"rap and hip-hop"

nomos

Administrator
That phrase has been bugging me for two decades now. What the hell is it supposed to mean? It seems that it's usually uttered by people who aren't 100% certain about either term so they say both just to be safe, and not in a "well, rapping is one of the 5 [or how ever many there are now] elements of hip-hop" kind of way. The implication is that there's some sort of stylistic difference between the two. And people have been saying it for a long time so it predates any argument you might make about the glossy commercial stuff as "rap" and more trad stuff as "hip-hop." Or have I been missing something all of this time?
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
That phrase has been bugging me for two decades now. What the hell is it supposed to mean? It seems that it's usually uttered by people who aren't 100% certain about either term so they say both just to be safe, and not in a "well, rapping is one of the 5 [or how ever many there are now] elements of hip-hop" kind of way. The implication is that there's some sort of stylistic difference between the two. And people have been saying it for a long time so it predates any argument you might make about the glossy commercial stuff as "rap" and more trad stuff as "hip-hop." Or have I been missing something all of this time?

Rap is something you do, hip hop is something you live ;)

Nah,, the terms are pretty much interchangeable in my book


Over to PD
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
i think you already know the answer here, nomos. you've pretty much outlined it already. the terms, in a general sense are rarely not one and the same. there's usually very little difference in what people mean when they say rap or hip-hop and most attempts to delineate the two are wrong in the strictest sense. not always, though. sometimes this is a very deliberate strategy.
for example, purists will often say that hip-hop is the whole culture that the four elements produce in combination and that rapping is only one of those things. they'll also refer to stuff like d4l, hurricane chris, soulja boy etc as rap because "it has nothing to do with hip-hop"; the word rap in this sense functioning as a kind of distancing, derisive term (still, the fact that these artists have little to do with real rapping, either, is a stickier point..)
interesting stuff about the number of elements, too. actually the most interesting thing about the initial post. it's true, they have shifted and changed a lot. for example, production is definitely one these days, extending far beyond the role of dj, which it has to all intents and purposes superseded, and in a completely different way aesthetically, practically, functionally etc. after all, scratch djing is little more than an anachronistic spectator sport that bears little relation to contemporary hip-hop culture now...
i guess the only way you can subdivide rap and hip-hop in any meaningful way, not a cluless one, is by saying that a record can be hip-hop without being rap. take something like the, errr... i dunno... say endtroducing, just for the sake of argument. it's definitely *hip-hop* but not *rap*, same for any hip-hop instrumental album or, at least as far as i'm concerned, any contemporary R&B record - production and aesthetic absolutely hip-hop, very little or even zero actual rapping. conversely, something like grime (mixed biscuits beat me to the punch on this point, but my post is longer and thus better, so i'm leaving it in!), baile funk, kuduro, whatever the hell diplo's getting sweaty about this week generally features rapping, but is not necessarily hip-hop.
 
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nomos

Administrator
@ gumdrops

yeah yeah i know that but that's not what people are getting at when you hear someone refer to "rap and hip-hop" on CNN or read it in a mainstream paper or whatever.

they're saying "you will hear rap and hip hop" as if they were two separate kinds of music. and i don't know what distinction they think they're making, or if they're even sure at all but just saying both terms to make sure they've got it all covered.
 

gumdrops

Well-known member
nomos;125945they're saying "you will hear rap and hip hop" as if they were two separate kinds of music. and i don't know what distinction they think they're making said:
those people are just dumb though and have no clue about what they speak of. so allow them ;)
 

nomos

Administrator
i think you already know the answer here, nomos.
well i thought so but i honestly wondered if somehow it had slipped by me or if there was a clear cut differentiation operating in wider pop culture.

agreed on the entroducing example. i do find that i'll refer to something like 50 cent as rap but the music that's more earnestly inkeeping with new york traditions as hip-hop.

the elements thing i've always found a bit funny only because of the way it so self-consciously emerged during the old school revival that kicked off around 1992. there's certainly some revisionism in the structuring of it and the way that the number of elements gets expanded and contracted to serve different perspectives. interesting too to note that the early graf artists saw themselves as quite independent of hip-hop. they overlapped but graf was by no means under hip-hop's umbrella until later.
 

