the concept of "cheesy"

what does it mean when people say something sounds "cheesy"? what are the definitions of the word? (applied to music obviously)

one of the qualities it refers to is expression of "genuine" feeling. for instance a R'n'B love song can be seen by some to be "cheesy". I'm sure loads of kids think Louis Armstrong's sweet, sweet ballads are "cheesy". i don't, at all. when i hear his voice i feel it straight, without any irony what so ever. but I do think Celion Dion is cheesy.

but why is "genuine feeling" considered cheesy? ever? is it because "bad" (as in not good) artists have cheapened it? too much indulgent, unreflexive, "fake" heart tugging, tear jerking; so that even when faced with "real" emotional content we think it's cheesy?

at times it has something to do with cultural age, like Louis Armstrong. or Marvyn Gaye or Bryan Ferry or Leonard Cohen, or, for that matter, Franz Schubert. so maybe a kind of expression i guess becomes so over used and loaded that many of the younger generations can no longer take it seriously. unless they really give it a chance, and "enter" the work; after which they see the substance and are able to overcome the initial "cheesy" feeling -- i like Bryan Ferry now, but when my ex first played him i thought it was the cheesiest 80s pop ever.

also something to do with personal age: seems that when i was younger i thought a lot of things were cheesy, like jazz for instance. so as time goes on less things sound cheesy to me, and I'm able to appreciate more things on deeper levels -- same for you or no?

what is the relationship of "cheesy" to irony? a friend remarked once that what makes "great" pop music "great" is that no matter how familiar it is, when it comes on at a club, all the irony just evaporates and people respond to it straight. he cited "billy Jean" as an example.

another quality is "kitsch", "cheap" or "common place" or "generic". and here I'm thinking of hand-bag house. but it's more than these descriptors... can't really put my finger on it. what makes cheesy house cheesy and Luomo's "Vocal City" not cheesy? is it about "depth"? or subtle layers which are more than meets the eye? or maybe Luomo IS cheesy (definitely the later albums), but Vocal City is more than that. maybe it plays with the idea of kitsch, but ultimately have another aim. I still often have a hard time with diva vocals, in house, in garage, in niche, in jungle. sorry but it makes my skin crawl.

and "cheesy" often does not translate cross cultural lines. for instance a kizomba track came on, no not the overly sweet cheap kind, one that has real depth of feeling for me, and my German friend said that it is very cheesy. i think black culture has a very different concept of cheesy than white culture. i don't think black people at R'n'B clubs think it's cheesy at all -- it is very real emotion to them, while to many whites it sounds cheesy. and of course many examples of the reverse... somehow can't think of any at the moment though...

i'm thinking about "cheesy" in relation to an "inability to feel or empathize", which may be increasing in our culture? I mean many expressions of "genuine feeling" in music just sounds fucking horribly cheesy these days. does it not? Jack Johnson. Elliott Smith. just fucking shoot me. now, please. but it doesn't to all those indie kids. very strange. so is it increasingly more difficult to express real feelings without sounding cheesy? compared to, say, 1962? (random year, have no example in mind)

anyhow, i need to think more about it... though really don't know if any of this meandering shit is of any interest outside of my own mind, outside of this hour. maybe tomorrow i will ask a mod to delete this post.

DJ PIMP said:

Celine Dion... DIE SATAN DIE DIE DIE

I can't think of anyone who has ever given me such a strong physical reaction. I only have to see a video and my stomach clenches, my mouth becomes weirdly clammy and I commence grinding my teeth, a volcano like hostility building in my chest.

She is nightmarishly horrible.

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one of the first gigs i played ever almost 10 years ago now i did a Dion/Merzbow mash-up as prelude to Panacea type Dark-Step. and later i also mashed Britney and Boredoms... (to an almost empty theater space) not sure if it worked entirely or if my intention came across.

was very weirded out by that MIA interview where she was talking about hanging out with Timbaland, and him being all "into Celion Dion now". that has to be a joke. right? right????

like what people are saying. doom/nomos: is it possible though that something is indeed "so awesome because it's so cheesy"? where the only merit is an ironic laugh for pure kicks.

Edward said:

genuine emotion is never cheesy, fake emotion is always cheesy.

reality=lush, fakeness=pimping

minnie ripperton, a bit out of tune but so warm and human = not cheesy
any pop r&b singer singing 24 different notes up n down around the melody because she has the ability to do it but not imparting any feeling= cheese

i think using obvious signifiers instead of trying to express YOURSELF is cheesy.
so there are certain rock ballad chords that say "moody" but aren't really, certain techno sounds or snare fills that say "uplifting" but aren't really.... doing music by numbers, to a template, within a genre is cheesy.

originality, emotion, striving for self-expression: not cheesy

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i like these definitions.

mms said:

I like alot of that kind of disco stuff etc as it's people trying to have a good time, when it's a little difficult to have a good time.

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nice. i likely will use this without giving credit sometime in the next month.

mms said:

I don't understand people who laugh at pop.

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this is just juvenile - people stuck in their "alternative" = "cool" phase. which is, pardon the stupid-speak but is appropriate here, SO FUCKING GAY. there are 2 songs off of Justin Timberlake's last one that i would drop pretty much any time without irony. fuck what the poseurs think.

bnek said:

personally i take much more offence when the music i like is dismissed as 'easy listening'/elevator music/music that plays in a hotel lobby etc.

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anecdote: one of my favorite things to do in the office, when i used to work at design firms, is put on the quietest, most subtle, barely there lower-case improvisation at a reasonable or even kinda high volumes. but the music is just little hums and tiny scrapes and buzzing or whatever. i don't think anyone ever took notice even though to me it's audible from even half way across the room! used to derive massive satisfaction from this. yes i'm a geek i know.

oh and other good examples of cultural differences: most westerners or uninitiates probably find most Bhangra or Soca or High-Life cheesy. i know i did before i got into it. just didn't get it, and not emotionally mature enough to handle the JOY THE REAL JUMP UP AND DOWN HAPPY PARTY FUCKING JOY.

mms said:

quite often when i've done that it's so barely audible it gets turned off!

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no no you don't TELL them you are putting something on! sorry i should have specified... it's about sabotaging public space in a subconscious way

mistersloane said:

I think it's often about things that are influenced by musicals as well - certainly in Dion's case - and nowadays all that - 'old-fashioned' - musical, Rogers and Hammerstein, Andrew Lloyd Webber type expressions - and I think there are certain key changes involved, certain singing styles - are very much out of favour amongst a certain social class, and very much IN favour when you get beyond a certain echelon of society. Y'know, Las Vegas is seen as cheesy, but it's also the ultimate accolade to be asked to play there.

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that's a whole other can of worms... but yeah i've always wondered about gays and musicals, what's the deal? i mean the only women who like musicals are older housewives. why do fit young men in their prime often share musical enthusiasm with fat, over the hill ladies? it's about "camp", right? something else i doubt i'll ever understand, much less acquire a taste for. i wish i could remember the author of that essay about camp vs. irony... or i should just have a sit down with john waters, i bet he could clear things up for me nicely.