The UK has become (almost) irrelevant

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sapstra

New member
For me (in Holland) pop/rock/dance allways mainly has been an interplay between the States and the UK (with Jamaica doing its thing on the side). From the British Invasion, to pyschedelics, hardrock, glam, prog/artrock to punk and new wave/postpunk, Britain was the main mover or the best next thing. For non-dance music in my opinion this ended with The Jesus and Mary Chain, as being the last british guitar band to really make an impression over here (shoegazers never really did reach these shores). But then came dance, and after house and techno being mainly American, the UK came back with a vengeance with rave, jungle, IDM, triphop and big-beat. And then it began to become silent. Speedgarage was the last hype, 2 step had a little scene, and after that (1998) it really became silent, so that's been six years now.

I listen to grime, but i'm a white guy well in his thirties. People buy the streets over here, but they mainly seem to be a sort of rockists who want to keep up with the times and have developed a habit of looking towards the UK. The only people who i've seen asking for dizzee were balding men in their thirties, even forties. What do "the youngsters" listen to? Urban (Rap, R&B, dancehall) Metal (nu-metal, black metal, gothic metal) Trance and Electro(clash). All this stuff is from the states, jamaica or the continent (germany, scandinavia, holland). Grime is seen as funny sounding hiphop with mc's who can't really rap. I looked in the charts, and the only brit i found was Robbie Williams (you can add Bono and his friends to that if you like).

So i can only come to the conclusion that England has lost it's key position in music, and has become just another country, as important (or even less) as say Brasil, Germany or France.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any ideas on this?
 
Woebot

Woebot

Well-known member
sapstra said:
So i can only come to the conclusion that England has lost it's key position in music, and has become just another country, as important (or even less) as say Brasil, Germany or France.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any ideas on this?
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Yeah that sounds pretty fair enough. Though it might be because it appears Britain couldn't give a toss about global ambitions. Something like Grime fr'instance, it's almost hilarious this, it's so local that the eastside/westside london thing is ACTUALLY an issue! Its totally comic this, crews 20 miles away are opposed on the basis of their geography. Somebody compared the UK thing with East Coast vs West Coast or Houston vs New York, but no its absurdly microcosmic.

Though I suppose the Old Skool Brooklyn vs Bronx thing is somewhat similar.
 
E

egg

Dumpy's Rusty Nut
sapstra said:
For me (in Holland) pop/rock/dance allways mainly has been an interplay between the States and the UK (with Jamaica doing its thing on the side)...What do "the youngsters" listen to? Urban (Rap, R&B, dancehall) Metal (nu-metal, black metal, gothic metal) Trance and Electro(clash). All this stuff is from the states, jamaica or the continent (germany, scandinavia, holland). Grime is seen as funny sounding hiphop with mc's who can't really rap. I looked in the charts, and the only brit i found was Robbie Williams (you can add Bono and his friends to that if you like).

So i can only come to the conclusion that England has lost it's key position in music, and has become just another country, as important (or even less) as say Brasil, Germany or France.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any ideas on this?
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I want to contradict you, because I love England and I believe we rock harder than all other countries. But it's hard.

But is it true to say that rap/r&b/dancehall is developing in the US/Jamaica? Is metal moving forward? Trance/Electro? I genuinely don't know, I'm asking. Are they exciting? All the kids round here listen to is fucking metal - but they might as well be listening to metal from the 70s or 90s as far as I can see, it's not evolving.

England still rules the world through Simon Cowell/19's conquering of the American charts, don't forget. We still have the sickest ideas :D

Was jungle ever seen as anything other than funny sounding gay house/ sped up hip hop? Yet it was absorbed and reimported thru Timbaland and others. Grime may do the same (although I'm tempted instead by the notion that the UK finally has its own embryonic decent rap scene, with Dizzee sounding like RunDMC, GLC like Slick Rick and The Streets like A Tribe Called Quest).
 
P

Pearsall

Prodigal Son
I can't see grime artists conquering America, but I can see the sounds being ripped off very soon by American producers (after all, Timbaland based his early career around jacking jungle's rhythm ideas). The sound of the mc's is too alien for mass market American ears, and the slang is so complex and distinctive that people won't understand what is being said and just be turned off.
 
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captain easychord

Guest
^^^^ you're right, the anglophile crew can't hold it down for grime in north america. that said, toronto latched on to british jungle during the late mid-90's, for a few years it had a scene that eclipsed london's in size and intensity. maybe the same thing will happen with grime? (wishful thinking...)
 
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ryan17

Well-known member
To take a slightly different angle on this. the states has a highly developed and extremely well connected underground network at work with more rock based genres (ie punk, rock, indie). Kids can start bands very easily, less need to rent out practice spaces because many people have basements. There are more shows/concerts going on and they are cheaper. All of these factors are important for this 'scene' Many of the HUGE 'radio rock' bands (Green Day, Blink 182. White Stripes) who pretty much dominate the sales in those genres all came from this 'scene' and played the same venues that are still used and visited by all the underground punk kids.

(how it relates to this thread) The U.K. lacks this sort of system. I think because of this it has lost out heavily on the 'rock' end of the spectrum.
 
