified millitary technology!

They are the ones making the claim that much of this tech has been reverse engineered from crashed alien spacecraft. This is what makes the Disclosure Project interesting.

But I totally agree, the burden of proof of course lies with them, and it would seem it is still a burden thay cannot shake. There is no physical proof, no flying saucer wreckage to dump on the White House lawn, but these people have a lot of conviction, I see no reason why they would make it all up, but this brings me back to my earlier point about UFOs being more interesting than grime.

The real reason it's interesting is because its escapism. I'm right in the middle of starting a non-profit, ( www.wedia.tv plug plug plug), and indeed find it really depressing to think about serious problems like poverty etc, which I seem to be doing a great deal of. The Disclosure Project and it's problem, real or imaginary, is not depressing. It's a glimmer of hope if you take it seriously. Interest in UFOs, religon and funky house is peaking cos people want escapism, not depressing news of terrorism, world poverty, or indeed, the state of the grime scene.

That being said, UFOs are being seen all around the world and reported all around the world (today in Iran for example: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3354296,00.html ) and much of the dismissive skepticism in the US and UK around the subject is incredibly unscientific.

For example, the Mexican Air Force filmed a fleet of eleven UFOs flying through their airspace with incredibly sophisticated infrared cameras, for more than half an hour, giving off all kinds of weird temperature data, and one even breaks formation and begins following the Mexicans until they back off (you can see this here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6737356340134876703&q=mexican+ufo+footage) The Mexicans hold a press conference saying very honestly "we don't know what these things are" and present the film to the world's media. US intelligence laughs at them at says 'it was just swamp gas' with no proof, or indeed any nearby swamps.

Anytime the mainstream media 'debunks' a UFO sighting with no proof, it's taken as fact. That's not science, that's spin.

Parson
19-01-2007, 07:40 PM
well they say they have lots of proof that they will reveal if they can go in front of congress

MATT MAson
19-01-2007, 08:09 PM
That sounds a little fishy to me. Surely the best way to get in front of Congress and be taken seriously would be to reveal any verifiable "proof" to the world now.

Parson
19-01-2007, 09:18 PM
it took two hours just to introduce the people

perhaps the truth is in pieces and requires more complex explanations

Parson
19-01-2007, 09:19 PM
you cant just like whip out a skeleton and prove evolution

Parson
20-01-2007, 03:58 AM
"Meantime, an informed source told FNA that the object has been on fire and there has been thick smoke coming out of it prior to the crash, concluding that the object couldn't have been a meteor as meteors do not smoke," the article said.


woah it seems like one of them got shot down.

the disclosure project says that our radar causes most of the crashes but this one seems to have been shot down

IdleRich
20-01-2007, 10:23 AM
"if you don't believe the canadian article i posted"
Should they also believe the other articles on the front page of The Canadian? Some of the best stories are as follows:

"Has HIV-AIDS been created in laboratories funded by neo-conservative ideologues and "religious fascists"... "

"The Canadian Conservative party wants to allow the US to annexe Canada"

Testimony from "contactee" Adrian on which aliens make crop circles:
"Adrian testifies that alien races from the Andromeda Galaxy are one of the main extraterrestrial races most responsible for crop circles. He further makes representation from his reported alien contact with this Off-world civilization from the Andromeda Galaxy, that "the crop circles are intended both to inspire humans with the possibility of extraterrestrial communications, and to warn those of the consequences of their actions to control and manipulate humanity", which in part, takes the form of so-
called "Globalization". "

"Doctor alleges plans underway to "Microchip" Newborns in U.S. and Europe"

Not to mention several more stories about aliens. I think the crop circle one is the best in the way it manages to link aliens with anti-globalization campaigners but I guess everyone will have their own special favourite.

Mr. Tea
20-01-2007, 01:45 PM
How do you know they're trying to uncover information on alien space craft? Maybe it's something to do with dodgy black-ops, classified millitary technology, could be anything...

This sounds infinitely more likely, and is a good example of REAL dodgy-dealings that Those In Power are often up to in one way or another.

Mr. Tea
20-01-2007, 01:47 PM
Not to mention several more stories about aliens. I think the crop circle one is the best in the way it manages to link aliens with anti-globalization campaigners but I guess everyone will have their own special favourite.

I once saw a xenomorph smash up a McDonalds.

MATT MAson
20-01-2007, 04:39 PM
This sounds infinitely more likely, and is a good example of REAL dodgy-dealings that Those In Power are often up to in one way or another.

I think you should watch these testimonies. A lot of these Disclosure people are high ups and people "in power." And they are claiming this is all about black ops tech, tech that they say was reverse engineered from crashed UFOs. I'm all for Ockham's razor, and without these people coming forward this claim would have no basis, but their actions defy logic.

This is the problem with this subject, and why culturally it won't ever be taken seriously. Before even listening to the testimonies of these ex-astronauts and top CIA people who deserve to be taken seriously for at least a minute or two, it's perfectly okay to dismiss them and decide, based on an unrelated story on crop circles, that it is 'infinitely more likely' that some of the most knowledgable people in the gvt, space and defence industries are just all nuts.

Excellent. More great scientific analysis in the field of UFO research.

Parson
20-01-2007, 06:16 PM
there is no more doubt about the aliens.

you can ridicule all you want and you'll still be wrong.

mms
20-01-2007, 07:23 PM
"Meantime, an informed source told FNA that the object has been on fire and there has been thick smoke coming out of it prior to the crash, concluding that the object couldn't have been a meteor as meteors do not smoke," the article said.


woah it seems like one of them got shot down.

the disclosure project says that our radar causes most of the crashes but this one seems to have been shot down

do some background research on the disclosure project. its pretty dogy. ufologists don't really trust them as i've explained b4, the other thing is some of those 'high ranking testimonials' either say nothing or are dodgy, maybe not even be who they say they are. and the dude that runs it is a fraud.

