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h-crimm
28-01-2005, 07:32 PM
does anyone have any interest setting up a bit torrent tracker to make things discussed on this message board available?

we'd have to come to some conclusion on the digital rights thread, but it could be very useful for opening up access to the music and film thats talked about.
its an interesting principal to make everything thats discussed uniformly available to members... maybe not daytrippers like me...
we could take an unlimited-access supscription and issue an anonymous dividend direct to artists... or only share stuff by dead people or thats out of print or not for commercial release (e.g. radio sets)...
make it an alternative model, like that torrent site did for windows SP2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3551576.stm)

theres also the technical side but i think its got easier with recent releases... anyone know anything about eXeem?

turtles
28-01-2005, 10:25 PM
anyone know anything about eXeem?
Don't know too much except that you should use Exeem Lite, which is the spyware-free version. Get it at http://exlite.net/

Network is still in its early stages though seemingly. Fair amount of bugs and I'm having problems connecting to the network. I'm sure it'll get big soon though, given suprnova's dominance of the bitorrent world prior to this.

seahorsegenius
15-02-2005, 03:55 AM
yea i second this idea. make torrent (http://krypt.dyndns.org:81/torrent/maketorrent/index.phtml) is easy enough to use. just don't know how to get a tracker or whatever. it's pretty hard to hear half the stuff on here, especially when you live in the US.

Pearsall
26-02-2005, 09:41 PM
I think this is a pretty cool idea.

Anyone know how to set up a tracker?

h-crimm
01-03-2005, 02:55 AM
hey,

i just managed to sucessfully seed crazy titch 'gully' using the inbuilt tracker in the bit torrent azureus client. i dont have a fixed IP and i'm about to go home from work so theres no point telling you were it is, but if we use this bit torrent front end all we need for a tracker is a fixed IP address that we can use to announce the torrents and host the seeds. i guess we could ask for an area on the riddims.ca site
in most sensible countries hosting torrent seeds isnt illegal because they do not contain the copyrighted material... i think canada is one of those countries...

a big thing we'd need to discuss for this to happen is what we consider fair use.... i kno alot of people already use filesharing to get hold of grime because its nearly impossible any other way outside of london. to me thats totally okay but not everyone agrees.
perhaps only live/radio sets (things that arnt for release) are allowed or we could agree a flat subscription to the group and pay dividends to the artists... dont kno how workable that is and whether people would get pissed off when they found out what was up.
i do think wider distribution is in all the artists interest but thats obviously just my opinion


i should get round to emailing the riddims.ca guy....

Pearsall
01-03-2005, 03:28 AM
I'm actually one of the administrators at Riddim.ca. Paul (da big boss) and I talked about this in email the other day. I'd be up for it personally, just cos I have tons of sets that if they were uploaded directly to the site would eat Paul's bandwidth alive.

For the moment I'd say probably keep it to radio/live sets, and maybe dvd rips and mix cd's as well (although we'd have to email the people who've put em out).

I dunno, though, email Paul with what you know and we can see about it.

nomos
01-03-2005, 05:10 AM
Here I am (the riddim.ca guy). I like this Torrent idea, although I'm not totally clear on how it works from the seeding end of things. When you host a seed does it mean that you're hosting a small .torrent file rather than the actual audio file? If it's the former, then I can't imagine the server load being too heavy, right? All all of the actual audio files just user to user without going throught the torrent server, correct?

I'd be totally up for this, but I'm really concerned about one thing: it becoming a hub for trading copywritten and pre-release material without permission. Personally, I'd love to get my hands on whatever's available, but I don't want to get my webspace shut down or to inspire anyone's (or worse, anyone's lawyer's) wrath. I 'm not sure how to make certain that people only trade what they're supposed to.

What do you folks think?

Pearsall
01-03-2005, 05:53 AM
Here I am (the riddim.ca guy). I like this Torrent idea, although I'm not totally clear on how it works from the seeding end of things. When you host a seed does it mean that you're hosting a small .torrent file rather than the actual audio file? If it's the former, then I can't imagine the server load being too heavy, right? All all of the actual audio files just user to user without going throught the torrent server, correct?