P

Pearsall

Prodigal Son
captain easychord said:
^^^^ you're right, the anglophile crew can't hold it down for grime in north america. that said, toronto latched on to british jungle during the late mid-90's, for a few years it had a scene that eclipsed london's in size and intensity. maybe the same thing will happen with grime? (wishful thinking...)
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because of cultural and historical links I wouldn't be surprised if grime turned out to be (relatively) bigger in Canada than in the US. plus there's the sheer size of the US and our own pretty thoroughly entrenched black/white musical culture(s) - Jamaican music, despite its incredible levels of quality and decades of American exposure to it, only occasionally has songs/albums/artists become succesful in America. for ages people have been predicting the big breakthrough for latino artists in America but, bar a certain cheesy-grinned neo-cabaret orange-skinned dude and a woman with a famously big butt, hispanic music is still a niche market.

anyways, I can't see the mc's becoming big stars in North America (whether they will in Britain I'm kind of doubtful about anyways), but I do think the production side of it will have an impact. whenever I've played it to people I know who are into hip-hop over here most like the beats (in a "weird-but-cool" way) but they aren't sure about the mc's (although I've found that Kano is the one that people tend to 'get' the most).
 
C

captain easychord

Guest
Pearsall said:
because of cultural and historical links I wouldn't be surprised if grime turned out to be (relatively) bigger in Canada than in the US. plus there's the sheer size of the US and our own pretty thoroughly entrenched black/white musical culture(s) - Jamaican music, despite its incredible levels of quality and decades of American exposure to it, only occasionally has songs/albums/artists become succesful in America. for ages people have been predicting the big breakthrough for latino artists in America but, bar a certain cheesy-grinned neo-cabaret orange-skinned dude and a woman with a famously big butt, hispanic music is still a niche market.

anyways, I can't see the mc's becoming big stars in North America (whether they will in Britain I'm kind of doubtful about anyways), but I do think the production side of it will have an impact. whenever I've played it to people I know who are into hip-hop over here most like the beats (in a "weird-but-cool" way) but they aren't sure about the mc's (although I've found that Kano is the one that people tend to 'get' the most).
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yeah, the whole reason jungle blew up in toronto was a relatively large "youth" demographic (there just happened to be tons of teenagers running around in the TO those days), most of the (white) kids that got turned onto jungle were coming from a suburban punk rock/hardcore background. they siezed upon jungle because at that point it had the whole "street" hip-hop thing (which didn't have the sonic intensity it does now), while posessing the level of energy they were used to in the punk scene. And because it was british and exotic, there weren't the same snaggly issues regarding authenticity + race that you have with conventional hip-hop. plus toronto's relatively easy race relations mirrored london's. tons of first+second generation carribean youth got into jungle.

i'm sure paul autonomic has a lot to say about toronto + anglophilia (i think he's doing a dissertation or something on jungle!)
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
ryan17 said:
(how it relates to this thread) The U.K. lacks this sort of system. I think because of this it has lost out heavily on the 'rock' end of the spectrum.
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fundamentally disagree on this point- there is a massive set of underground network(s), mostly not wanting to touch the mainstream- take leeds for example, where you can go to DIY not for profit gigs 3-4 times a week, plenty of cheap and dirty club/pub nights, houseparties, squats etc. there are even free listing zines and stuff for this (and in nottingham).
 
M

mms

sometimes
it's a shame but i think you are right, the uk music scene is a bit of a wasteland.
you have one end which is the vampiric covers acts of simon cowell etc and then you have retro rock creating a massive vaccum. The people in the middle don't have the cash to really make a go of things and the majors have got the british music press, the stores and televison locked down, its a total stasis and the whole approach needs to be revised.
 
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ryan17

Well-known member
matt b said:
fundamentally disagree on this point- there is a massive set of underground network(s), mostly not wanting to touch the mainstream- take leeds for example, where you can go to DIY not for profit gigs 3-4 times a week, plenty of cheap and dirty club/pub nights, houseparties, squats etc. there are even free listing zines and stuff for this (and in nottingham).
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leeds is the only exception to the rule as far as i have been able to tell. they have basements there and that has really helped them develop their d.i.y. scene. Vorhees and The Horror (both from leeds) were also very popular in the american 'hardcore' scene because they had similar fundamental characteristics as american d.i.y. bands.

i can understand what you are getting at but in all honesty from someone who has experienced the 'd.i.y.' scene in both places it is really impossible to compare to the network found in the states.
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
ryan17 said:
i can understand what you are getting at but in all honesty from someone who has experienced the 'd.i.y.' scene in both places it is really impossible to compare to the network found in the states.
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yeah, i think i may have ome across a touch harsh, especially as, living round leeds you see an extremely vibrant self-contained scene (or scenes- vibra cathedral orchestra et al have links as, to some extent to v3ctor) that have flourished with little coverage anywhere. if they were from london and played the game, bilge pump could be extremely popular for example.

nottingham has a lot of similarities with leeds too.

a key difference re: USA/UK diy scenes are the geographical distances involved- you do not need the same type of network when you can do gigs in most of the uk and drive home afterwards.
 
