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noel emits
02-06-2008, 06:22 PM
Has everyone in the UK actually gone blade wielding bonkers or has the mysterious media zeitgeist decided that knife crime is this months theme?

Mr. Tea
02-06-2008, 08:43 PM
It's important not to ignore the possibility that we're hearing more about stabbings in the press because more stabbings are actually happening. The fact that so many victims and perpetrators are very young has helped increase the media-sensation aspect of it too, though.

Also, I can't help but think there's a terrible irony in the stabbing of that anti-gun campaigner. Moral of the story: try and avoid being a grandma at 33.

noel emits
02-06-2008, 08:49 PM
There was a discussion on Radio 4 a few days ago that I half payed attention to. Someone (a medic I think) was saying that for most purposes knives don't need to have sharp points and that this is what causes the majority of serious injuries, which is a pretty good erm, point. Of course to counter that someone else was then quoted as saying this was all well and good but that legislating against pointy knives would unfairly penalise law abiding fish lovers. Hmm.

noel emits
02-06-2008, 09:09 PM
It's important not to ignore the possibility that we're hearing more about stabbings in the press because more stabbings are actually happening.
Of course, but it's very very sudden. In terms of reporting it's not a trend, it's a spike (yes, I know). And you get this with various memes from time to time. I think to an extent it's a question of focus. News outlets must only pass on a tiny amount of what they are presented with, it's a selective filtering process.

Also, I can't help but think there's a terrible irony in the stabbing of that anti-gun campaigner. Moral of the story: try and avoid being a grandma at 33.
And they've arrested her grandson. Maybe there is a link though, success in tackling the availability of guns means more knives?

Mr. Tea
02-06-2008, 09:53 PM
Of course, but it's very very sudden. In terms of reporting it's not a trend, it's a spike (yes, I know). And you get this with various memes from time to time. I think to an extent it's a question of focus. News outlets must only pass on a tiny amount of what they are presented with, it's a selective filtering process.


Yes, and I appreciate that, but last year the number of under-18s murdered in London was up more than 50% on 2006, and this year looks to be going the same way. With the best will in the world, this cannot be blamed on 'media frenzy' - either those kids died or they didn't, right? It's a question of hard figures as much as it is of reportage.



And they've arrested her grandson. Maybe there is a link though, success in tackling the availability of guns means more knives?

And if, by some miracle, the Govt. succeeds in getting guns and knives off the street, then what? Kids going at each other with apple corers, corkscrews, things-for-getting-stones-out-horses'-hooves, Queen Mum souvenir letter openers? It doesn't bear thinking about!

noel emits
02-06-2008, 10:08 PM
Yes, and I appreciate that, but last year the number of under-18s murdered in London was up more than 50% on 2006, and this year looks to be going the same way.
Right. so that's actual figures? That's the question I'm asking. So the answer is yes, everyone in the UK has gone blade wielding bonkaz.

Some people are really touchy. You don't generally hear too much about the back story to these events or the reasons for attacks but I wonder how much of it has to do with perceived 'offense'? I don't think it's unrelated to the cultural environment that can produce things like legislation against mocking religions or whatever.

Mr. Tea
02-06-2008, 10:29 PM
Yes, I think there has been a real increase in the absolute number of cases of this sort, and it's quite frustrating to talk to people who seem to think the wicked meedja are basically inventing murder stories.

Your point about how little is said about why these incidents happen in the first place is well made, but I mentioned somewhere on here the other day an interesting trend in the past few years of bereaved mothers interviewed in the press declining to take the standard "innocent angel with so much to give" line and instead admitting that their kid was often in trouble - just nothing like the kind of trouble that morally justifies a death sentence, of course.
Then again, there are also kids who aren't involved in gangs in any way and happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - trying to break up a fight, inadvertently 'disrespecting' some coked-up gangtsa wannabe prick, or whatever.

noel emits
02-06-2008, 10:47 PM
it's quite frustrating to talk to people who seem to think the wicked meedja are basically inventing murder stories
I think there are such things as news fads. Certain themes get trendy for a while, it's hard to fathom exactly why mostly but I think it's interesting to chart it.

Is that the same as suggesting that some evil cartel is inventing stories?

A lot of things happen in a city each day and most of them do not make the national news, that means that there is a lot of scope for filtration. Editors will inevitably be guided by the prevailing political / cultural climate. What was important one season may not warrant a mention the next. There's no suggestion of nefarious action.

ripley
02-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Yes, I think there has been a real increase in the absolute number of cases of this sort, and it's quite frustrating to talk to people who seem to think the wicked meedja are basically inventing murder stories.


