soundproofing

hmm - posted this on another site but im not sure its going to get any reply - i know you guys are pretty on it regarding music, but does anybody know anything about acoustics/sound attenuation - which materials to use etc....

spiel below]


ive been looking around a bit into room acoustics and soundproofing as im an architecture student currently designing a music academy. the site is by a busy road and the building facade (the one facing the road - which will deal with the traffic noise) is currently projected to be responsive - that is, the facade alters according to the ambient acoustic environment as well as the internal sound generated. thats the fun part - the difficult bit is trying to get this to work.

so far - i've been thinking along the lines of an inflatable/expandable cell with some sort of translucent/clear sound barrier on either side. the facade would be a sandwich of MLV > Expandable Air Cavity> MLV again on the other side.

my question is whether this idea is a) completely ridiculous in terms of its effectiveness at absorbing traffic noise (i know low frequency rumble is a problem) but also whether increasing the air cavity by inflating the cell has any impact on sound proofing - ie. does a bigger air cavity equal a reduction in sound transmission?


ive also looked around for other types of "expandable" sound insulation - but havent really had much luck - im not sure if this concept will hold yet.


im willing to sketch/scan/upload basic facade sections if anyone's interested in seeing them.




thanks for any input - its been doing my head in
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Not something I know about but might be worth checking speakerplans.org - home of many a soundsystem nerd.
 

hint

party record with a siren
I'm no expert, but I've always understood that you need mass to cut low frequencies such as traffic rumble. There's not much mass in air.

There is a Studio Construction / Acoustics forum over at Gearslutz:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-construction-acoustics

I'm sure you'll find some good info on sound isolation there, but I expect most will recommend a thick concrete wall or two, which doesn't fit with your plans.

I know that there are some interesting products out there, such as sound reduction glue (!), but this wouldn't look so hot on your translucent wall.

http://www.greengluecompany.com (seem to be some useful articles on their site too)
 

Gabba Flamenco Crossover

High Sierra Skullfuck
Acoustics are a difficult thing to do a crash course in - you start hitting the nasty maths pretty quickly. I have friends who have done masters degrees in this stuff.

There's a lot of bumf on the net about acoustics, a lot of it is of questionable use and needs to be read with skepticism. Because the theory is so heavy, a lot of people have a trial-and-error approach to acoustics. Sometimes this gets good results, sometimes it doesn't, but it's usually hard to tell just from a net writeup. Amateurs also have a tendancy to mix up sound isolation with acoustic treatment, which is a different thing altogether (although obviously a lot of the concepts can be transferred between the two).

Here's my 10c for what it's worth - this is from someone with an engineering background and a strong interest in sound recording, but no specific training in acoustics. Make of it what you will.

The ultimate sound isolation barrier is a vacuum, which no sound of any frequency can travel through because there's nothing there to oscillate in sympathy with the soundwaves (you've probably heard that before...). But obviously this is difficult to do in practice. So most realistic sound isolation techniques are about working with materials to reduce the amount of sound transmitted from the source to the target. This breaks down into two areas - dissipation and decoupling.

HF audio frequencies travel through air with reasonable ease, but lose energy rapidly in heavier media such as water, and solid barriers (even when not designed with isolation in mind) will usually knock them out completely. If you look at a spectral plot of most real world sounds you'll see that HF waveforms contain a puny amount of energy. So HF sound isolation is all about dissipation - it's relatively easy to achieve on a budget, you just need something thick and heavy. You can tell from walking round your house that even duff stud partition walls will attenuate anything above about 300Hz and a good brick wall will probably bring that down to under 100Hz.

LF frequencies are much harder - partly because the bigger wavelength brings things like standing waves into play, but mostly because they just contain a huge amount of energy compared to HF. You need a lot of very dense material to dissipate that energy, so most LF isolation techniques rely on a mix of dissipation and decoupling. At the top end, people build complete floating rooms, where an inner room is suspended inside an outer shell on acoustic isolators (which act like shock absorbers). LF isolation involves using lots of neoprene and similar materials to make sure surfaces aren't rigidly connected to one another. People can also build resonators if they're having problems with specific frequencies - devices that oscillate in sympathy with incoming sound waves, which sucks energy out of them and stops it being transmitted onto the target.