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ryan17

Well-known member
i don't know anything about nottingham scene but one thing i would say is i am fairly sure the ratio of d.i.y bands in the states to d.i.y bands here is still very unbalanced. i don't know exactly why that is.

you can also look at the sheer number of d.i.y. labels in the states, i can't really think of any 'major' ones here.

again this is only a branch of this thread. but my arguement is that the widely developed strong underground scene is the reason for american music thriving on all levels.
 
H

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
sapstra said:
So i can only come to the conclusion that England has lost it's key position in music, and has become just another country, as important (or even less) as say Brasil, Germany or France.

I'm curious to know if anyone has any ideas on this?
Click to expand...
If you ask me, "just" as important as Germany is pretty much as important as it gets. Should I for some bizarre reason choose to listen to music from just one country, my choice wouldn't be between UK and US, but UK and Germany. I've tried to do a little statistics on my favorite records of the 00s so far, and it turned out that out of the top 50 only three was american, but seventeen german and eleven british. And seven was french, so France too is a pretty good "just another country" by my taste.

But then, by what standarts do we judge "important"? American rock and rap is everywhere and it's certanily what the kids listen to. If that makes it important, then so be it, there'still scenes all over europe, and probably most of the world, strong enough to sustain themselves without the support of the mainstream media. Grime may be ridiculously microcosmic, but it's still delivering much more amazing stuff than any recent US hip hop I've heard.
 
M

Melchior

Taking History Too Far
I can see where you all are coming from, but given that all I'm listening to at the moment is grime, uk hip hop and the like, it's hardly irrelevent to me!
 
J

juliand

Well-known member
For another odd wrinkle to this whole thing--many scene watchers and City Weekly writers keep a close eye on the British music press before they'll write about bands over here; I can think of several bands that labored in opening slots and small shows here in San Francisco (BRMC, and the Rapture being two key examples) before moving away, breaking in the UK, then being taken up by the US press a year later. And only then getting their Bay Guardian article, or a headlining slot.

OF course, this went down equally with every band in the NYC scene; you bet that LCD Soundsystem wouldn't be on the cover of any US magazine, but there they are, on the cover of the Wire. If they succeed there, Spin and the weeklies may bite.

It seems to be a conventional label strategy--our weeklies don't seem to be too great at breaking new bands except in NYC, and its nearly impossible to build a national audience here without doing what Interpol or the Faint did, and touring constantly for two years on a single record. Part of this may be simply that the US is too big, and the mainstream music press too in love with "celebrities"; we seem to need the UK microcosm for musical R & D. A testing ground.

Grime's another issue--I just don't think it'll go over here until it gets more obvious; its got a groove, but it ain't dance music. It seems much more likely, as it was said a few posts ago, that American or British R&B producers will pick and choose the parts they like and run with them (this, for instance, is what happened between the Bay hiphop scene and Crunk--from local avant-garde to international pop)
 
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DavidD

can't be stopped
Pearsall said:
(after all, Timbaland based his early career around jacking jungle's rhythm ideas).
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I find this connection pretty tenuous; that sort of rhthmic stuff was in miami bass and new orleans bounce. I'm not saying there wasn't a connection neccessarily (although, for the record, I believe Timbaland has denied having heard jungle prior to recording "One in a Million" in interviews, although I wouldn't be able to verify this). But I think there was a lot more to Timbo's early rhythmic ideas than jungle.
 
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dialectic_bricks

Member
DavidD said:
I find this connection pretty tenuous; that sort of rhthmic stuff was in miami bass and new orleans bounce. I'm not saying there wasn't a connection neccessarily (although, for the record, I believe Timbaland has denied having heard jungle prior to recording "One in a Million" in interviews, although I wouldn't be able to verify this). But I think there was a lot more to Timbo's early rhythmic ideas than jungle.
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I agree. I don't believe Tim was aware of what was going in the jungle/d'n'b scene until several writers made the comparison. And indeed alot of the bounce music I heard when I lived in Louisiana in the early nineties rhythmically wasn't too far away from what Tim was doing (sans the booty chant into "Iko Iko" thump-a-lump-lump).
 
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simon silverdollar

Guest
matt b said:
fundamentally disagree on this point- there is a massive set of underground network(s), mostly not wanting to touch the mainstream- take leeds for example, where you can go to DIY not for profit gigs 3-4 times a week, plenty of cheap and dirty club/pub nights, houseparties, squats etc. there are even free listing zines and stuff for this (and in nottingham).
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that's true. same thing in liverpool as well. the north west in general has a hugely active diy punk/hardcore/underground rock scene.
 
B

bun-u

Trumpet Police
I think Britain’s problem is that there are too many music journalists. They often suffocate scenes before they have time to develop, so micro scenes can only flourish if they are effective at handling or sidestepping media – elsewhere in the world they seem to be able to grow steadily over time. The other problem is that Europe/the States must’ve tired of UK music hacks telling them about the next big brit thing, I mean how many false ‘new brit invasion’ dawns have there been in the last 20 yrs?
 
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