It is equally frustrating to talk to people who seem to think that, out of the millions of events that occur each day, what appears in news articles is somehow naturally more important or relevant than what did not make it into print.

Mr. Tea
02-06-2008, 11:31 PM
It is equally frustrating to talk to people who seem to think that, out of the millions of events that occur each day, what appears in news articles is somehow naturally more important or relevant than what did not make it into print.

Your point being? There's a reason I don't get into the national papers when I cut myself shaving, whereas a 16-year-old being stabbed to death in a suburban street does. Some things ARE more important than others. I'd have thought this was pretty self-evident to anyone more than, ooh, a day or so old.

mms
02-06-2008, 11:42 PM
I think there are such things as news fads. Certain themes get trendy for a while, it's hard to fathom exactly why mostly but I think it's interesting to chart it.

Is that the same as suggesting that some evil cartel is inventing stories?

A lot of things happen in a city each day and most of them do not make the national news, that means that there is a lot of scope for filtration. Editors will inevitably be guided by the prevailing political / cultural climate. What was important one season may not warrant a mention the next. There's no suggestion of nefarious action.

i think it's the number of kids getting killed, teens, and the massive growth, the uk media are obsessed in a really schizo way with kids, alot of whether they're angels or villains depends on class, (read promise in some cases )
one of the oddest phenomenon recently has been maddie the lost ( dead) girl who had a working class cargo cult style copyist, who thought that if they did everything that maddie's parents did in the gaze of the media they could make some good money, it was a pretty primitive scheme but it also underpinned and undermined the whole theatre of the British press and how unforgiving it is, the fact that the copy cat family saw the whole maddie episode as a potential access to money and fame but had no chance being taken seriously from the off.
You get the same polarising weirdness, between 'gang related' and 'promise,' 'angels', etc all these words and terms used to note whether a life lost was a terrible tragedy or a product of bad parenting, drugs, gangs etc... which is an easy way again to get off the hook......hoodies....hoodies are just ghosts, the media's spectral presence on the streets of Britain, a deathly image in non descript garb to absorb and reflect the ills of society.

noel emits
02-06-2008, 11:57 PM
The results are inconclusive but I think it is probably best to avoid Farnborough for the time being (Google Trends on 'stabbed' for the UK in the last 12 months):

http://www.google.com/trends?q=stabbing&ctab=0&geo=GB&geor=all&date=ytd&sort=0

Actually a lot (most?) of these stories do not involve teenagers or children at all (BBC News search on 'stabbed'):

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=stabbed&x=0&y=0&scope=all&tab=ns&recipe=all

reeltoreel
03-06-2008, 12:00 AM
Your point being? There's a reason I don't get into the national papers when I cut myself shaving, whereas a 16-year-old being stabbed to death in a suburban street does. Some things ARE more important than others. I'd have thought this was pretty self-evident to anyone more than, ooh, a day or so old.


Well, yes. But it's also pretty self-evident to anyone who's looked at the way the news media work that some stories are made to be more important than others for reasons other than, say, the 'public good'. The possibility of news fads, or certain issues being given more prominence than the bald facts would warrant, is there.

Mr. Tea
03-06-2008, 12:14 AM
Well, yes. But it's also pretty self-evident to anyone who's looked at the way the news media work that some stories are made to be more important than others for reasons other than, say, the 'public good'. The possibility of news fads, or certain issues being given more prominence than the bald facts would warrant, is there.

Yes, and I appreciate this - The Maddie Thing being the ultimate case-in-point, of course. But people sometimes seem so eager to show how aware they are of this tendency that they over-compensate and sound like they're denying objective facts. I mean, yes, the coverage given to any given teenage murder (for example) varies a lot, but when a report comes out saying "There have been X killings this year compared to Y last year", there's not quite so much room for debate.

noel emits
03-06-2008, 12:55 AM
Everything in a news report has been selected from a larger set of events and given a certain priority. For the sake of 'objectivity' I'd say it's important to recognise that, constantly. It's not a matter of being 'eager' to demonstrate media awareness. By definition we do not know about that which we are not (made) aware of (unknown unknowns).