If I was brainstorming on your idea of a reactive sound isolation surface, I'd look at maybe floating the room itself on neoprene, and decoupling it from the road via a rigid outer wall connected to the room via fluid dampers - you could then alter the damping co-efficient by changing fluid pressure. Or put two big plates of glass in and pump out the air between them. If you really want to make your head hurt you can look at control theory, which is all about system frequency response, damping factors, etc.

Here's some useful links:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb98/articles/soundproofing.html

http://www.studiooutfitters.com/isolation_tut.html

http://www.sota.ca/stc_info.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan01/articles/readerzone.htm
 
If I was brainstorming on your idea of a reactive sound isolation surface, I'd look at maybe floating the room itself on neoprene, and decoupling it from the road via a rigid outer wall connected to the room via fluid dampers - you could then alter the damping co-efficient by changing fluid pressure. Or put two big plates of glass in and pump out the air between them. If you really want to make your head hurt you can look at control theory, which is all about system frequency response, damping factors, etc.




great! i was looking for a new perspective on the problem - thanks for the feedback

for what its worth - this design is never going to have to stand up to real industrial scrutiny - its never going to get built - but obviously ive got great interest in seeing something which is at least theoretically feasible/workable being implemented in the design - not least because it is probably going to be the subject of a technical dissertation.

i'll have a look at what you guys are saying - but yeah, im trying to avoid the heavy mass route in favour of something more delicate.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Would there be some way to do a kind of noise canceling thing? Turn the whole wall surface into a giant speaker that responds by playing a phase-inverted version of the ambient sound environment. Perhaps some kind of movable reflective sheet metal covering of the outer wall that is moved by a large speaker driver or hydraulic system attached to a microphone. The large moving reflective surface in itself would look pretty cool.
 
Would there be some way to do a kind of noise canceling thing? Turn the whole wall surface into a giant speaker that responds by playing a phase-inverted version of the ambient sound environment. Perhaps some kind of movable reflective sheet metal covering of the outer wall that is moved by a large speaker driver or hydraulic system attached to a microphone. The large moving reflective surface in itself would look pretty cool.

is this how noise cancelling works...?

interesting idea - i'll look into it

seriously - im no audio expert so my initial idea was what i was pushing forwards, but its great to have some other input

thanks very much
 
hmm from wikipedia noise cancelling

Protection of a 3-dimension zone requires many microphones and speakers, making it less cost-effective. Each of the speakers tends to interfere with nearby speakers, reducing the system's overall performance. Noise reduction is more easily achieved with a single listener remaining stationary in a three-dimensional space but if there are multiple listeners or if the single listener moves throughout the space then the noise reduction challenge is made much more difficult. High frequency waves are difficult to reduce in three dimensions due to their relatively short audio wavelength in air. Sinusoidal noise at approximately 1000 Hz is double the distance of the average person's left ear to the right ear; such a noise coming directly from the front will be easily reduced by an active system but coming from the side will tend to cancel at one ear while being reinforced at the other, making the noise louder, not softer. High frequency sounds above 1000 Hz tend to cancel and reinforce unpredictably from many directions. In sum, the most effective noise reduction in three dimensions involves low frequency sounds. Commercial applications of 3-D noise reduction include the protection of aircraft cabins and car interiors, but in these situations, protection is mainly limited to the cancellation of repetitive (or periodic) noise such as engine-, propeller- or rotor-induced noise.


maybe used in combination with an inflating barrier to block out high end and mid range frequencies this might work.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Well yes it would obviously be extremely tricky. But in a way you are not dealing with three dimensions if you are just trying to block the sound from outside one wall, it's just a plane. If it could be made to respond quickly to sound waves impacting the wall they should never get inside the room.
 

ether

Well-known member
I have an extremely limited knowledge of acoustics but having worked in loads of recording studios and been in a few mastering rooms, it seem most modern recording recording studios are constructed so as too, isolate the sound within the room by building a room within a room so theres a cavity to reduce the amount of sound entering and escaping the space, creating a controlled space where reflection and resonances particular to the dimensions of the space can be dispersed using diffusion (panels of shaped foam) or controlling the resonances (bass traps etc.)

theres some stuff floating around on the net about absorption co-efficients, and what materials best absorb frequencies and at what densities.

thats all i know.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
LF frequencies are much harder - partly because the bigger wavelength brings things like standing waves into play, but mostly because they just contain a huge amount of energy compared to HF.