tom pr

Well-known member
i remember when metallic falcons said they made soft metal a couple of years ago, i thought it was a cool turn of phrase. now I know the roots!
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
sometimes you get three for the price of one
http://www.discogs.com/release/349367

You can give this a more charitable explanation:

'rapping in the house' = people reciting poetry rhythmically over house music, which is basically treated as a ready-made backing track

'hip-hop in the house' = the backing track, which is fundamentally housey, is (also) changed as it takes on some of the influences of the backing in hip-hop
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
conversely, something like grime (mixed biscuits beat me to the punch on this point, but my post is longer and thus better, so i'm leaving it in!), baile funk, kuduro, whatever the hell diplo's getting sweaty about this week generally features rapping, but is not necessarily hip-hop.

I dunno, I don't think you can really parse any of these genres without seeing them as indigenized hip hop aesthetics. There are plenty of kuduro/baile funk/bongoflava/etc. tracks without rapping as well! I use "hip hop" to describe this stuff, although sometimes use "rap" to make the distinction between glossy commersh stuff and the "trad" stuff, since I tend to prefer the former.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
perfect! i see the same label has a 'soft metal' compilation as well :cool:
That looks pretty solidly classic, although I think 'Precious Metal' might just have the edge. But who the heck are / were Wasch!? !

;)


Oh yes, you can have hip-hop without rap and rap without hip-hop. That always makes me think of Blondie and Adam & The Ants.
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
Yeah, they can be different parts of speech.

Grime MCs rap on their records, but would one call grime 'hip-hop'?

It might be interesting to point out that a lot of grime artists insist that they aren't "rapping" on tracks, but that they are "MCing". JME on Practice Hours 1 went so far as to say that even if he spits over a rap beat, he's still not making rap, because he's not rapping.

How confusing. Rap is rap to me; I don't really understand this hip hop/rap division, or the point of it. In America they rap over hip hop, in the UK they rap over grime, in J.A. they rap over dancehall.

*shrug*

Plus wasn't Young Jeezy getting all vexed last year when he went on that radio show about how Nas was saying hip hop was dead? He seems to think he is hip hop still, and I guess that means there must be others that do too.
 

Poisonous Dart

Lone Swordsman
Here I am.

Rap is something you do, hip hop is something you live ;)

Nah,, the terms are pretty much interchangeable in my book


Over to PD


Rap and Hip Hop are NOT one and the same. There are as difficult to discern their individual usage as words in the English language that sound alike but are spelled different and have completely different meanings to someone trying to learn English as a second (or third or fourth) language. Here it is in a nutshell.

Rapping is the ACT of rapping whether it's being done badly, accapella or over a beat. If you are not an emcee then attempting to spit a freestyle or a prewritten rhyme (written by whomever) is referred to as rapping regardless of if you are a contributor or fan of Hip Hop culture/Rap music or not.

Grime emcees aren't "rapping" per se because Grime isn't Hip Hop. This means they are neither "Rappers" or emcees in the "Hip Hop" definition. There are emcees in the "Grime" definition and the aesthetics of the flow and delivery and beats are all different. They AREN'T "rapping" they are "emceeing" in the Grime sense. Confused?

"Hip Hop" involves actually being a fan of/lover of/contributor to the worldwide culture of Hip Hop. If I was to spit a rhyme I'd be "rapping" and "emceeing" in the Hip Hop definition. If Lindsay Lohan spit a rhyme in one of her songs then she's just rapping because she sure as hell ain't an emcee or a Hip Hopper.

Does that work for everyone?

One.
 
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hucks

Your Message Here
Grime emcees are rapping per se because Grime isn't Hip Hop. This means they are neither "Rappers" or emcees in the "Hip Hop" definition. There are emcees in the "Grime" definition and the aesthetics of the flow and delivery and beats are all different. They AREN'T "rapping" they are "emceeing" in the Grime sense. Confused?

Yeah. Are they rapping or aren't they?
 
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mms

sometimes
i'm equally clueless about these various "elements"...can someone enlighten me?

djing breakdancing or bboying mcing graffiti that's only 4 really.
alll a bit silly really and the people who tend to take this to heart tend to work in trainer shops.
 
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