What's Left? - How the left lost its way.

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
From Nick Cohen's brilliant new book:
It wasn't just the undoubted miseries and inequalities of wealth and power the liberal order brought with it that was being condemned by the [post-modern] theorists. The victories of the Enlightenment, the vote, welfare, bills of rights, the separation of church and state and the emancipation of women, homosexuals and blacks, which previous generations had fought and on occasion died to achieve, were now all treated as parts of 'the hegemonic' and included in condemnations of a monolithic world order that made no distinctions. The theorists could not and did not want to discriminate, because discrimination would force them to admit that not everything was rotten in their societies and some victories had been worth winning. In the past people who believed in total opposition would offer a revolutionary programme to overthrow the established order. With no revolutionary programme available, the theorists offered a quasi-satirical attack on the double standards of the democracies instead.
and;
As epistemic relativism infected leftish intellectual life, all the old universal criteria, including human rights, the search for the truth and the scientific method, became suspect instruments of elite oppression and Western cultural imperialism.
His point: the current lack of conviction in any ideal - amongst the contemporary left - is demonstrated by a cultural relativism which justifies/turns a blind eye to all manner of persecution and oppression in other parts of the world on the basis that 'they're not like us, they've got a different regime of truth, you can't apply the same standards'. The actions of totalitarian dictators and religous fundamentalists can seemingly be justified and if not supported then certainly understood as a response to this so-called hegemonic structure of liberal markets, intellectual freedom, democracy and human rights. So much then for the traditional leftist stand against fascism, instead we have a growing 'West-bashing' sentiment combined with a sad apathy to the suffering of peoples in other parts of the world - Darfur, Zimbabwe, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea etc etc. In effect its all the fault of the 'West' (government and business alike) and thus the response of the left is passivity and isolationism. What a sad reflection of the left today - self consumed and devoid of principle!
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Those dastardly relativists on the... left?

JEREMY PAXMAN:
So there is a distinctive British foreign policy. Does it have an ethical dimension still?

TONY BLAIR:
Of course it does, yeah.

JEREMY PAXMAN:
How then can you publicly endorse a country which bans political parties, bans trade unions and uses institutional torture?

TONY BLAIR:
The country being?

JEREMY PAXMAN:
Saudi Arabia? You called it a friend of the civilised world.

TONY BLAIR:
Yes, but it is also important to realise that if we want a secure progress in the Middle East, we should work with Saudi Arabia. I don't decide... Ethical foreign policy doesn't mean that you try to decide the government of every country of the world. You can't do that.

JEREMY PAXMAN:
You called it a friend of the civilised world.

TONY BLAIR:
It is. In my view, what it is doing in respect of the Middle East now...

JEREMY PAXMAN:
It chops people's arms off. It tortures people.

TONY BLAIR:
They have their culture, their way of life.
 

ChineseArithmetic

It is what it is
"The anti-rockism of the new left?"


I get the impression Nick Cohen is more like some ageing raveista still nursing grudges about an argument he had about the correct definition of 'balearic' back in '89.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
The anti-rockism of the new left?

Hmm... can't quite parse this, but seems interesting... Popism definitely had that air of contrarianism by people who know better trying to show how clever they are (at least in its worst manifestations); do you think that liberal imperialists like Hitchens and Cohen are playing a similar game?
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
Those dastardly relativists on the... left?

whats your point Gavin? that Tony Blair can't seperate from what is morally right and wrong? any regime that chops off peoples arms (to use Paxmans example) is surely to any on the political left (and for that matter any decent person) simply abhorant. agreed?
 

ChineseArithmetic

It is what it is
whats your point Gavin? that Tony Blair can't seperate from what is morally right and wrong? any regime that chops off peoples arms (to use Paxmans example) is surely to any on the political left (and for that matter any decent person) simply abhorant. agreed?

How about a regime that kills people in the electric chair?
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
whats your point Gavin? that Tony Blair can't seperate from what is morally right and wrong? any regime that chops off peoples arms (to use Paxmans example) is surely to any on the political left (and for that matter any decent person) simply abhorant. agreed?

Yes, it's abhorrent. Many things are.

My point is that this caricature of a nebbish, hypocritical leftist playing pomo games to justify his own prejudices (pathological hatred of The West) applies just as well to the imperialists.

I probably shouldn't indulge this obvious baiting, but how can anyone think that handing Iraq to thugs like Cheney is something we are REQUIRED to cheerlead for? That we've "lost our souls" otherwise? There are certainly problems with the left, otherwise these absurd arguments wouldn't get traction, but a lack of faith in Bush's violent oil grab is not one of them.
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
How about a regime that kills people in the electric chair?

how about it? indefensible IMO. however at least those executed in America for instance get a trial with judge and jury - somewhat different to the arbitrary torture and executions practiced elsewhere in the world.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
how about it? indefensible IMO. however at least those executed in America for instance get a trial with judge and jury - somewhat different to the arbitrary torture and executions practiced elsewhere in the world.