That's interesting, I'd have thought higher frequencies would have more energy. I guess that's on the assumption you have equal amplitude over all frequencies (a flat power spectrum), but maybe LFs are generally made, in music at any rate, at much bigger amplitudes than HFs?
 
lower frequencies have huge wavelengths and are much harder to stop

ive been digging around an old acoustics book and i think ive come up with a workable solution (at least in theory)



traffic noise - in its low frequency form is mostly inaudible and is usually felt through vibrations. in this case - mass wont do anything to stop the rumbling and decoupling of the structure is what's needed.

outlne of impact sound transmission re traffic noise





proof that the mass law must be taken into account with coupled walls and slabs - or the results become innacurate




in that book it also goes on to say that the air cavity in a cavity wall should ideally be as large as possible in order to achieve maximum attenuation

so - my suggestion is to decouple the rooms requiring isolation from the supporting structure to reduce traffic impact sound transmission (either on fluid dampers as mentioned above, or on some sort of rubber or springs)

this then combined with the expandable sound isolation system (which should sort out higher and mid range frequencies by a mass loaded vinyl > expandable air cavity > mass loaded vinyl sandwich) would seem to deal with the vast majority of sound being generated.

just to clarify - this isnt a spec for a top notch recording facility, just a music production studio, and as such it doesnt need to completely sound tight.


ive also had an idea regarding an adjustable volume setting for the room. if the room was made to contract (the roof would descend powered by an inflatable air pocket) this would alter the acoustics of the room, making the sound generated inside seem louder and in effect cancelling some of the outside noise that still gets through whilst at the same time also increasing the sound proofing of the roof level.


the problems with this to me so far seem to be;

a) mass loaded vinyl (based on my crude calculations and best information on the internet) seems to be only available at about a sixth of the density of conrete. if concrete is 2300kg/metre cubed, mlv is only about 330kg/metre cubed - im not sure if its possible to get a denser vinyl system - currently this is what im counting on

b)air in the air cavity might not be the best sound attenuator - from this table here

fog and smoke both attenuate sound better than air - (with air's optimum humidity for attenuation being about 0.3-0.4%)

im wondering if there's denser gases (which are stable) that could be used to inflate the expandable system and so provide a better level of attenuation - any suggestions? (coloured gases could also be quite nice - aesthetically speaking)


this is more or less where im at - at the moment

i think the next step will be an actual sound survey of the site (deptford creek) so here's hoping i can blag a sound meter off uni - to see whether the traffic is actually that bad - i also have some scope of re-siting the building further away from the road.

thanks for all your suggestions so far
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Carbon dioxide's heavier than air, I think. (Edit: about 50% denser, apparently.) Colourless, obviously, and also odourless, so you'd need to make sure it didn't escape, otherwise there could be an asphyxiation hazard.

Edit edit: wouldn't it be AWESOME if there was an odourless, colourless and harmless gas that was denser than water? You could mix in a bit of oxygen so people could breathe it, and then fill a room with it and you'd be able to float around just under the ceiling. Cool.
 
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Carbon dioxide's heavier than air, I think. (Edit: about 50% denser, apparently.) Colourless, obviously, and also odourless, so you'd need to make sure it didn't escape, otherwise there could be an asphyxiation hazard.

Edit edit: wouldn't it be AWESOME if there was an odourless, colourless and harmless gas that was denser than water? You could mix in a bit of oxygen so people could breathe it, and then fill a room with it and you'd be able to float around just under the ceiling. Cool.

lol that might fuck your innards!!
 
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