do genre's have an epoch?

E

ether

Well-known member
do sounds or styles run there natural course, do they become redundant or reach a natural conclusion?

Is a sound realized through a collective of like minded people at a specific time, which makes it unique to that time and place, a kind of cultural realization, or restricted to a few pioneering individuals?

-been stewing on this one for a minute so sorry if it sounds a bit garbled.
 
slim jenkins

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
Except surfing tunes...and ones about doing The Twist...and Rockabilly...and Be-bop...jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny. I keep on thinking House is over but then glance at the listings in Time Out and see that it's still played in clubs...:rolleyes:
 
T

trouc

trouc
DJ PIMP said:
nothing really has a beginning or ending.
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Nah man, that's not true. I think any given genre's got a finite field to enact itself within. Sometimes that field gets filled up and so we get cultural artifacts (bluegrass, bebop), other times things just run out of steam (situational failures), and occasionally somebody finds a (temporary) way out (glitch, microhouse, etc). What's sortof disappointing to me is that with increased genre specialization the field of possibilities shrinks so you get micro-movements lasting for extremely short (historically speaking) timespans. I guess I'd be willing to take a little more redundancy in exchange for longer development trajectories. Maybe this is a problem with the way I listen to music though.
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Generally speaking styles emerge out of a zeitgeist but I don't think you can ever say that something becomes totally redundant - it may find further resonance and significance in another place or time. You get revivals and fads of all kinds, sometimes as temporary markers before something more contemporary has a chance to reflect cultural movements.
 
G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
trouc said:
Nah man, that's not true. I think any given genre's got a finite field to enact itself within. Sometimes that field gets filled up and so we get cultural artifacts (bluegrass, bebop), other times things just run out of steam (situational failures), and occasionally somebody finds a (temporary) way out (glitch, microhouse, etc). What's sortof disappointing to me is that with increased genre specialization the field of possibilities shrinks so you get micro-movements lasting for extremely short (historically speaking) timespans. I guess I'd be willing to take a little more redundancy in exchange for longer development trajectories. Maybe this is a problem with the way I listen to music though.
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This is interesting. In some senses though possibility is defined by three key factors: changes in technology, the discovery of previously untapped cultural "storehouses", and new forms of interconnections. Both of the first two appear to have drastically reduced their fecundity (ie- the shock of non-western musics appears to have been totally absorbed and technology is no longer opening up entirely new potentials in sound). In a sense the last 100 years could have been a time of unusually rapid cultural shifts within music, accelerated beyond the usual steady rate of progress by globalisation and vast shifts in music making technology. But there are limits to these accelerators and we appear to have reached them.
 
T

trouc

trouc
noel emits said:
Generally speaking styles emerge out of a zeitgeist but I don't think you can ever say that something becomes totally redundant - it may find further resonance and significance in another place or time. You get revivals and fads of all kinds, sometimes as temporary markers before something more contemporary has a chance to reflect cultural movements.
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Well, revivals minus some sort of innovation or transformation tend to fail, so in a sense you're talking about something new at that point.
 
G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
trouc said:
Nah man, that's not true. I think any given genre's got a finite field to enact itself within. Sometimes that field gets filled up and so we get cultural artifacts (bluegrass, bebop), other times things just run out of steam (situational failures), and occasionally somebody finds a (temporary) way out (glitch, microhouse, etc). What's sortof disappointing to me is that with increased genre specialization the field of possibilities shrinks so you get micro-movements lasting for extremely short (historically speaking) timespans. I guess I'd be willing to take a little more redundancy in exchange for longer development trajectories. Maybe this is a problem with the way I listen to music though.
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Also increasing generic specialization leads to a lack of new interconnections being made which will also result in stagnation.
 
T

trouc

trouc
gek-opel said:
This is interesting. In some senses though possibility is defined by three key factors: changes in technology, the discovery of previously untapped cultural "storehouses", and new forms of interconnections. Both of the first two appear to have drastically reduced their fecundity (ie- the shock of non-western musics appears to have been totally absorbed and technology is no longer opening up entirely new potentials in sound). In a sense the last 100 years could have been a time of unusually rapid cultural shifts within music, accelerated beyond the usual steady rate of progress by globalisation and vast shifts in music making technology. But there are limits to these accelerators and we appear to have reached them.
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I find this idea pretty depressing actually: music as finite, but it surely is

Anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we're not in for a new Wagnerism (intermedia)
 
G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
trouc said:
I find this idea pretty depressing actually: music as finite, but it surely is

Anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we're not in for a new Wagnerism (intermedia)
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Well yes that is the most despairing way of viewing it. Looking at the last 100 years as a time of unusually rapid progression in the same way as technological/lifestyle changes have been super-charged by the petro-economy. Its also a way to rationalize the fact that innovation has rapidly declined, but there are plenty of other equally convincing reasons too.
 
N

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
trouc said:
Well, revivals minus some sort of innovation or transformation tend to fail, so in a sense you're talking about something new at that point.
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Depends what you mean by fail, but yes that's why I say temporary. The styles still have a life of sorts.

I was thinking of something like Electro Clash as a revival of an 80s vibe that seemed to make sense to people at the time for various reasons. Then you get lots of records from that period, many of which weren't all that well known at the time getting fresh exposure. So it's about resonance. Same with the post-punk thing subsequently.

I'd say there wasn't much innovation in either of those cases but they reappeared as genres for a time. Things tending to happen over shorter and shorter time spans these days.

Also thinking about things like bluegrass or rockabilly fads in Japan. For whatever reason it means something to a group of people who may move on to make something of their own that fits their circumstances.
 
G

gek-opel

entered apprentice
noel emits said:
Depends what you mean by fail, but yes that's why I say temporary. The styles still have a life of sorts.

I was thinking of something like Electro Clash as a revival of an 80s vibe that seemed to make sense to people at the time for various reasons. Then you get lots of records from that period, many of which weren't all that well known at the time getting fresh exposure. So it's about resonance. Same with the post-punk thing subsequently.

I'd say there wasn't much innovation in either of those cases but they reappeared as genres for a time. Things tending to happen over shorter and shorter time spans these days.

Also thinking about things like bluegrass or rockabilly fads in Japan. For whatever reason it means something to a group of people who may move on to make something of their own that fits their circumstances.
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This is another example of "culturally stored potential energy"-- vital yet underutilised influences forgotten at the time are re-metabolised in lean times to provide short bursts of additional vitality. Great example of this is mutant disco/disco-punk... almost entirely swept under the carpet of pop music history then slowly rediscovered, and suddenly becoming a massively energising force for a few years...
 
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