The actual website only hosts the little torrent file, and people use it to connect to the seeders from their Bit Torrent app. See http://filemp3.org for an example of how a typical BT site works.


I'd be totally up for this, but I'm really concerned about one thing: it becoming a hub for trading copywritten and pre-release material without permission. Personally, I'd love to get my hands on whatever's available, but I don't want to get my webspace shut down or to inspire anyone's (or worse, anyone's lawyer's) wrath. I 'm not sure how to make certain that people only trade what they're supposed to.

What do you folks think?

Well, either limit uploading privileges to certain people, or maybe have a minimum file size (say 10-15 megs) so that individual tracks can't get traded. Probably at first it wouldn't be too busy so it would be easy to take down torrents with copyright material and ban persistent offenders, which would give time to come up with some better solution.

fldsfslmn
01-03-2005, 07:13 AM
I share many of the concerns voiced here. I am firmly on Canadian soil and so is my webserver. Got some bandwidth to spare, but wonder what the hit would be?

nomos
01-03-2005, 09:56 PM
In the meantime, I've just set up an area in the Riddim Links section for links to pages with audio. Any member of the site can submit a link. An Admin has to approve it (in the Submissions area of the Admin Page) before it gets added to the database.

h-crimm
02-03-2005, 09:04 AM
hey sorry,

i will reply eventually... i think this should be uite easy to set up. the main problem being helping people understand how to set up the software and seed material...
i'm stresssing out quite alot this week, its the collaboration meeting for my experiment and i'm giving a talk about my work tomorrow so grime trading's on hold for now.

nomos
02-03-2005, 02:18 PM
I'm in about the same boat as h-crimm - very interested but too busy this week to do much about it. Still interested in any practical info people dig up.

believekevin
06-03-2005, 09:53 PM
perhaps this will help:

<a href="http://www.blogtorrent.com/">blog torrent</a> by dhb..

h-crimm
07-03-2005, 09:05 AM
i'm on night shift at the tevatron this week so i have to be online midnight to 8a.m.
we can do a test any day this week during those hours if people want.

i linked to some help pages to install the neccessary programs then for some reason closed my browser :( so i'll have to start again

heres where to download azureus and the java you need (if you dont have it) (http://azureus.sourceforge.net/download.php)

and heres the azureus user guide (http://azureus.sourceforge.net/doc/Azureus%20User%20Guide.htm)

i run it in linux and set it up using the instructions here... for fedora core 3 (http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_3_installation_notes.html#Azureus)

interestingly i appear to be given the same IP at work everytime i use my laptop... okay so i only looked the last few times...
this means we can do a test on my personal announce url to see if its worth doing with a small number of people sharing

i'm not sure how to set up an outside url to be the announce page, although its pretty straight forward to input it into the make torrent wizard in azureus once we kno the address. you may need to have a port opened to bittorrent in the websites firewall which might be a problem for the commercial company who host the riddims.ca site since bittorrent is being targetted at the moment by the lawyers.
but i'm not sure about this anyway... it might be we just need any url

dyou know what the riddims.ca fixed IP is? does that make sense? i can try announcing to a port on it and see if i can find the seed served there...

also if you have the client set up and you want to test it i'm seeding some radio sets so i'll give you the port o. and my IP and you we try it out
just message me on here and i'll tell you where (only if i recognise your dissensus alias tho)

poil
07-03-2005, 03:38 PM
http://www.gotilk.com/bittorrent_podcast.html

It's about podcasting but it has a clear explanation of bittorrent use for us windoze lusers, and about free trackers.

sufi
08-03-2005, 06:33 PM
well i don't know fa about bit-torrent, i tried it once but it was too complex to set up in one sitting so i gave up, so is there any particular reason you favor it?
because....
i got plenty of webspace - i have a pc linked to adsl so i can add HDs as necessary - currently a couple of gigs are spare
you can up & download anonymously at:
ftp://railtonroad.com/upload/

simple as that really

welcome all from dissensus
mebbie email me if you drop anything nice, or got any question? sufi@metronet.co.uk

speed seems fine atm, tho it may reduce if the site gets busier, i can sort out more permanent webspace on that server if anyone wants some .... let me know

i'm also working on an oscommerce site on a secure server for selling stuff: mixes, promos, download, mailorder, whatever..... anyone interested in being involved? emails/pm !

peace & love to you all
soofa
xxx

nomos
09-03-2005, 02:52 PM
That's a really nice offer, Sufi. Thanks.