Parson
20-01-2007, 07:35 PM
yeah i don't take greer seriously.

i do believe that there are lots of people who think the testemonials are bogus. of course there are lots of people who call it a fraud.

even if 99% of them are lying, all it takes is for one of them to be telling the truth for the matter to be worth taking seriously.

wernher von braun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun) knew about the aliens and he's a got more cred than anybody involved with testimonials or trying to debunk testimonials

Parson
20-01-2007, 07:37 PM
even nikola tesla believed he received information from aliens

Parson
20-01-2007, 09:32 PM
the space based arms race is officially under way
http://dissidentnews.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/space-weapon-used-by-china-herald-sun/#more-1162

Parson
20-01-2007, 09:36 PM
short documentary on the bosnian pyramids
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8793763556525341053&hl=en-GB
bosnian sun pyramid is now the biggest pyramid on earth

"credible" source says there's no pyramids there and that its just natural rock formations
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/osmanagic/
this "scientist" has "proven" that there's no pyramids in bosnia, because there was an alleged ice age at the time these pyramids were built and there shoulda been a glacier covering the land.

swears
20-01-2007, 09:40 PM
Why aliens?
In my mind, I tend to put them in the big bin marked "LOAD OF BOLLOCKS" along with God, The Afterlife and ghosts.

Parson
20-01-2007, 10:38 PM
ya don't say

mms
20-01-2007, 11:07 PM
even nikola tesla believed he received information from aliens

so what?

tesla was a very good scientist, an incredibly odd man also,but many millions of other people good at things don't believe in extra terrestrials.

that someone good at something might have believed in something strange doesn't validate it.

if you want to believe in something i think you first have to reason it out rather than believe it because it would be lovely if it was true.

IdleRich
20-01-2007, 11:12 PM
"This is the problem with this subject, and why culturally it won't ever be taken seriously. Before even listening to the testimonies of these ex-astronauts and top CIA people who deserve to be taken seriously for at least a minute or two, it's perfectly okay to dismiss them and decide, based on an unrelated story on crop circles, that it is 'infinitely more likely' that some of the most knowledgable people in the gvt, space and defence industries are just all nuts."
The crop circle story and all of the others are unrelated, the point is that they are obviously nonsense and yet the Canadian is reporting them as truth - I therefore consider the Canadian an unreliable source of information and thus the fact it reported on the alien/human dna business is worthless.
Culturally this subject will never be taken seriously when people who argue for it link to things such as the Canadian.

swears
20-01-2007, 11:15 PM
Believing in aliens that have a head, two arms and legs, fly around in spaceships and want to communicate with us is like believing in the Wolfman or Dracula.
Any species smart enough to crack the light-speed barrier would probably just exist as pure energy or something, we can barely conceive what form they'd take.

Parson
20-01-2007, 11:19 PM
whole lotta speculation comin' from somebody refusing to look at the evidence to the contrary

Parson
20-01-2007, 11:21 PM
as for the canadian thing it is one of the only outlets left that has the story printed. it was on cnn and got pulled. its still on that german site though, and if you google for further details you will see it is a real story and the real human genome project has come to these conclusions.

Parson
20-01-2007, 11:23 PM
also "tesla was a very good scientist, an incredibly odd man" exhibits an incredibly profound lack of understanding of tesla's importance and impact on the history of civilization.

people take for granted history's punctuated leaps in knowledge because they seem to be so given.

Mr. Tea
21-01-2007, 01:38 AM
also "tesla was a very good scientist, an incredibly odd man" exhibits an incredibly profound lack of understanding of tesla's importance and impact on the history of civilization.

people take for granted history's punctuated leaps in knowledge because they seem to be so given.

Do you actually know anything about Tesla? He was a scientific genius of the first order, undoubtedy, but he also spent many years trying to create a death-ray. John von Neumann was one of the 20th century's greatest mathematicians yet he advocated pre-emptive nuclear strikes on all major Soviet cities before they had a chance to develop a bomb of their own. It's an old cliché perhaps, but it's nonetheless true that genius and madness often go together.

There's another point here I'd like to make about the motives of these alleged aliens. If they've crossed interplanetary space they must be hundreds of years (at the very least) more technologically advanced than us - if they wanted us all to know about them, they could show themselves very easily, e.g. openly visiting large cities in big fuck-off space-ships. If they were enlightened and benevolent, surely they'd see what we were doing to ourselves and out planet (perhaps recognising a difficult stage of development from their own history) and help us out with new energy sources, a cure for Aids and so on.
As it is, they are presumably working in cahoots with shadowy government agencies, and on the assumption they're not stupid enough to think such people have their own species's greater good at heart, I can only conclude that they must be a bit shifty, if not actively planning to take over the world. In that case, there's obviously nothing any of us can do about, so in the meantime I'd rather simply not know about it and get on with my life without worrying that I'm about to be rendered down for my amino acids.

Mr. Tea
21-01-2007, 01:40 AM
Believing in aliens that have a head, two arms and legs, fly around in spaceships and want to communicate with us is like believing in the Wolfman or Dracula.
Any species smart enough to crack the light-speed barrier would probably just exist as pure energy or something, we can barely conceive what form they'd take.

If you're a beam of pure energy, can you still get jiggy with another beam of pure energy?

I'm worried the far future might suck really hard. :(

Parson
21-01-2007, 02:02 AM
so there's no aliens but if they are real then you hate em anyway so you'd rather not learn about em

swears
21-01-2007, 02:05 AM
Y'see, this is why I'm not worried about aliens, 'cause if they're advanced enough to perfect interstellar travel, there's absolutely nothing we can offer them. There's nothing that they would want to kill/enslave us all for. And I don't think they would be particularly interested in helping us either, they might not even consider us sentient.

Parson
21-01-2007, 02:59 AM
well, it looks like you've got it all figured out

carry on

Eric
21-01-2007, 03:01 AM
also "tesla was a very good scientist, an incredibly odd man" exhibits an incredibly profound lack of understanding of tesla's importance and impact on the history of civilization.


which stilll has nothing to do with whether we should take seriously his beliefs about whether or not aliens were beaming thoughts into his mind (or whatever it was exactly). presumably his importance to history doesn't hinge on this?

swears
21-01-2007, 03:26 AM
well, it looks like you've got it all figured out

carry on

No, I'm just saying we can't even begin to really grasp what sort of state an alien would exist in. That's probably why they're called aliens. But the whole "people that look a bit funny" idea is most probably incorrect.

mms
21-01-2007, 11:30 AM
also "tesla was a very good scientist, an incredibly odd man" exhibits an incredibly profound lack of understanding of tesla's importance and impact on the history of civilization.




how does it, can you explain?

i know all about tesla's importance thank you. Infact your claim that he believed in aliens is misleading, he believed he recieved radio signals from space, which is different from believing in aliens.
Although we now know about radio astronomy, which has little to do with aliens.