This is probably stretching rationalism too far for some rationalists but all most of us can really say about these events and statistics is that we have read or heard what someone else has to say about them. I can say with a good amount of certainty that there appears to have been a recent increase in the amount of news stories about stabbings but beyond that I don't have direct or complete knowledge of what everyone is up to all the time. Hey, maybe that's why some people want to know what everyone is up to all the time? ;) So I have to take these stats on faith essentially. Is that what 'objective facts' means?

But let's be clear, in starting this thread I was asking a question. When I say 'mysterious media zeitgeist' that's pretty much exactly what I mean. It's not code for 'evil cabal of satanic nazi peadophile conspirators'. I think the question is worth asking and the trend, actual or media, is worth considering.

noel emits
03-06-2008, 01:13 AM
Here's a case in point. A bouncer was stabbed outside a club in Brighton last week. As far as I know this did not make the national press but you can bet that if garage/grime was high on the agenda as it has been at other times then it would have been more widely reported.

http://theargus.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2298534.mostcommented.concorde_2_b ouncer_stabbed_in_back.php

ripley
03-06-2008, 07:18 AM
Your point being? There's a reason I don't get into the national papers when I cut myself shaving, whereas a 16-year-old being stabbed to death in a suburban street does. Some things ARE more important than others. I'd have thought this was pretty self-evident to anyone more than, ooh, a day or so old.

Well you see, Mr. Tea. England (just as an example), is a pretty big country. there are a lot of people living in it. millions, even. In any population of millions it is statistically likely that there are going to be a large number of crimes. more, for example, than any one newspaper could report. I'll give you some examples:

according to the Home Office, there were over 17,000 recorded "serious wounding or other acts endangering life" in England in 2005-2006. ( According to the definition, that includes stabbing, and I bet there were more than one or two who were 16 years old, just based in statistical likelihood. )

Advocacy orgs in England suggest around 100,000 kids go missing every year.

According to crimestatisticsorg.uk (the Home Office website), in 2005/2006 over 13,000 rapes were recorded offenses in England.

so, those numbers mean that it would be a bit difficult for any one newspaper to report on each crime individually. this means there must be some method of sorting it out. You suggest "importance" is the method they use.

possibly all the newspapers have a highly sophisticated "importance-ranking-system" which categorizes the importance of each person and crime based on totally objective factors that have nothing to do with race, class, gender, or other social category, nothing to do with the world view of the editors and reporters, nothing to do with the interests of the advertisers who fund the newspapers (and who their markets are). If that is the case, then the most important crimes are identified through this objective, socially neutral process and then an article is written about it. voila.

Or on the other hand, maybe it's totally obvious which of the seventeen thousand serious woundings really matters and any fool would know it was that one that occured in that one place with that kid, and all the other ones are really unimportant serious woundings whom we don't care about for some obvious reason.

or maybe, just maybe, the interests of advertisers, the world view of reporters and editors, their conscious and unconscious biases, and even just their network of social contacts, shaped by their life experience in various ways, affects how they pick and choose which of those tens of thousands of crimes get reported...

luka
03-06-2008, 09:23 AM
im not convinced ripley and gavin are human beings, they;re just random academese generators... feed in a question and they will give you the approved answer....
its so predictable...
and then you're supposed to be all like 'wow, i never thought of it that way before, well, except when i was in 6th form and my teachers were telling me about it'

mms
03-06-2008, 09:32 AM
Here's a case in point. A bouncer was stabbed outside a club in Brighton last week. As far as I know this did not make the national press but you can bet that if garage/grime was high on the agenda as it has been at other times then it would have been more widely reported.

http://theargus.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2298534.mostcommented.concorde_2_b ouncer_stabbed_in_back.php

no it probably wouldn't - it would have been picked up by this board more easily though.
Different thing.

i think a massive growth in the number of kids dying from knife wounds - which is what most people and news stories across all the press are concerned about is certainly something that it's worth reporting and bringing up in papers as it's a terrible terrible thing.

noel emits
03-06-2008, 09:46 AM
im not convinced ripley and gavin are human beings, they;re just random academese generators...
Heh. I think ripley is bang on with that post, it's very clear.

no it probably wouldn't - it would have been picked up by this board more easily though.
Different thing.
You think it wouldn't have got national attention? I think there have been moments where 'garage music' was the big media bugbear though. Just as an example of how focus works.

i think a massive growth in the number of kids dying from knife wounds - which is what most people and news stories across all the press are concerned about is certainly something that it's worth reporting and bringing up in papers as it's a terrible terrible thing.
Yes it's bad. But I ask the question because it seems to me there's more knife action in the news than just to do with kids. It's a more general trend. I think you're right in your other post, it's a bit of both - real things happening and also media fixation.