I'm actually starting to think that my server may be a little more capable than I'd originally thought. I'm supposed to have a 40 Gb/month bandwidth limit, which I may exceed now that stuff on Riddim is being leached by external links. But I went into the Admin panel the other day and noticed that under Bandwidth Limit it said "N/A." So we'll see how N/A it really is.

Canada J Soup
23-03-2005, 07:49 AM
If Blog Torrent does what it says on the tin, I can really see it taking off. I don't have any webspace of my own currently, but I'm incredibly tempted to set something up just to see if it's as idiot proof as they claim.

As far as regular old tracker sites are concerned, the people who run indietorrents.com seem to have developed an efficient model. The site is invite only, uploads are monitored to ensure they are as 'RIAA Safe' as possible and users' access rights are predicated on seed/leech ratios so everyone who wants something has to contribute to the network. They also have guidelines in place that keep traffic moving very quickly that I have yet to see elsewhere (use of default ports on BT client is discouraged to prevent ISP throttling, port forwarding is required). Maybe not the best place to go if you're not keen on rules (or computers), but it certainly runs more smoothly than any other trackers I've been on.

The source code used on indietorrents should be available somewhere at http://www.t2k2.com (the direct link I had is dead).

Woebot
15-02-2015, 02:03 PM
am i alone in thinking that torrent downloads are unethical?

so tempting to get a bunch of classic films but don't think i'd be cool with it.

leading to another question... why the totally absurd pricing model for movies to download from iTunes?

is there a solid legal alternative?

sufi
16-02-2015, 10:42 AM
am i alone in thinking that torrent downloads are unethical?
not the torrenting as much as the pirated content, arguably. torrenting is quite egalitarian

is there a solid legal alternative?
http://vufind.lib.bbk.ac.uk/vufind/Search/Results?lookfor=werner+herzog&type=AllFields&submit=Find

Woebot
16-02-2015, 03:06 PM
Second hand dvd's on Amazon, tons of stuff that comes to about £3 incl. postage. Might as well get a physical copy if it's cheaper or similar in price to a download.

think you've nailed it.

Woebot
16-02-2015, 03:09 PM
not the torrenting as much as the pirated content, arguably. torrenting is quite egalitarian

hilarious from the wiki


"In the study used to value NBC Universal in its merger with Comcast, Envisional examined the 10,000 torrent swarms managed by PublicBT which had the most active downloaders. After excluding pornographic and unidentifiable content, it was found that only one swarm offered legitimate content."


http://vufind.lib.bbk.ac.uk/vufind/Search/Results?lookfor=werner+herzog&type=AllFields&submit=Find

oof - yep you're right but no fanks ;-)

droid
16-02-2015, 03:28 PM
Second hand dvd's on Amazon, tons of stuff that comes to about £3 incl. postage. Might as well get a physical copy if it's cheaper or similar in price to a download.

Legal, but surely no more ethical in that the original creators get nothing, other than perhaps satisfying some abstract moral desire to 'pay' for something? The end result is the same as pirating - perhaps worse as the second hand buyer is in fact willing to pay something, where the pirate is not, so it is genuine 'lost' revenue.

See also, libraries and the paltry fees they pay.

Leo
16-02-2015, 05:57 PM
agree droid. on the other hand, i can justify buying second-hand cds/vinyl by looking at the potential promotional value. i wouldn't pay $20 for a new copy of an album by an artist i didn't know or was unsure of, but i'm sometimes willing to take a chance on discovering that same artist if i find a used copy for $3. while it doesn't happen all the time, there have been cases where i've purchased a discounted used album, loved it, and subsequently went out and bought new copies of the artists back catalog and/or went to see them perform live.

re: the ethical issue, pretty much the only music i've illegally downloaded was stuff that's hopelessly out of print (old, or sold-out ltd edition vinyl, etc.)

droid
16-02-2015, 10:19 PM
Exactly the same argument could be (and is) used to justify piracy though.