As far as being odd, he never had a home and spent all his life in hotels, never had an intimate relationship with a woman, performed all his actions in multiples of three. he
he was a profoundly romantic visionary and a performer who's ideals often didn't match up with what his contractors wanted often etc.
That's pretty odd.

mms
21-01-2007, 11:40 AM
whole lotta speculation comin' from somebody refusing to look at the evidence to the contrary


you don't look at the evidence yourself parson i think, you seem to blindly believe the testomonies of some people on a screen,
you need to do some background research on them,
you don't pick apart the value of what they are actually saying, why they are saying it, who they are, and if they are who they say they are,
what the organisation is like,why the organisation is operating in the way it is, why the organisation sells dodgy paraphanialia and courses,
why they are approaching the subject in the way they are (presumably they are saying NOTHING, else someone would have tried to shut them up ages ago, which hasn't happened)

why they according to themselves, know so much when EVERYONE else is literally completley in the dark on the subject.

there are lots of different premises about the conspiracy of silence idea within goverments on this subject etc, like why would they be silent, why would they know or understand any more than us, where is the proof that when it comes to aliens etc there is any substantial money or work put towards it (answer there isn't). Also since governments are primarily into maintaining their own power over countries, and also trying to make those countries successfulthru their policies, how does alien research really fit in?

Mr. Tea
21-01-2007, 05:17 PM
But the whole "people that look a bit funny" idea is most probably incorrect.

Come on, there's in enough of them here on Earth right now. Sarah Jessica Parker, anyone? Actually, maybe Parsons has a point after all...

Parson
21-01-2007, 07:59 PM
i've done a lot of research, thank you.

i've been obsessively researching these things for about a month now.

this is like arguing with myself from a year ago.

MATT MAson
21-01-2007, 08:48 PM
There are lots of layers of secrecy, mistrust and paranoia in government, you don't need aliens for that, it's just how they tend to work. Think about the various factions, ideologies and systems that would be upset by the realization that we are not alone in the universe. I could understand why some people might think it was better if society just didn't know.

I would really like to see some good research and a bit more background on the Disclousre Project. Mms raised some very good questions - but this doesn't change the fact that some of these disclosure people are highly credible people, who haven't made a dime from this. Or the fact that other governments in Mexico, Russia, Iran and France for example, have all gone public about the existence of UFOs, and the fact that they have no idea what these things flying around really are.

None of this should become less credible every time some wide-eyed hippy claims he can talk to aliens by sticking a crystal up his arse, and yet it does, as some comments here, and society's general attitude towards ufology clearly illustrate.

Parsons if you have some good answers for mms' questions, please share them, and I'd love to see your research. If you don't share it, I might be forced to start my own Parsons work on the Disclosure Project disclosure project...

Dr Matt Mason

Parson
21-01-2007, 08:52 PM
i'm always posting links.

i'm not trying to convince people like tea and mms

when i made this thread, i was feelin overwhelmed about being surrounded by these kinds of people, when the whole world is falling down around me

engaging them only upsets me and i need to stop doing it

mms
21-01-2007, 09:16 PM
i'm always posting links.

i'm not trying to convince people like tea and mms

when i made this thread, i was feelin overwhelmed about being surrounded by these kinds of people, when the whole world is falling down around me

engaging them only upsets me and i need to stop doing it

here in lies the problem, it's nothing personal parson, just validate some of your claims with serious links, or some arguements, both things, you haven't done, the only links i've seen from you so far have been from the project themselves apart from one interesting link from wikipedia, but it didn't have much to do with the project.

Parson
21-01-2007, 09:21 PM
this thread isn't called come argue with my about my view of the world

just sharing my personal perspective

if you wish to understand it better, then pay closer attention to things i have said

mms
21-01-2007, 09:30 PM
this thread isn't called come argue with my about my view of the world

just sharing my personal perspective

if you wish to understand it better, then pay closer attention to things i have said


parsons, you are posting on a public forum or discussion board as it's also known.
it's obvious if the things you say are interesting enough to be discussed they may be discussed or questioned, views arent set in stone, i'm willing and offering to have my questions answered or discussed or my views challenged, so far you haven't done that and are unwilling to do that, instead i should 'pay more attention', which isn't as interesting for me personally as engaging in a discussion, cos franky i've heard alot of what you're saying before, and i'm simply asking you to discuss, backup, and argue some of your claims.

the other thing with this is you talk about brainwashing and people following the rules etc, and then you want me to sit back and listen to your personal perspective without question, something you quite rightly worry about in others.

Parson
21-01-2007, 09:42 PM
which claim do you want me to back up?

i've made several and each one could have a lot of time devoted to it.

for instance are we arguing about the existence of aliens? on earth? interfering with dna? government technology? government whistleblowers credibility? the nature of evolution?

you can just say "show proof." and expect me go

mms
21-01-2007, 09:46 PM
which claim do you want me to back up?

i've made several and each one could have a lot of time devoted to it.

for instance are we arguing about the existence of aliens? on earth? interfering with dna? government technology? government whistleblowers credibility? the nature of evolution?

you can just say "show proof." and expect me go

the ones i asked you earlier in the thread about the disclosure project.

MATT MAson
21-01-2007, 09:47 PM
Ok - so here are the four points mms raised. Let's see if between us we can come up with some good, objective answers.


1. What the organisation is like?

2. Why the organisation is operating in the way it is?

3. Why the organisation sells dodgy paraphanialia and courses?

4. Why are they approaching the subject in the way they are?

Parson
21-01-2007, 09:50 PM
good questions. they don't change my mind though

Parson
21-01-2007, 09:51 PM
it may as well be wernher von braun's word against yours

Parson
21-01-2007, 09:52 PM
it is my comfortable estimation that steven greer is a trying to profit on this shit. he seems to be a shady character, but i also think he believes what he's doing.

MATT MAson
21-01-2007, 10:28 PM
I agree. I also have no problem with him making a living, I think some of the stuff he is doing takes credibility away from this though. Based on your research, do you have answers to the other questions?