So OK, we accept that there are verifiable figures about more kids dying from knife wounds. Has anyone got a link to a report? And of course the important questions to ask then is 'why?' Has violence itself got worse, more brutal?

Also there were a lot of knives around when I was at school (80s) so excuse me if I don't immediately see this as some shocking new trend.

luka
03-06-2008, 09:57 AM
im dont have any issue wit its clarity... its how predictable it is... these people don't seem to have an original idea in their heads...everything is the approved version....

droid
03-06-2008, 10:20 AM
im dont have any issue wit its clarity... its how predictable it is... these people don't seem to have an original idea in their heads...everything is the approved version....

If we're going by the standards of predictable responses, you're barely convincing as a real person either Luka!

Insert a statement that any Sun reader might find to be overly analytical, politically correct, or even a smidgen lefty or intellectual and you spew vague invective (always careful not to argue against the substance of the post of course) like some reactionary Pavlov's dog...

crackerjack
03-06-2008, 10:27 AM
one of the oddest phenomenon recently has been maddie the lost ( dead) girl who had a working class cargo cult style copyist, who thought that if they did everything that maddie's parents did in the gaze of the media they could make some good money,

cough alllegedly cough

droid
03-06-2008, 10:29 AM
BTW, Id suggest that anyone interested in how the media 'ranks' news and selects stories should read Nick Davies' 'Flat Earth News', for an insiders (non-academic/non-lefty) view of how commercial pressures have affected the production of news in the UK - including the astounding fact that over 80% of all news stories in UK papers come either from Wire services or PR press releases...


An award-winning reporter exposes falsehood, distortion and propaganda in the global media

"Finally I was forced to admit that I work in a corrupted profession." When award-winning journalist Nick Davies decided to break Fleet Street's unwritten rule by investigating his own colleagues, he found that the business of truth had been slowly subverted by the mass production of ignorance.

Working with a network of off-the-record sources, Davies uncovered the story of the prestigious Sunday newspaper which allowed the CIA and MI6 to plant fiction in its columns; the daily newsroom where senior reporters casually refer to 'nig nogs' and where executives routinely reject stories about black people; the respected quality paper which was so desperate for scoops that it hired a conman to set up a front company to entrap senior political figures. He found papers supporting law and order while paying cash bribes to bent detectives and hiring private investigators to steal information.

Davies names names and exposes the national news stories which turn out to be pseudo events manufactured by the PR industry and the global news stories which prove to be fiction generated by a new machinery of international propaganda.

He shows the impact of this on a world where media consumers believe a mass of stories which, in truth, are as false as the idea that the Earth is flat - from the millennium bug to the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, tainting government policy, perverting popular belief.

He presents a new model for understanding news. With the help of researchers from Cardiff University, who ran a ground-breaking analysis of the contents and sources for our daily news, Davies found most reporters most of the time are not allowed to dig up stories or check their facts - a profession corrupted at the core.

http://www.flatearthnews.net/

luka
03-06-2008, 10:46 AM
shut up droid you mug

droid
03-06-2008, 10:48 AM
shut up droid you mug

LOL...

Nuff said. :)

luka
03-06-2008, 10:49 AM
oops a little intemperate...
really though drioud, behave yourself....

matt b
03-06-2008, 10:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n-UGQcG3Jw

luka
03-06-2008, 10:52 AM
i am left wing anyway, just cos im mates with oliver craner, doesn't mean im a fasist like him you know... i just find ripley and gavin boring....you can't tell me seriously they're not boring cos you knwo they are. they always just read out of textbooks... who doesn't know the media are selctive, i mean, for christs sake....

luka
03-06-2008, 10:53 AM
stuart lee is not one bit funny... smug twat....

noel emits
03-06-2008, 10:53 AM
cough alllegedly cough
I didn't follow this story after a certain point. As I understood it their scheme, allegedly, was to try and extract money from the 'Maddie fund'. What happened next, apart from the Police arresting everyone within half a mile of the whole business.

matt b
03-06-2008, 10:53 AM
i am left wing anyway, just cos im mates with oliver craner, doesn't mean im a fasist like him you know... i just find ripley and gavin boring....you can't tell me seriously they're not boring cos you knwo they are. they always just read out of textbooks... who doesn't know the media are selctive, i mean, for christs sake....