I suggested on a reggae board a few year back that some kind of droit de suite for the resale of records could be a good thing in terms of keeping prices down and allowing artists to claw back money that would be otherwise go to collectors. Met with derision of course, but the fact is that secondhand sales give absolutely no benefit to the author and have the potential to deprive them of huge amounts of income, whist allowing third parties to profit.

So yeah, buying secondhand. Eases the conscience, but arguably morally worse than piracy.

Leo
16-02-2015, 10:56 PM
that can also apply to sales of used anything. if i buy a used 2011 corolla, toyota doesn't get any money from that sale. same if i buy an old sweater at a thrift shop or a coffee table at my neighbor's yard sale. i understand your point and agree in theory, but it doesn't seem realistic in the real world.

droid
16-02-2015, 11:13 PM
Ah - but it already exists! This isnt an aspiration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_de_suite

I would also make the distinction between mass produced consumer goods and 'art'. Difficult to disentangle from entertainment I agree, but you could make a reasonable argument that resale rights should extend to recorded material.

Leo
17-02-2015, 02:23 PM
ah, ok. the exclusion of mass produced goods makes sense, interesting idea.

Woebot
18-02-2015, 11:48 AM
Legal, but surely no more ethical in that the original creators get nothing, other than perhaps satisfying some abstract moral desire to 'pay' for something? The end result is the same as pirating - perhaps worse as the second hand buyer is in fact willing to pay something, where the pirate is not, so it is genuine 'lost' revenue.

See also, libraries and the paltry fees they pay.

interesting thought.

though i suppose i'm less cynical about what you describe as "the moral desire to pay for something" - using your argument secondhand music shops wouldn't ever have existed which would would both have weakened music (second only to the dole in propping up the culture) and deprive lots of people of jobs (often but not quite the same thing)

and also where would that place reissues?

i'm no socialist though - and to my (obviously decadent, spiritually bankrupt and corrupt) mind - often money=energy.

droid
18-02-2015, 12:55 PM
interesting thought.

though i suppose i'm less cynical about what you describe as "the moral desire to pay for something" - using your argument secondhand music shops wouldn't ever have existed which would would both have weakened music (second only to the dole in propping up the culture) and deprive lots of people of jobs (often but not quite the same thing)

This is kind of a side argument though. People could easily claim 'without soulseek/piratebay I never would have discovered artist x/y/z and bought their music. It doesn't address the assumption that buying 2nd hand is more 'ethical' than pirating.*

if there was a Droit de suite for 2nd hand sales I imagine it would work something like publishing. 2nd hand shops document sales and pay % royalties to a central body which would then pass them on to registered artists...


and also where would that place reissues?

No effect I would say. reissues often tend to pay the original creators better than the first releases. Bootlegs would still be bootlegs.


i'm no socialist though - and to my (obviously decadent, spiritually bankrupt and corrupt) mind - often money=energy.

If you really believed that you wouldn't have spent so many years writing for free on the internet! ;)

*In case its not clear, Im just ruminating here, not passing judgement on anything or anybody.

john eden
18-02-2015, 03:36 PM
Who actually gets paid if you buy a new DVD though?

Genuine question, because I don't know. I'd imagine most of the crew working on a film don't get paid because they would have earned wages whilst doing it. Or the minor "extra" actors for that matter.

I'd guess the director and producer and the major actors get paid something, but presumably they have been handsomely rewarded for their efforts already anyway?

I don't think a "flat" ethical framework is useful for illegally downloading stuff. If people want to get free copies of things produced by millionaires that is fine by me, but I'd baulk at people ripping off stuff produced by struggling artists.

droid
18-02-2015, 03:51 PM
Who actually gets paid if you buy a new DVD though?

Genuine question, because I don't know. I'd imagine most of the crew working on a film don't get paid because they would have earned wages whilst doing it. Or the minor "extra" actors for that matter.

I'd guess the director and producer and the major actors get paid something, but presumably they have been handsomely rewarded for their efforts already anyway?