Parson
21-01-2007, 10:30 PM
nah

mms
22-01-2007, 08:58 AM
i'm not really after answers i'm more interested in trying to discuss it critically rather than say well, ' it's true cos i believe it is' which is all that seems to have happened to a larger extent in any of these threads on the subject.

Parson
22-01-2007, 06:45 PM
there is no critical discussion when you try to poke holes in evidence without even reviewing the evidence

MATT MAson
22-01-2007, 06:52 PM
Dude,

Give us some of this miraculous evidence. There is lots of evidence that prove their are weird things flying around in the sky. But what is this proof that has convinced you totally of the Disclosure Project? I'm with you that it's at least halfway credible, but I would like to know what convinced you.

Parson
22-01-2007, 08:03 PM
there's more evidence about the aliens than credible debunkers

the human genome project believes they have proven without a doubt that human dna is part extra terrestrial

again, the canadian paper is not the source. the human genome project is the source. google it.

Parson
22-01-2007, 08:07 PM
debunkers are up for review:

this "credible source" swears there's no pyramids in bosnia.
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/osmanagic/

it even has a more recent followup article
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/osmanagic/update.html

i mean this guy is walking around inside the pyramids and thousands of people are watching them excavate this shit
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8793763556525341053&hl=en-GB

Parson
22-01-2007, 08:19 PM
not to mention this pyramid in china thats as big as the great pyramid in giza
http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidchina.html

i wish i had the link to the article saying the pyramid off the coast of japan was caused by tides and currents

there are pyramids all over the world (http://p.vtourist.com/2028166-Luxor-Las_Vegas.jpg) it seems

MATT MAson
22-01-2007, 08:37 PM
The pyramids are fascinating. But how is this irrefutable proof of the existence of aliens?

Also, the human geonome project has not proven beyond all reasonable doubt human life is in part alien DNA. That is one idea being postulated, and is by no means the consensus of the project. Another idea is that the 97% of "junk" DNA is in fact our operating system, a kind of living Linux. As an article in this month's Wired points out, we are only just starting to read it, because we've thought of it as nothing but junk for the last 30 years, which it clearly isn't or it would have evolved out of our systems by now. The jury is still out on that.

These things don't seem to have any strong connection to the existence of aliens. You should check out Stanton Friedman's work on things like the MJ12 documents, that's much more convincing.

Mr. Tea
22-01-2007, 09:30 PM
I just google 'alien dna human genome project' and on the first page of results was this:

http://www.sitchin.com/adam.htm

These guys make a big deal of the supposed uniqueness of the genes that make humans unique from other animals (eg. chimps). Yet the fact that humans are all so relatively similar (compared to other primate species) argues for an event in early human (pre-)history that wiped out most (proto-)people, leading all our descendents to be very gentetically similar. After that, the human population started growing much more rapidly than any creature of our size had any 'right' to, due to technological innovations such as fire and stone tools. Any chance mutations or endogenous viral DNA (which makes up around 10% of our entire DNA!) would then have been 'frozen' into the population and spread around the globe. These unique aspects of our evolution as a species could easily explain the 'alien' DNA found in our genome, I think.

The biggest problem I have with the alien hypothesis is that, if aliens did come down and monkey around (hahaha) with our ancestors' DNA to create modern humans, would there be a sudden leap in our evolution as shown in the fossil record? Yet, in reality, there is a more-or-less smooth continuum from advanced apes to primitive ape-people to modern people, over the course of millions of years. If aliens had intervened, surely all this development would have occured over the course of just a few generations, as opposed to aeons?

Parson
22-01-2007, 10:37 PM
nah man i am not showing irrefutable proof.

i'm showing that there is lots of proof and the people debunking are fullashit

how is the disclosure project not credible? because somebody mentioned they heard of somebody debunking them? because stephen greer is an opportunistic capitalist closet queer with a shady agenda?

disclosure project is good evidence. so is the human genome project saying they have proven without a doubt that our dna has been tampered with by aliens.

Parson
22-01-2007, 10:39 PM
as for fossil records and such, i point you to the archaeology article i posted. they are swearing up and down that there are no pyramids because there was an ice age back then involving bosnia being covered with a glacier.

if it is possible that our dna has been tampered with, then it is also possible that history has been tampered with.

MATT MAson
22-01-2007, 11:02 PM
Of course. History is written by the winners.

But this geonome thing you're on about is totally incorrect as I just explained. It's one hypothesis, there is no "proof." That's probably why CNN pulled it.

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:10 PM
you say there's no proof

the human genome project says they have irrefutable proof

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:17 PM
also the evolving consensus is not that the annunaki/nephilim tampered with chimpanzee dna, but early man's. namely the neandertals is what they're sayin.

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:38 PM
perhaps this drum n bass music video featuring david icke could help clarify things:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2FyUnWEcrSs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2FyUnWEcrSs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Mr. Tea
22-01-2007, 11:39 PM
also the evolving consensus is not that the annunaki/nephilim tampered with chimpanzee dna, but early man's. namely the neandertals is what they're sayin.

Oh dear. Two points here: one, I find it laughable that "the evolving consensus is not that the annunaki/nephilim tampered with chimpanzee dna, but early man's" - that's like saying "most experts now say the world was created in ten days, not six".

Secondly, you're only displaying your own ignorance of evolution - the neanderthals weren't our ancestors, they were contemporaries (and quite possibly rivals) of our ancestors, and they died out without leaving any descendents.

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:50 PM
nah dude i went to college and i took anthropology courses and i know that the scientific community's consensus is that we evolved alongside neandertals

i'm sayin that these guys like david icke and jordan maxwell and michael tsarion, and sitchin, that all obsessively research this shit their whole lives and come to very similar conclusions independently. and for whatever reason they have said neandertals.

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:51 PM
also you said neanderthals and for whatever reason, scientists don't have the h in there anymore. maybe its just a recent trend. in my classes and labs and on discovery and pbs and such, they all say neandertal.

MATT MAson
22-01-2007, 11:52 PM
This arguments over. Once someone has a David Icke D&B vid to explain things, I'm convinced. I especially liked seeing the disused Thames Estuary seaforts appear 3min26secs into it. I have long suspected they were the work of some shadowy cabal.

