Sarko Wins
- Thread starter vimothy
- Start date
vimothy
yurp
I know that he called them scum and said that the authorities should use power hoses on them. I saw "base sarkozy" graffiti on the news last night. But still, if Sarkozy manages to reform France's economic mess he will have done more for les banlieues than anyone else. Ironic that they hate him so much.
Guybrush
Dittohead
He is, but there is a lot to suggest that he honestly wants to lift the French immigrants out of their despair, that he does care for their well-being. I think those comments are forgivable, as they were uttered in the heat of the moment by a man who by all accounts is heated in any situation. Whether that is a good trait or not is for the future to decide.
Oops—x-post
crackerjack
Well-known member
Perhaps they might point out that's a very big IF. Not to mention that for those inhabitants who do have jobs, the trade off for lower unemployment is likely to be longer work for less money.
French politics is unusually fucked. It makes the UK and US look like bastions of an open access democracy. I'm not surprised Sarko won but it's hard to see much cause for optimism.
Guybrush
Dittohead
Yes, from Hungary.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Rich aristocratic ones. Hardly a "feel your pain" qualification.
Guybrush
Dittohead
How is it much worse than U.S. and U.K. politics?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
It'd only be fair if he wanted to create the economic conditions for immigrants to flourish - as opposed to languishing in enforced idleness (and poverty) on state benefits - given that he is himself an immigrant, or the son of immigrant parents at any rate. The classic conservative immigrant-made-good, in fact.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Virtually all French politicians are drawn from a very, very narrow elite - far worse than here. I also read during the 2005 riots that wasn't one single black or Muslim MP (or whatever the French equivalent is) - if this is correct it's a shocking reflection.
And do I have to mention the double-figures polling for Le Pens election after election?
He was born good.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
It's not quite fair to say "there aren't any Muslim MPs, it must be due to racism", as many Muslims believe it's wrong to take part in secular elections, and even those that don't think this are likely to put off a political career by the hardline views of religious and 'community' leaders. And many black people living in France are likely to be Muslims. Of course, I'm certainly not saying there isn't racism in French politics either, as evidenced by:
I was unaware of this, though:
Guess I must have assumed immigrants are generally poor(er than most people they settle among).
Guybrush
Dittohead
On the other hand, as Crackerjack points out, the gulf in Europe is between immigrants of non-European heritage, and the autochthonous population. In the statistics over here, immigrants from Europe often are excluded when the ‘immigration problem’ is discussed, for example. This is echoed in the sentiments of your average man, where an immigrant from Austria, say, is considered a full-grown citizen. I bet that the young French Muslims feel the same way—i.e. they consider Sarkozy a member of the French establishment.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Doesn't that only apply to the fringe headcases, HuT and so forth? It hasn't stopped Muslims participating in the British system and France has many, many more Muslims than the UK.
crackerjack
Well-known member
Just to quantify that: I believe the French figure is approx 10-12%. UK is closer to 3-4%.
vimothy
yurp
Think that France has huge problems with racism, and with chronic growth and stifling labour laws. All good reasons to elect Sarkozy. I'm not sure that the trade off will be longer hours for less money either - all the pro-Sarko voters I heard on the news were sying that they wanted Sarkozy to win because they wanted to work more and earn more. Poor immigrants stand to benefit as well.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
No, I think it's a fairly widespread opinion, at least in France. No idea if it applies to the overall majority, of course - but then, in reality, religious and ethnic demographics in France is a mystery due to their phobic aversion to any kind of population profiling (on the principle that "all French people are equal, so what's the point of taking surveys to find out how unequal we are? Which we're not, by the way. Or racist. At all").
I think the thing with Muslims failing to engage in politics is very much a two-way thing: they're made to feel unwelcome, shoved onto horrible housing estates and kept on the bottom rung of the economic ladder, so it's hardly surprising if they feel disinclined to take part politically and culturally, which just reinforces the prejudices against 'insular' Muslims, and so on.
Edit: I'm well aware of the huge (though uncertain) number of Muslims in France - I've heard they make up about half of all the Muslims in Europe.
vimothy
yurp
Have read several times on online Muslim forums that democracy and Islam are incompatible.