unfortunately luka, mr tea seems to struggle with the idea a little ;)

luka
03-06-2008, 10:54 AM
hes one of those people whove read about 5 books and then think they're clever

matt b
03-06-2008, 10:55 AM
hes one of those people whove read about 5 books and then think they're clever

i bet they're really big books though

luka
03-06-2008, 10:56 AM
stewart lee that is, not mr tea/....

matt b
03-06-2008, 10:57 AM
I didn't follow this story after a certain point. As I understood it their scheme, allegedly, was to try and extract money from the 'Maddie fund'. What happened next, apart from the Police arresting everyone within half a mile of the whole business.

i believe, the application to the maddie fund was later on and led to the police arrests. i've got friends who work in dewsbury, and the whole saga is very sad and murky. much like the place itself.

matt b
03-06-2008, 11:00 AM
stewart lee that is, not mr tea/....

my statement still stands regardless.

mr lee can be pompous at times, but he's still an excellent 'comedian'. for a book reader.

droid
03-06-2008, 11:00 AM
i am left wing anyway, just cos im mates with oliver craner, doesn't mean im a fasist like him you know... i just find ripley and gavin boring....you can't tell me seriously they're not boring cos you knwo they are. they always just read out of textbooks... who doesn't know the media are selctive, i mean, for christs sake....

A few Dissensus posters by the look of things...

Thats quite a Zizekian position you've taken there Luka. Criticising leftists for responding to arguments with positions you think are boring and obvious because you agree with them... :D

luka
03-06-2008, 11:10 AM
yeah so what, its true! imagine on a music thread... it'd be like saying,
has anyone ever noticed how public enemy sound angry and they're music is really noisy and unmusical, quite thrilling isn't it.
or, has anyone ever notcied how prince somtimes sings like a girl

(first time i've been accused of being zizekian though...)

john eden
03-06-2008, 11:21 AM
There was a piece on the news the other week about the popularity of fencing lessons in a community centre in Tower Hamlets, which I thought was interesting.

On the surface it seemed a bit mental, but I assume it works in the same way as martial arts - kids learn fighting skills but they also learn focus and (fiddles with monocle) discipline.

UFO over easy
03-06-2008, 11:25 AM
yeah so what, its true! imagine on a music thread... it'd be like saying,
has anyone ever noticed how public enemy sound angry and they're music is really noisy and unmusical, quite thrilling isn't it.


not really, you give people too much credit

to most people news is not the news until it's in the news. or something along those lines. and that's a fairly reasonable a position to take as well, assuming reporters are doing their jobs well.

luka
03-06-2008, 11:40 AM
well i dunno, lets see... is there anyone here who thought journalists produce the news in a wholly objective manner based on what we the people most need to know?

droid
03-06-2008, 11:59 AM
No, but if you've been reading this thread you'll notice that there are people who think that new is somehow prioritised by 'importance', and will argue the point.

Everyone should read that Nick Davies' book. Even I was shocked by how low standards have dropped. Most news today is basically whatever can be cobbled together in 5 minutes from press releases, wire services and other newspapers. There is virtually no fact checking or original investigation anymore.

Of course its a truism that you 'cant believe anything you read in the papers', but despite that, many of us (including myself) do on occasion.

UFO over easy
03-06-2008, 12:10 PM
well i dunno, lets see... is there anyone here who thought journalists produce the news in a wholly objective manner based on what we the people most need to know?

do you think we represent an accurate cross section of the uk?

luka
03-06-2008, 12:25 PM
certainly not, but given this is where the debate is taking place its hardly relevant is it?

luka
03-06-2008, 12:38 PM
No, but if you've been reading this thread you'll notice that there are people who think that new is somehow prioritised by 'importance', and will argue the point.

and as for this, well droid, i don't wish to put words in tea's mouth, but i will anyway.
mr teas has assigned himself/has been assigned a particular role here at dissensus and as with all roles, the script writes itself to a significant degree. which is one of the problems with dissensus and with communication in general....
its also the reason why, when on dissensus, i very rarely write in coherent sentences or say anything i actually think or belive....

luka
03-06-2008, 12:39 PM
i am, after all, the village idiot....

droid
03-06-2008, 12:46 PM
mr teas has assigned himself/has been assigned a particular role here at dissensus and as with all roles, the script writes itself to a significant degree. which is one of the problems with dissensus and with communication in general....its also the reason why, when on dissensus, i very rarely write in coherent sentences or say anything i actually think or belive.......