I wish I had a soft rock video featuring Carl Sagan to come back with, but sadly I don't.

Over and out.

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:53 PM
i have carl sagan's book the demon haunted world: science as a candle in the dark sitting right here and i have read it.

if there is a passage you'd like to discuss i'd gladly go over with ya

Parson
22-01-2007, 11:57 PM
i know how the debunker mind works. i was one for 10 years. bursting everybody's bubble i could. every girl i dated i converted.

talked to one of my ex gfs a few days ago and told her about how i'd begun to embrace certain aspects of the pseudosciences and it took a while to convince her that i was serious.

she had ended up taking a pseudoscience debunking class at University of Texas and could shoot down any claim without investigating whatsoever based on simple debunking techniques they trained her with.

mms
23-01-2007, 08:52 AM
i know how the debunker mind works. i was one for 10 years. bursting everybody's bubble i could. every girl i dated i converted.

talked to one of my ex gfs a few days ago and told her about how i'd begun to embrace certain aspects of the pseudosciences and it took a while to convince her that i was serious.

she had ended up taking a pseudoscience debunking class at University of Texas and could shoot down any claim without investigating whatsoever based on simple debunking techniques they trained her with.

hmm thats just as uncredible as any pseudoscience so why is it being taught at a unversity.
i'd liike to know more about that, surely it should be illegal?

as for david icke. absolutley no way is he credible, his stuff is appauling not researched. anyone can tell you that the protocols of zion which he likes to use as his primary text for his conspiratorial evidence is a piece of tsarist propaganda, the people he uses are dispreputable, often with fairly unpleasant right wing agenda's, like l.a. waddle who falsefied translations of ancient documents to prove 'aryan' supremacy, others are just fantasists like arizona wilder who claims to have sacrificed children for the royal family, and his ideas are utter bunk.
he writes stuff in his books like - i read somewhere, this person told me, absolutley no footnotes or references of any validity.

Mr. Tea
23-01-2007, 01:29 PM
He also claims the British royal family are shape-shifting lizards from another dimension. I mean, DUH! EVERYONE knows they're actually snails from Venus...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_icke#Reptilian_humanoids

Parson
23-01-2007, 05:59 PM
there's a lot of controversy surrounding the lizard people

i tend to go with michael tsarion's understanding that the anunaki/nephilim use the serpent as a symbol (because serpent was the same word for knowledge and they were super scientists) and they are often known as serpent people, but they are strictly humanoid and don't look reptilian at all.

MATT MAson
23-01-2007, 06:42 PM
there's a lot of controversy surrounding the lizard people.

Funny that

zhao
23-01-2007, 07:25 PM
On a more serious note:

"everybody in my country along with most of western civilization is heavily brainwashed daily by the media and it goes all the way up"

As opposed to Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, North Korea and Burma, where people enjoy a freedom of speech we in the repressive West can only dream of?

have you looked at the front page of any of our national newspapers lately? I wouldn't be surprised if no other country's government is so thoroughly and regularly criticized by its own press!

(illusory) freedom of speech does NOT mean people are not brainwashed. 2 different things entirely.

Guatarri was heavily involved in the free-radio scene in France in 1968; when Deleuze found out he was furious, and posited that "when given the chance to say what ever they want, all the people will do is repeat what the power has told them".

I agree with Deleuze.

the right to criticize the government is another ingenius controlling mechanism -- look, your thoughts are not controled - we even allow you to criticize the government!

_______________________________________

we live in times of interiorized, invisible power. from early to late 20th century power has evolved from coercive to that which is everywhere, underlying every artifact, every voice. no black shirts or secret police are necessary when we are our own police - the panoptican is thoroughly instilled in people's minds - we don't need censorship when people all believe the same lies.

the illusion of freedom is the most insideous prison of all. when people THINK they are free, they can be controlled with the ultimate ease.

______________________________________

sorry coming to this a bit late, thus dragging out a comment on page 3 not knowing if similar sentiments have already been expressed... more when time allows.

Parson
23-01-2007, 07:39 PM
ahhh

reinforcements have arrived

lazybones
23-01-2007, 10:28 PM
well what exactly can one not do in england today? i can read or listen to whatever i want, walk anyplace i care to, fly off to live in the bahamas if i felt so inclined. .. .

i think i'm pretty free to do as i please...

zhao
23-01-2007, 11:21 PM
i think i'm pretty free to do as i please...

exactly. thanks for reinforcing my position, lazybones.

Mr. Tea
23-01-2007, 11:31 PM
ahhh

reinforcements have arrived

Allow me to translate from Parsonese to English: "Ahh, one of my equally paranoid friends has turned up!"

Look, I don't quite know what exactly you guys are getting at, but in this country we have an extremely robust and healthy tradition of DIStrusting the government, mocking authority figures and generally believing that the people who run the whole show counldn't find their own arse with both hands if provided with a detailed diagram. If we really are 'brainwashed' then exactly who is doing the brainwashing? The government, whom most of us consider a laughing stock and have only not voted out yet for lack of a credible opposition?

In what way are my thoughts 'controlled'? In what way am I not free to think whatever I like about anything I like? No doubt your answer will be "well of course, that's what they've PROGAMMED you to think!!!". In that case, I have no answer. It's a consporacy theory, and therefore unfalsifiable, and therefore a lot of toss. You might as well believe we're all stuck in the Matrix (and I would not be at all surprised if some of you lot actually think this, or would at least claim it's some kind of valid metaphor for modern society, maaan...).

There's a lot that I don't know about the world, and I'm fully prepared to admit that, but I think there's very little I'm actively misinformed about. My political views don't align with any major party or ideology, but they're strong views nonetheless and they're based on information from all sorts of sources. I choose these sources based on whether or not I think the people providing them are utter wankers - so while I don't read the Daily Mail, I don't read Alien Abduction Monthly either. And quite frankly, I'm not sure what to make of an accusation of 'brainwashing' from someone who thinks 'contoversy' exists over alien lizard-men.

Having said all that, I expect the pair of you aren't even going to take a minute out from watching Dark Skies or listening to System Of A Down to read this. Ahh, the moral certainty of the conspiracy theorist.

This is Mindless Drone Unit #23-6544-b signing out...