Yes, we should certainly praise and support unflinchingly this stunning achievement.

I like how you called it indefensible before defending it.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Hmm... can't quite parse this, but seems interesting... Popism definitely had that air of contrarianism by people who know better trying to show how clever they are (at least in its worst manifestations); do you think that liberal imperialists like Hitchens and Cohen are playing a similar game?
I was wondering if there was a comparison to be made between the anti-rockist position of relativism and 'the current lack of conviction in any ideal' BoShambles mentions. A paralising inability to take a stand - of course this has always been more of a problem for the left then for the right.

Not sure why or where Tony Blair comes into it as he's clearly is not on the left in any understandable sense - he's more of cynical poptimoportunist in that whatever his stated position is, he's really always going to go with what floats his boat / facilitates his agenda. Or perhaps that makes him the perfect exemplar of this syndrome.

OK- it's not such a great comparison, I was just musing on indicators of the general cultural stalemate.

It's interesting to me because although in theory something like 'anti-rockism' appears to make a good deal of sense, in practice of course I have strong opinions and preferences and absolutely feel that some things really are better than others.
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
Yes, we should certainly praise and support unflinchingly this stunning achievement.

I like how you called it indefensible before defending it.

no defence just simply a recognition of the difference (between standing trial with presumption of innocence until proven guilty against getting dragged out of bed one night, being tortured and then killed) which is apparent to surely everyone yourself included? i don't support the death penalty in any instance.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Not all poptimism/anti-rockism is bad really, some is quite thoughtful, but I don't get behind "evaluating music on its own merits" as valid criticism -- it's lazy, and you get contorted apologies for albums from Disney Channel characters from people who should know better. It's not a criticism that points to better music. One must have standards, eh BoShambles?

Anyway, I do see parallels, but I'm a tad hungover and the coffee hasn't kicked in.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
i don't support the death penalty in any instance.

Then why apologize for it with this harping on "trials and juries" as if that somehow ameliorated all the gross injustice of the death penalty, something both conceptually disgusting but also ABHORRENT in its administration through an incredibly unfair for-profit legal system?

Sounds like you've lost yer way, chap.
 
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noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Then why apologize for it with this harping on "trials and juries" as if that somehow ameliorated all the gross injustice of the death penalty, something both conceptually disgusting but also its ABHORRENT administration through an incredibly unfair for-profit legal system?

Sounds like you've lost yer way, chap.

The actions of totalitarian dictators and religous fundamentalists

Yeah, have to say these things may be closer to home than 'other parts of the world'. Calling criticism of injustice in your own backyard west-bashing is just as bad as excusing other regimes because it's 'their business'.
 
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Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
Then why apologize for it with this harping on "trials and juries" as if that somehow ameliorated all the gross injustice of the death penalty, something both conceptually disgusting but also its ABHORRENT administration through an incredibly unfair for-profit legal system?

Sounds like you've lost yer way, chap.

No lost my way at all.... don't like the death penalty in any guise full stop.

As a seperate issue i believe that every person should be entitled to fight their case (against whatever charge) through the judicial system from the startpoint of presumed innocence.

That some societies provide no such basis for the administration of law is wrong and should be righted. Furthermore that in some such societies torture and execuation are common punishment is wrong and should be righted. Its doubly wrong if you see what i mean...
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
That some societies provide no such basis for the administration of law is wrong and should be righted. Furthermore that in some such societies torture and execuation are common punishment is wrong and should be righted. Its doubly wrong if you see what i mean...

And by "should be righted" you of course mean "should be invaded." Because that's why countries are invaded: to right wrongs, just like your grandpa told you in his stories about "The Good War." Because wars typically lead to greater justice and safety, at least if the good guys win.

And what are these magical anarchist societies without law?
 

Mr BoShambles

jambiguous
And by "should be righted" you of course mean "should be invaded." Because that's why countries are invaded: to right wrongs, just like your grandpa told you in his stories about "The Good War." Because wars typically lead to greater justice and safety, at least if the good guys win.

And what are these magical anarchist societies without law?

There's nothing 'magical' about them. Yes all societies have laws but how they are administered - in terms of judicial process - varies enormously. I'm sure Amnesty have some information about this which I'll dig up later. Suffice it to say right now that the application of law is far more arbitrary in some places than others which i'm sure you can recognise.

gotta go out now but this is interesting... more later.
 
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Gavin

booty bass intellectual
gotta go out now but this is interesting...

At least one of us is getting something out of this.

The Boondocks episode "A Date With The Health Inspector" is a much more potent allegory for the Iraq War (and the justice system!) than some appropriated Amensty stats....

And for your interest in law and order, you should remember that the Iraq invasion was a gross breach of international law.
 
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