The power of suggestion

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
So just *how* powerful is it? Specifically, what are the limits of the placebo effect?

I've been wondering for a while if it's possible to commit suicide by overdosing on placebos; that is, taking a large number of essentially inactive pills, believing them to contain a powerful drug, and actually dying as a result. Of course, if the pills were slighly active - enough to cause physical symptoms such as stomach cramps or nausea - this would only reinforce the would-be suicide's belief that s/he was about to die.
Has anyone else thought about this, or heard of any relevant real-life events?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
It is incredibly powerful but I think it has definite limits and you have picked a good example.

My immediate feeling is that placebos can induce a simulation of death, but not the real thing.

I read some stuff once about yogis or shamans being able to lower or temporarily stop their heartbeats = simulation of death.

Also read some stuff about vampires/zombies actually being people who had been buried alive and then come back in a bit of a state - i.e. they must have seemed dead, but were not.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yeah, the zombie thing is pretty interesting, but I think it has tended to involve actual drugs (perhaps delieriants, such as datura). Scary, fascinating subject. The thing the shamans can do is amazing - I've heard about these monks in Tibet who can sit on a mountain side in sub-zero temperatures, covered in wet flannels (!) and raise their body temperature so much the water just steams off them, instead of freezing, and before long they're completely dry.

I have to admit, I was reminded of this by the episode of Dalziel and Pascoe that was on last night, where some forensic psychologist said (I think) that someone could die if they were convinced they'd been poisoned, even if they hadn't. Could be complete rubbish, of course.
 
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sodiumnightlife

Sweet Virginia
kind of reminds me of the theory that if you die in a dream you will actually die. What are peoples opinions on this? Im not entirely convinced, though dreams are powerful things, i have been stabbed in a dream and woke up with a lot of pain in my side that did, however, quickly subside when i realised it had been a dream.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
In my experience, dieing in a dream induces waking up and a bit of confusion, but little else.

And we are talking about psychology and physiology, and their effect on each other, rather than magic, I reckon.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well, I don't know about 'magic', as such, but there are certainly some very interesting and as yet poorly-understood links between the body and the mind. Dying in real life because you died in a dream does sound a bit fanciful, though - but even so, if you had a weak heart or epilepsy or something, perhaps a very traumatic dream could trigger a heart attack or some kind of seizure, which could potentially be fatal?

Regarding sodiumnightlife's experience with a pain in his side, I would say what's probably happened is that he's developed a pain due to pulling a muscle or trapping a nerve, perhaps by sleeping in a funny position (as you do sometimes), and had a dream about being stabbed as a result. Then maybe the pain was 'reinforced' by the dream, and hence subsided when he woke up? Just an idea.

On a slightly related note, does anyone else here find that when tripping or coming up on a pill, they get a feeling of tension or anxiety, which is immediately and pleasurably dissipated by having a really good burp? The link between physical pressure and psychological pressure is startling.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Now I come to think about it, it's theoretically possible that you could feed yourself loads of placebos and then induce a heart attack in yourself because of the stress of believing you are about to die.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Now I come to think about it, it's theoretically possible that you could feed yourself loads of placebos and then induce a heart attack in yourself because of the stress of believing you are about to die.

Sure, but I was really talking about a purely psychosomatic event, something that could occur in a physically healthy person, not someone who's already got a dodgy ticker, for example.

And I assume you mean "Me and Mr Tea"? :slanted:
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Sure, but I was really talking about a purely psychosomatic event, something that could occur in a physically healthy person, not someone who's already got a dodgy ticker, for example.

And I assume you mean "Me and Mr Tea"? :slanted:

I did mean that, and thought it flowed really well. But then cocked it up. Grrr.

I don't believe that you could do it as a purely psychosomatic event under "normal" non-weakheart non-shamanic conditions.

Unfortunately (ho ho) it's not the sort of experiment which would get past an ethics committee. Those goddamn liberals!
 

martin

----
Alternatively, if you took a placebo and were convinced that the effects would be extremely beneficial - in terms of granting superhuman strength or an enhanced immune system, etc, could this conceivably work?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Alternatively, if you took a placebo and were convinced that the effects would be extremely beneficial - in terms of granting superhuman strength or an enhanced immune system, etc, could this conceivably work?

I reckon in some cases it might work for the immune system because there is a big psychological element there - "I am a well person" vs "I am a sick person" can make a large difference.

Essentially that is what doctors allegedly used sugared pills for anyway?
 
kind of reminds me of the theory that if you die in a dream you will actually die. What are peoples opinions on this?

There is a 100% correlation between dreaming of dying and then dying at some later point.

I once read an account of a soldier sleeping on a large object draped with canvas aboard a packed troop ship. He dreamt that he was lying on top of a cage full of ravenous lions which disturbed him so much he woke up and moved elsewhere. Turned out it was a live depth charge dispenser and he would have been killed if it had been set off in the night.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Interesting anecdote, but bear in mind how many people don't receive 'psychic warnings' of their impending doom...

Edit: sorry, 'psychic' sounds silly - I guess we could be talking here about an example of a man subconsciously suspecting himself to be in danger and being warned by his subconscious via a dream, or in other cases a 'hunch' or 'premonition' which would, from the point of view of the conscious mind, appear to be parapsychological in nature.
 
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