Parson
24-01-2007, 12:41 AM
"It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am."

- george washington

Parson
24-01-2007, 12:45 AM
"I have heard much of the nefarious, and dangerous plan, and doctrines of the Illuminati"

- george washington

Eric
24-01-2007, 03:03 AM
surely there is a middle way between believing in total freedom and believing in lizard people. I mean come on.

Parson
24-01-2007, 04:24 AM
how many people are going to mention lizard people after i've explained the correlation between the "nephilim" and the serpent symbol

Parson
24-01-2007, 04:41 AM
jordan maxwell discussing nephilim in the bible destroying sodom and gamorrah:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1425045877181913152&q=jordan+maxwell

Eric
24-01-2007, 08:26 AM
they are often known as serpent people, but they are strictly humanoid and don't look reptilian at all.

am I just confused? I took this very literally.

mms
24-01-2007, 09:03 AM
"I have heard much of the nefarious, and dangerous plan, and doctrines of the Illuminati"

- george washington

quoting someone well known and out of context doesn't make their statement true, it just means they said it.

the nephilim are a biblical myth, unless you completely want to disregard a long time of scientific and historical study, oh you do? ok.

Parson
24-01-2007, 09:08 AM
mms, what do you think of the archaeology article i posted?

mms
24-01-2007, 09:18 AM
mms, what do you think of the archaeology article i posted?


what does your question have to do with george washington or the nephilim?

you posted 3 of them, which one as well..?

Eric
24-01-2007, 09:27 AM
Do you have some kind of article about nephelim, or just the video? I would read an article but no time to watch the vid ... sorry if that makes me closed-minded :)

zhao
24-01-2007, 09:47 AM
Look, I don't quite know what exactly you guys are getting at, but in this country we have an extremely robust and healthy tradition of DIStrusting the government. If we really are 'brainwashed' then exactly who is doing the brainwashing? The government, whom most of us consider a laughing stock and have only not voted out yet for lack of a credible opposition?

what I'm getting at is that power has evolved in such a way that allowing dissent in the construction of an illusory freedom has become a much more efficient way of total and complete control - because people no longer question the things in their heads when they think they are masters of their own destiny. we can not point fingers to exactly who is doing the brainwashing because we simply grow up in an environment of lies, accepting them without question to be "natural" and "neutral" truths.

for instance, we grow up investing in a certain definition of happiness inextricably tied to luxury and the possession of material goods. we grow up thinking that enrolling and graduating from one institution after another is the only way to live, at the expense of other modes of being and living. we grow up with a certain construction of "individuality" (which reality probably makes us miserable). we grow up believing in authority, in knowledge which is often based on arbituary systems of knowledge, and false representations of the world we live in, false representations of history, of pre-history, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. we accept lies and falsehood such as "free market" in the context of capitalism, but in reality it is more like serfdom in a world run by lords. and (in America at least) poor whites and blacks are pitted against eachother in the drama of racism and racial conflicts while the predominant dynamic has always been one of classism - the upper class creating friction among the lower classes to distract them from the truth of what is really happening. the list goes on and on and on and on and on.


In what way are my thoughts 'controlled'? In what way am I not free to think whatever I like about anything I like? No doubt your answer will be "well of course, that's what they've PROGAMMED you to think!!!". In that case, I have no answer. It's a consporacy theory, and therefore unfalsifiable, and therefore a lot of toss. You might as well believe we're all stuck in the Matrix (and I would not be at all surprised if some of you lot actually think this, or would at least claim it's some kind of valid metaphor for modern society, maaan...).

no, it is not conspiracy theory. it is ground that many serious historians, thinkers, theorists, and philosophers (Foucault for instance) have dedicated lives and many volumes to explore. and your outright dismissal of and failure to consider our position only demonstrates the depth of omnipresent power and ideology's complete saturation.

who defined ideology as the rules that we follow without knowing that we are following them? was it Zizek?


Having said all that, I expect the pair of you aren't even going to take a minute out from watching Dark Skies or listening to System Of A Down to read this. Ahh, the moral certainty of the conspiracy theorist.

you see, I took some time to read and reply to your comments. as I respect anyone who cares enough to enter a serious discussion. please keep the condescension, mockery, and ridicule for another time and place. thank you.

Mr. Tea
24-01-2007, 03:04 PM
surely there is a middle way between believing in total freedom and believing in lizard people. I mean come on.

I never said I believe in total freedom, or even that total freedom is desirable. I mean, I'm not free to go around stealing and raping and killing, and that's a good thing, right? Total freedom would be anarchy, which would be no freedom at all, as the strong would simply set themselves up as mini-dictators over the weak. (I mean, look at a playground full of young kids with no supervision - they have 'freedom' from the influences of a teacher, but how much 'freedom' does the short speccy kid enjoy from the bullies?)

You have to give up some freedoms, by having a police force, legal system and all the other trappings of a civil society, in order to have any freedom at all. It's also interesting to note that American libertarians consider the greatest infringement of their freedom not to be the existence of the police and legal system but taxes and the (admittedly minimal) welfare state, to the point that some of the most extreme libertarians are called 'anarcho-capitalists'. I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this, other than to say that freedom comes in many different flavours, and that I think that in this country we could certainly do a lot worse in terms of balance of freedom.

noel emits
24-01-2007, 03:44 PM
Total freedom would be anarchy, which would be no freedom at all, as the strong would simply set themselves up as mini-dictators over the weak. (I mean, look at a playground full of young kids with no supervision - they have 'freedom' from the influences of a teacher, but how much 'freedom' does the short speccy kid enjoy from the bullies?)

Are you quite sure that's how human societies would naturally self-organise under different circumstances? Could this not be a product of currently extant psychological control systems and our particular unhealthy social and cultural environments? Children may behave this way but they don't exactly have good examples to look up to really. Human beings evolved as tribal creatures and I think what we have now is a problem of scale; nuclear family = too small, urban centres / nations = way too big. If there is a need for leaders they must be directly accessible and accountable and will hold their positions purely on merit and the will of the people. We just don't have this now that power has been consolidated the way it has. A correct and deeply felt understanding of the synergistic interelatedness and intrinsic value of all people will clearly show that there is no sense in subjugating any person or group.