...i am, after all, the village idiot....

You're getting a bit deep there now Luka.

Next you know you'll be breaking into solemn stanzas. ;)

UFO over easy
03-06-2008, 12:47 PM
certainly not, but given this is where the debate is taking place its hardly relevant is it?

of course it is, we're talking about something that affects everyone.

noel emits
03-06-2008, 12:49 PM
the script writes itself to a significant degree. which is one of the problems with dissensus and with communication in general....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5egaR4WvLPY

luka
03-06-2008, 12:57 PM
You're getting a bit deep there now Luka.

Next you know you'll be breaking into solemn stanzas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5egaR4WvLPY

well, thats the point i was making, you get boxed into these roles... and now you're far more comfortbale with me being the village idiot, which is fine, cos i'm more comfortable with it too... you like it cos it makes you feel cleverer than me, and i like it cos it makes me feel more clever than you....

UFO over easy
03-06-2008, 01:03 PM
:(

droid
03-06-2008, 01:04 PM
well, thats the point i was making, you get boxed into these roles... and now you're far more comfortbale with me being the village idiot, which is fine, cos i'm more comfortable with it too... you like it cos it makes you feel cleverer than me, and i like it cos it makes me feel more clever than you....

Sorry fella, thats not gonna fly. You've let far too much slip in the past. You've got form. (and I know the intentional irony of my last comment wasn't lost on you).

I prefer it when people make an effort not to act like twats on forums, regardless of the limitations of their self assigned roles.

luka
03-06-2008, 01:07 PM
be specific... what are you talking about? when we both got banned?

when have i acted like a twat?

to be honest, i prefer people acting like twats than being boring and pompous...

droid
03-06-2008, 01:13 PM
be specific... what are you talking about? when we both got banned?

I'm saying you have form of not acting like an idiot. Forgive me if I don't search through the archives, but I'm sure its happened at least once...


when have i acted like a twat?

to be honest, i prefer people acting like twats than being boring and pompous...

What - you expect me to count every incident? :p

Didn't this digression start as a result of you admitting that your role on Dissensus was 'The Village Idiot'?

This is all getting a bit weird now.

luka
03-06-2008, 01:15 PM
what? you were being nice?

luka
03-06-2008, 01:16 PM
i thought you were calling me a twat?
i was ready for a bit of biff////

luka
03-06-2008, 01:18 PM
i better go to bed....
i will never post on dissensus without my customary spelling mistakes and boorish inanities again....

luka
03-06-2008, 01:18 PM
ashley coles gay, he sticks mobile phones up his arse

droid
03-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Yowch - you nearly got your bit of biff before those hasty edits.

You're not the only one who can be confusingly ambiguous ya know! :)

Im also truly heartbroken to hear that Ive never made you laugh. :o

noel emits
03-06-2008, 01:28 PM
About roles:

I think the suggestion, and I don't know if it was aimed at me, it's not what I was saying so I assume it wasn't, but the suggestion that bringing up the topic of possible media selectivity, in this case nothing more sinister than trends and focus, is equivalent to claiming there to be an evil conspiracy that invents news stories, although as it turns out this may not be so far from the truth, is not only revealing of attitudes around this issue, but is also by implication an attempt, conscious or otherwise, to prematurely cast anyone who talks about it in the role of 'naive conspiracy buff', or whatever, without taking the trouble to actually consider what is being said. Maybe Mr. Tea does hang around with a lot of annoying conspiracy buffs though.

Leslie Nielsen carries around a fart-bag to derail expectations and ascribed roles. This is preferable to and probably more effective than using a knife in most situations, in my opinion.

Mr. Tea
03-06-2008, 03:05 PM
unfortunately luka, mr tea seems to struggle with the idea a little ;)

Arrgh, for fuck's the sake, what is this? "The media are selective, ergo you have to disregard them completely", or something? Of course the amount of coverage given to each case varies, and any discussion of the causes of this kind of crime and what, if anything, can be done about it is strictly for the comments and analysis pages. But I'm talking about the actual statistics behind all these, the simple numbers themselves.

