the disappearance of the black band

dominic

Beast of Burden
with reference to this

and this

and of course this (though, with embarrassment, i've yet to pick up the book)

isn't the disappearance of black bands the main reason for the lack of dialogue b/w white indie rock and black music over the past 20 years or so???

sly family stone -- p-funk -- slave -- the indisputable truth -- kool and the gang -- isley brothers

once this generation of black bands leaves the scene, circa 83/85, that's when the dialogue stops . . . .

hip hop took over the streets

as for hip hop's influence on "white" music, there have been . . . .

(1) developments in dance music like jungle narrowly, plus other exchanges broadly

(2) indie hip hop -- e.g., definitive jux -- and of course eminem

(3) some developments in indie rock proper, e.g., mbv's "soon" supposedly, or bands like cibo matto

but in the main, hip hop has had little influence on the development of indie rock

HOWEVER, might this not simply be because -- and it's so damn obvious -- indie rock is based around guitar, drums, bass, maybe keyboard and synths, and therefore its practitioners find it difficult to borrow from hip hop

so aren't the real questions these =

(1) WHY did black bands disappear? WHY the victory of hip hop over black funk and rock bands?

(2) Now that hip hop has gotten so stale, WHY haven't we seen a return of black bands into public consciousness?
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Wrt (1), I guess black bands were also usurped in Chicago and Detroit (and elsewhere?) by the rise of techno/house and the DJ/producer/auteur thing that went along with it. The rise of new technology will have changed the landscape somewhat, and presumably many black musicians who would otherwise have gone into bands were taken with samplers/MPCs etc etc etc and never looked back (tho' of course they sampled black bands such as the JBs and P-Funk to a huge degree, so that sound never really disappeared in one sense).

Is there any parallel to the way in which (at least to the casual observer) one-drop/roots reggae went out of fashion ion the wake of digital technology exploding in Jamaica, and has only come back to rival dancehall as the island's number one music in the last couple of years? There are of course many people here who could answer that question 100x better than me...
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
I think Wu Tang changed the very notion of what a band is, and indie bands have had a hard time adapting to the idea that a band can be a collective of individuals who only join together to form publicity movements for themselves.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
as for hip hop's influence on "white" music, there have been . . . .

(1) developments in dance music like jungle narrowly, plus other exchanges broadly

(2) indie hip hop -- e.g., definitive jux -- and of course eminem

(3) some developments in indie rock proper, e.g., mbv's "soon" supposedly, or bands like cibo matto

(4) Nu-metal!


(Ahem. I'll get me coat...)
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
with reference to this

and this

and of course this (though, with embarrassment, i've yet to pick up the book)

isn't the disappearance of black bands the main reason for the lack of dialogue b/w white indie rock and black music over the past 20 years or so???

sly family stone -- p-funk -- slave -- the indisputable truth -- kool and the gang -- isley brothers

once this generation of black bands leaves the scene, circa 83/85, that's when the dialogue stops . . . .

hip hop took over the streets

as for hip hop's influence on "white" music, there have been . . . .

(1) developments in dance music like jungle narrowly, plus other exchanges broadly

(2) indie hip hop -- e.g., definitive jux -- and of course eminem

(3) some developments in indie rock proper, e.g., mbv's "soon" supposedly, or bands like cibo matto

but in the main, hip hop has had little influence on the development of indie rock

HOWEVER, might this not simply be because -- and it's so damn obvious -- indie rock is based around guitar, drums, bass, maybe keyboard and synths, and therefore its practitioners find it difficult to borrow from hip hop

so aren't the real questions these =

(1) WHY did black bands disappear? WHY the victory of hip hop over black funk and rock bands?

(2) Now that hip hop has gotten so stale, WHY haven't we seen a return of black bands into public consciousness?


have we so soon forgotten fishbone?
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
I blame Living Color. They were horrible really weren't they - I reckon they just made it look like a really bad idea.

Not to mention Roachford.
 
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N

nomadologist

Guest
seriously, though, if you think about it, a lot of early proto-hip-hop and funk acts were much more like "crews" in the sense borderpolice mentions than they were like "bands"...think about parliament funkadelic, sun ra, sly and the family stone, etc. these were not static "band-like" entities in the same way rock had them...
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
seriously, though, if you think about it, a lot of early proto-hip-hop and funk acts were much more like "crews" in the sense borderpolice mentions than they were like "bands"...think about parliament funkadelic, sun ra, sly and the family stone, etc. these were not static "band-like" entities in the same way rock had them...

Yeah good point. The RZA just made it explicit.

It's also about touring costs and stuff, isn't it? People getting more savvy with regard making their own money, rather than sharing it with a band.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Yeah good point. The RZA just made it explicit.