Mr. Tea
24-01-2007, 03:59 PM
Oh, I think I agree with that entirely. My point was that even in primitive societies there is not anarchy, which is what 'total freedom' means to me - there is still law and order, social norms and taboos, and 'elders' or chiefs or some other people with authority. I agree that there is a problem of scale inherent in running any social group as big as a country - humans are pack animals, not social insects.

Edit: even higher animals like apes and whales and elephants don't live in anarchy as such, they have social structures with alpha males or matriarchs and complex systems of social interaction that begin to look a lot like human social norms. Creatures like bees or ants live in the exact opposite of anarchy, of course - a sort of 'monarcho-communism'.

I started that little essay because someone said they thought I though I had total freedom, and I was just saying no, I don't think that and I wouldn't want that, because it would not be conducive to a functional society. However I am pretty sure I have complete freedom of thought, although certain people on here will no doubt just claim "Ahh, but that's exactly what a brainwashed person WOULD think!".

matt b
24-01-2007, 04:49 PM
Oh, I think I agree with that entirely. My point was that even in primitive societies there is not anarchy, which is what 'total freedom' means to me - there is still law and order, social norms and taboos

i suggest you go and read up on anarchy :)

in your above example of 'mini dictators' and school playgounds, you are refering to chaos not 'anarchy' in its traditional sense- see godwin, kropotkin, rocker, some of proudhon's early writings ('order is anarchy') etc etc

anarchists of this sort (broadly, anarcho-syndicalists) place a high value of agreed social norms, rather than norms imposed from above.

kropotkin in particular used animal societies as examples of how freedom and co-operation often go hand in hand

lots of info here: http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/index.html

Mr. Tea
24-01-2007, 05:08 PM
OK, well I have to admit I don't know too much about anarchy as a political theory - or rather, 'anarchism', as you might say. It just seems to me hopelessly optimistic and naive to think that all people will work towards the common good and cooperate rather than compete without some kind of centrally-imposed authority, whether it's a council of tribal elders or the elected government of a country of many millions of people. Again, if I'm misinterpreting what 'real' anarchists (as opposed to, say, the Sex Pistols) think, then I apologise.

The problem with 'agreed' social norms is that not everyone agrees with them! If we all had exactly the same values and ideas about what constitutes decent behaviour, there would be no need for laws of any sort, and we'd all live in an anarchistic utopia. But people have different ideas, and it's one of the jobs of government to try to find a golden mean of standards that the largest number of people can agree on, and then impose those standards on everyone. Naturally, some people have values that don't fit these prescribed standards, and these people can be anyone from hippies living in a commune to thieves and murderers - both are choosing (in very different ways) to live outside the accepted norms. It can be good to challenge these norms - like hippies growing their own food, rejecting consumerism and so on, if it makes them happy - or it can be very bad, in the case of violent criminals. I'm certainly not saying I agree with all these norms, by any means - for example, I think our current drug laws are an affront to basic personal freedom - but I just think it's contrary to human nature (and believe it or not, there are still people who think there's such a thing) for a group of people to spontaneously agree on a set of norms or standards, and that for any group of people who haven't deliberately chosen to live together - such as a country - you need some kind of government to impose rules that the largest number of people consider fair and sensible.

matt b
24-01-2007, 05:19 PM
well central to that is the question 'why to people compete rather than co-operate?'

there are plenty of examples of anarchy in action, both big and small, so it can work, but no-one ever said it was going easy ;)

Mr. Tea
24-01-2007, 05:33 PM
well central to that is the question 'why to people compete rather than co-operate?'


There are two fundamental opposing forces in all human societies, and all humans, I think - the drive to cooperate, and the drive to compete. If we had only the former, we'd naturally live like termites or ants: it simply wouldn't occur to anyone to do anything of purely personal benefit. On the other hand, if we had only the latter instinct, we'd live like solitary creatures, coming together only to mate and raise young. Obviously no humans have ever 'naturally' lived at either of those extremes (although attempts at the former have been made, notably in the USSR and communist China).

To be reductionist for a moment, the urge to compete is down simply to ensuring the survival of one's own genes. Naturally, we're all far more concerned about the welfare of our own children than about anyone else's, for example. Balanced against this is the concept that by helping you, I can help you help me, whence arises cooperative and even altruistic behaviour. (In very crude terms, a bank is being momentarily 'altruistic' by lending me money, because it knows I'll have to pay it back later, with interest.) So there is constant conflict between these two opposing forces, and any kind of philosophy or political theory that seeks to deny one of them (anarchism on the one hand, Nietzsche on the other) is not going to work for any length of time.

Parson
24-01-2007, 06:29 PM
what does your question have to do with george washington or the nephilim?

you posted 3 of them, which one as well..?

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/osmanagic/
real question. i'm trying to set precedent.
did you read the article? it is a credible outlet of the scientific community.

zhao
24-01-2007, 06:48 PM
Mr. Tea, to summarize:

you have accused us of paranoia, stereotyped us as conspiracy theorists worthy of dismissal, ridiculed my claims for pervasive indoctrination. in response I have thoroughly answered all the questions you have asked, and addressed all the issues you have raised, while not calling you names and making a mockery of your statements (like you have done to us).

do you care to respond or at the very least acknowledge my efforts to keep a level headed and thoughtful discussion going?


well central to that is the question 'why to people compete rather than co-operate?'


another aspect of capitalism's misrepresentation of "nature" in order to justify its own predilection for violence is the exultation of competition as a virtue. while actually, in nature, there are much more examples of symbiotic relationships than competitively ones -- species which relie upon eachother for survival. yet we are constantly presented with pictures of our selves, our ancesters and the animal kingdom as dog-eat-dog, in ceaseless, violent struggle, where only the strongest survive. this is also a perversion of Darwin's theories of evolution - grossly exaggerating some aspects of it while ignoring the rest.

Parson
24-01-2007, 06:57 PM
from an early age we are all conditioned to rank things

whats your favorite color?

fuck you i like all kinds of colors in all kinds of combinations what kind of retarded question is that to ask a kid

Mr. Tea
24-01-2007, 07:27 PM
As I said, zhao, there is competition and cooperation everywhere. If it's a myth that nature is all about dog-eat-dog individualism, it's certainly a myth that we all lived in perfect peace and harmony before capitalism came along and ruined everything. For one thing, war has existed for millennia before capitalism ever existed, not that the effects of capitalism haven't sparked or exacerbated many conflicts since that system evolved.
Conflict is everywhere in nature - never seen two dogs growl at each other? Or two pigeons fight over a scrap of food?