I don't think a "flat" ethical framework is useful for illegally downloading stuff. If people want to get free copies of things produced by millionaires that is fine by me, but I'd baulk at people ripping off stuff produced by struggling artists.

The crucial question.

There are 3 reasons to pay for art/media:

1) So that the 'creators' (artists/corporations/publishers etc..) will/can continue to produce work.
2) Because it is ethical to pay for the work in question in the spirit of fair exchange.
3) Because people like to feel that they are honest and principled and paying makes the consumer feel like they are doing the 'right' thing.

These are the motivations we pick and choose from when we decide to pirate or not pirate.

If you download an out of print 80's dancehall LP that is only available secondhand for $300 then 1+2 do not apply.

If you download a Hollywood movie, then 2 and arguably 1 does not apply.

If you download an LP by an underground artist from an independent label, then 1 & 2 both apply.

3 is the only absolute as its a personal principle, and, as in the 2nd hand example, it could be argued that this is morally worse than piracy anyway. An ethical fig leaf.

john eden
19-02-2015, 11:26 AM
Yes I think that is a good way of looking at it.

There is a secondary aspect to (1) which I think Matt was getting at, which is to support a wider culture of music makers / shops / venues etc.

I personally think that buying records from actual physical shops - regardless of whether the record is new or used, is a good thing. That is because I want to support the survival of record shops and those who work in them (except some of the twats at MVE).

The same applies to small labels, distributors etc and also maybe people I know who create music that flog second hand records as sideline.

There is a problem with this though, which means it has to be of secondary importance. Most of the shops are staffed and managed by white men who live in London. If I buy a 2nd hand dancehall record from them it is whitey who is getting the money rather than the creator of the music in Kingston. (Obviously this doesn't take into account the galactic levels of fuckery in the JA music biz which mean artists rarely get paid anyway).

sufi
04-03-2015, 04:07 PM
this is surprising,
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/deals/amazon?utm_source=MSE_Newsletter&utm_medium=hiya&utm_term=03-Mar-15-v1&utm_campaign=deals&utm_content=5
or not?

AmazonAutorip service* lets you stream or download the MP3 version for free, of any music you've bought from Amazon at any time since 1999.

You can potentially recover more than a decade of forgotten music - from CDs you've lost, damaged or thrown away, and MP3s you downloaded that have since been wiped from your electronic devices.

Woebot
06-03-2015, 09:30 AM
There is a secondary aspect to (1) which I think Matt was getting at, which is to support a wider culture of music makers / shops / venues etc.

lots of us run an attractive trade on second-hand stuff these days.

a collector will sell her unwanted things (music/films) - or indeed things that she picks up and knowing she can make a profit on - on ebay or discogs etc etc

then they can either plough the profits into a collection or - like a number of my record-dealer friends - actually live on them.

droid
27-03-2015, 12:14 PM
...


Discogs scalpers buy up new records to resell them for high sums on the secondary market. We interviewed sellers, labels, and shop owners to see who’s to blame.

http://www.electronicbeats.net/en/features/who-really-benefits-from-discogs-scalping/

Leo
05-04-2015, 06:12 PM
The Rise And Fall Of The Obscure Music Download Blog: A Roundtable
http://www.theawl.com/2012/11/the-rise-and-fall-of-obscure-music-blogs-a-roundtable

Pandiculate
24-04-2015, 10:07 PM
whatever happened to the shared dropbox folder that everyone was plonking music into for a bit? Got some great Vinyl rips that I've since long lost.

sufi
25-04-2015, 01:43 PM
whatever happened to the shared dropbox folder that everyone was plonking music into for a bit? Got some great Vinyl rips that I've since long lost.
http://www.dissensus.com/group.php?groupid=3 ?

Pandiculate
27-04-2015, 11:51 AM
http://www.dissensus.com/group.php?groupid=3 ?

That's the one, looking at my dropbox account it actually is still connected. the Folder is totally empty now though.

Still got my BBK Tropical Flac's though :D

Tracker would be a good way to do it going forward, I've got a raspberry pi running pretty much 24/7 seeding right now anyway so I'd be happy to seed as much as possible.