It's also about touring costs and stuff, isn't it? People getting more savvy with regard making their own money, rather than sharing it with a band.

bingo. i think it may also have a little something to do with the whole ethos of these earlier forms of "black music"--the itinerant lifestyle, the artists' collective as a way a life etc.
 

psherburne

Well-known member
well, there is the Black Rock Coalition, which promotes African-American (i think it's predominantly american) *bands* playing more or less in the rock idiom; and i'm pretty sure there was a NYT or similar culture piece on the resurgence of black bands a few years ago.

then, of course, there's CMJ buzz band of the year, Black Kids; the twist of course is that they're playing "white," new-wave-laced indie rock. not necessarily related to the thread but jess harvell's <a href="http://idolator.com/tunes/you.ve-go...he-black-kids-hype-must-be-stopped-313517.php">An Idolator Real Talk Special Report: The Black Kids Hype Must Be Stopped</a> is kind of essential reading.
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
fishbone and bad brains fall into what we would now call "afro punk" -- see this primer -- to which we might now add bands as diverse as apollo heights, tv on the radio, blood sugar, slack republic, etc -- but these are bands that, however brilliant their music, operate "inside" indie music

what i'm talking about is the seemingly bottomless well of black bands in the 60s and 70s -- black rock, black soul, black funk -- obviously this is usa-centric -- not considering jamaica, brazil or elsewhere -- but the countless number of black bands that used to exist, and which the rise of hip hop seemingly eradicated

slave, kool and the gang, etc -- were the tip of an immense iceberg of influence

fishbone, tv on the radio -- exceptions operating within the world of indie rock
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
well, there is the Black Rock Coalition, which promotes African-American (i think it's predominantly american) *bands* playing more or less in the rock idiom; and i'm pretty sure there was a NYT or similar culture piece on the resurgence of black bands a few years ago.

then, of course, there's CMJ buzz band of the year, Black Kids; the twist of course is that they're playing "white," new-wave-laced indie rock. not necessarily related to the thread but jess harvell's <a href="http://idolator.com/tunes/you.ve-go...he-black-kids-hype-must-be-stopped-313517.php">An Idolator Real Talk Special Report: The Black Kids Hype Must Be Stopped</a> is kind of essential reading.

Harvell's piece sums up my feeling about basically all of music criticism and/or the critical establishment (even new media types) from 2000 onward. Lorded over by ("former") indie kids who hype utter mediocrity and invoke the names of universally acknowledged critically sound "influences" in order to instantly aesthetically legitimize the crap.

This point has been made by others more eloquently I'm sure.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
fishbone and bad brains fall into what we would now call "afro punk" -- see this primer -- to which we might now add bands as diverse as apollo heights, tv on the radio, blood sugar, slack republic, etc -- but these are bands that, however brilliant their music, operate "inside" indie music

what i'm talking about is the seemingly bottomless well of black bands in the 60s and 70s -- black rock, black soul, black funk -- obviously this is usa-centric -- not considering jamaica, brazil or elsewhere -- but the countless number of black bands that used to exist, and which the rise of hip hop seemingly eradicated

slave, kool and the gang, etc -- were the tip of an immense iceberg of influence

fishbone, tv on the radio -- exceptions operating within the world of indie rock

Hmm. Good point.

Could it be that the whole indie DIY aesthetic is unique to the upper middle class, so that when making music in "bands" lost cultural momentum, only the suburbanites with time and money (and nostalgia for this old music) could or wanted to make music like this?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
NME is the fucking worst. Every single week there's a new band who are here to "save rock'n'roll" by being endlessly jizzed over by frothing hacks comparing them to bands of the Sacred Indie Canon, viz The Smiths, The Fall, The Jam, etc. etc., and then promptly forgotten about. Load of toss.
 

cutups

Member
This is a good question, but i don't know the answer.

Probably the best exception to the rule is the Roots.
I kind of wonder why there aren't more bands that are directly inspired by them.
 
It's gutting isn't it?
I grew up on Earth Wind & Fire, Parliament etc, and also UK sould like Linx and Loose Ends and so on.
I guess the thing is, people try and make "what sells" so... now that hip hop and electronic RnB are big, it's a self-stoking thingummy where there's no successful black bands for young people to look up to or aspire to imitate... so they just make beats in an MPC and sing or rap.

I would love to see young people playing in a tight funky band.

The other thing is, it's a LOT of hard work to get really good. For a group of people to learn to play really funkily and together takes a lot more effort than either indie garagey guitar stuff or electronic production.

I know this just from spending a day trying to play rhythm guitar in time with a backing track and stay in the pocket.
 
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