And I'm not sure what you're getting about 'ranking' things, Parson. I don't think I'd been 'conditioned' into having a favourite colour as a kid, I just did, as do most people. It's natural to compare things, and to like some things more than others. Are you saying you don't have a favourite food, drink, type of music? Or at least, prefer some to others?

Parson
24-01-2007, 07:40 PM
i have a wide variety of tastes and moods

gek-opel
24-01-2007, 08:06 PM
Of course competition in capitalism is dogma, much of the time, and the natural unmodified status is massive monopolistic collusion, in many market places, and protectionism on the level of the state.

MATT MAson
24-01-2007, 08:21 PM
What about the modern acts of collabporation increasingly undermining competition within capitalism?

Things like open source culture and the democratization of media pose a real threat to many established industries. This, I would have thought, will have a profound knock on effect on many other things, not that it hasn't already.

Parson
24-01-2007, 09:04 PM
saying collabporation makes me think you're kidding but you seem to think you have a relevent point

Parson
24-01-2007, 09:06 PM
anyway you seem to be in agreement at this point

Parson
24-01-2007, 09:08 PM
that is to say if you are saying that these challenges to established industries would in turn dehomogenize our culture to the point that more people awaken from this psychic hold of the ongoing war of attrition

MATT MAson
24-01-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm serious. I think society is reaching a point where old hierachies won't matter so much anymore. It's gonna take a while yet, but things are changing.

Mr. Tea
24-01-2007, 11:17 PM
saying collabporation makes me think you're kidding but you seem to think you have a relevent point

If you have to resort to criticizing someone's spelling you've already lost the argument.

MATT MAson
24-01-2007, 11:30 PM
zigactly

Parson
25-01-2007, 12:16 AM
at first i thought he was trying to make up words (collaboration + corporation?)

MATT MAson
25-01-2007, 12:33 AM
That's not a bad useless media-meme actually. I think the big corporations of the future will be defined by collaboration.

more on this here: www.wikinomics.com

Parson
25-01-2007, 01:00 AM
i heard commentary and dissensus had merged to form dysentery

Parson
25-01-2007, 08:29 PM
jason molina on the nephilim:

Ring The Bell
help does not just walk up to you i could have told you that
i’m not an idiot
i could have told you that
in every serpent’s eye watch you go where you go
every serpents double tongue takes a turn with your soul
if you let them ring your bell (x2)
they’re ringing the bell (x2)
why wouldn’t i be trying to figure it out
everyone tells you that
everyone tells you not to quit
i can’t even see it to fight it
if it looks like i’m not trying i don’t care what it looks like
cause i stood at the altar and everything turned white
all I heard was the sound… of the world coming down around me (x2)
why wouldn’t i be trying
why wouldn’t i try (x2)
cause those double tongues are singing hear the wail of the choir through the fog
the sound of that choir through the fog
they’re always close they’re always so close always close always so close
if there’s a way out it will be step by step through the black (x2)
why wouldn’t i be trying to figure it out it don’t mean i’m not trying if i don’t make it back
i know serpents will cross universes to circle around our necks
i know hounds will cross universes to circle around our feet
i know they’re close
step by step one’s beside me to kill me or to guide me
why wouldn’t i be trying to figure which one out (x2)
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00005LOTI.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

zhao
25-01-2007, 10:49 PM
from an early age we are all conditioned to rank things

whats your favorite color?

fuck you i like all kinds of colors in all kinds of combinations what kind of retarded question is that to ask a kid

haha! :D (the straight face delivery is perfect) I've always thought this as a kid. could never decide, and always just said blue because it's what a lot of other kids said, and just to give the adults something.

but yes, hierarchical organization and subsequent dependence of/belief in/respect for/obedience to hiercharchies is most certainly learnt behavior, to be filed in the list of basic coding / indoctrination.

civilization maintains that man is at the top of the natural hierarchy - superior to all the other animals, and has the right to do with the earth what he pleases - how we got to the scary mess we're in.

MATT MAson
26-01-2007, 03:55 PM
Maybe we'll find out a little more about all this some time in mid-March.

Viva la Revolucion!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007040056,00.html

zhao
26-01-2007, 11:52 PM
the Sun is a bit dodgy but I'm excited

mms
27-01-2007, 11:02 AM
the Sun is a bit dodgy but I'm excited

the dude they quote is a bit dodge too.

try this, there are soem dead linx in there but it's an interesting site.
http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/

MATT MAson
27-01-2007, 09:56 PM
Good site indeed.

If even The Sun and the French government don't have all the answers, Science could, according to the New Scientist. Paul Davies said this in their Nov issue last year, just found it and thought it was relevant here:

"One of the great outstanding scientific mysteries is the origin of life. How did it happen? When I was a student, most scientists thought that life began with a stupendous chemical fluke, unique in the observable universe. Today it is fashionable to say that life is written into the laws of nature - easy to get started and therefore likely to be widespread in the universe. The truth is, nobody has a clue. It could be either extreme, or somewhere in the middle.

"We may soon know the answer, though. The clincher would be the discovery of a second
genesis on another planet, such as Mars. There is an easier possibility, however. If life really does form readily then we might expect it to have started many times over on Earth. There could be aliens right here, under our noses. Most life is microbial, and you can't tell just by looking whether a microbe is "our" life or alien. You need to analyse the chemical innards. The search for terrestrial aliens has only just begun. If they are here, they could be identified soon. And the discovery that all life on Earth did not, after all, have a common origin would virtually prove that we are not alone in the universe."

DJ PIMP
28-01-2007, 09:14 PM
Very much enjoying Magonia, thanks.

zhao
03-02-2007, 07:58 PM
0n the subject of mind control, and how fundamental beliefs about what our lives are lived for, what we strive toward, are shaped by evolving ideological constructs as related to capitalism ---- finally getting a chance to see all 4 episodes of the Century of the Self in their entirety... great, great stuff.

highly recommended. (especially to those who think they are masters of their own destiny)

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=century+of+the+self