I mentioned actual figures earlier, and the first Google result for 'teen killings london statistics' is this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2007/12/11/kurt_teen_murders_feature.shtml , from that notorious organ of Murdochian tabloid propaganda, the BBC.

matt b
03-06-2008, 03:42 PM
calm down, there's a ;) at the end of that sentence.

and please don't attempt to turn me into some sort of conspiracy nut.

i'm not denying there's an issue, simply that we are going through a process of media moral panic, which means the issue gets blown out of proportion; young people are percieved as deviant, leading to an increase in perceptions regarding alienation, which makes solutions even more difficult

Mr. Tea
03-06-2008, 04:03 PM
It's not really got anything to do with 'conspiracy theories' as such, at least as I would use the term. It's more just a case of people being (rightly, of course) wary or openly critical of the spin put on news stories or the way stories are assigned a certain implicit priority, but then going so far as to seemingly question whether or not the thing being reported has even happened at all.

With this teen-on-teen violence, I'd certainly agree that there has been a media frenzy, and that news stories of this sort, on a story-by-story basis, seem to be getting more coverage than they were a few years ago. But another reason there's more coverage is because more cases are happening.

One other thing that's probably worth asking is: do we really want to live in a society where kids stabbing and shooting each other to death is not considered newsworthy?

noel emits
03-06-2008, 04:15 PM
That's all totally fair, except no-one has done anything like this:

going so far as to seemingly question whether or not the thing being reported has even happened at all.
It's a matter of proportion as you say. I think in the case of teenage murders it probably is quite readily quantifiable* but you do get spurts where large sections of the news media become unduly preoccupied with one issue or another, be it drugs, terrorists, sex attackers, financial scandals or whatever. It's faddism largely but the herd mentality is also exploited by PRs and spinmeisters. They'd be fools not to take advantage.

* although it is never a good idea to underestimate how many ways a pie chart can be sliced.

Mr. Tea
03-06-2008, 04:28 PM
That's all totally fair, except no-one has done anything like this:


Well, maybe not in this thread, but (without wishing to rehash old arguments) it's pretty much what I've seen one or two other people write on here in the last year or so.

woops
03-06-2008, 04:59 PM
but needs more toccowich obviously.

lol at all this.

I'm off to Politics to start a thread called 'bourgeoisie "don't understand breeding"'

Mr. Tea
03-06-2008, 05:11 PM
but needs more toccowich obviously.


Yes, he is the king of conspiracy theories, hands down.



lol at all this.


Heheh, dead kids. Lol!

mms
03-06-2008, 07:44 PM
That's all totally fair, except no-one has done anything like this:

It's a matter of proportion as you say. I think in the case of teenage murders it probably is quite readily quantifiable* but you do get spurts where large sections of the news media become unduly preoccupied with one issue or another, be it drugs, terrorists, sex attackers, financial scandals or whatever. It's faddism largely but the herd mentality is also exploited by PRs and spinmeisters. They'd be fools not to take advantage.

* although it is never a good idea to underestimate how many ways a pie chart can be sliced.

but would you agree that the massive growth of teenage kids being stabbed to death by other teenage kids n the last two years is a terrible thing though?

rather than a media frenzy?

noel emits
03-06-2008, 07:58 PM
No I think it's a wonderful thing.

Far too many of the little blighters if you ask me.

But perhaps sending them off to Canada would be more humane.

noel emits
03-06-2008, 08:08 PM
What a question. Of course it's bad.

But I'm usually not there when these things are happening. All I actually know about a reported event is what I hear on the radio or read on news.bbc. So I was asking a question - often media coverage of hot topics is disproportionate and misleading, as we've established many times over on this here thread.

I think this is an honest position. Let's see the figures. OK so the last two years are bad and apparently we all know it's 'rough being a kid these days'. What is the actual magnitude of this problem? 26 teenagers were murdered in London in 2007. OK obviously 26 terrible tragedies / wastes of life / bleeding heart / platitudes in case the self-righteous get a bit funny. OK, how many were murdered in London in 2004? 1989? 1975? Can we compare these figures to the other needless deaths of people due to neglect / abuse / corruption / pollution / war / poverty / ignorance etc. Who decides that 'oh, we must think about the babies', Marvin bloody Gaye? Sod that, I'll decide what I think is tragic. I don't like to see people eating lambs, I think that's really preying on the young but I'm not writing fucking newspaper articles about it. Oh yeah of course, we're only supposed to worry about humans cos otherwise you're being disloyal to the team or something.

If you're talking about the thread title, well that's to get attention and to make it interesting, a standard media practice even amongst serious news services. Don't get up on high horses about how this is such a serious issue. It's taking things too seriously that causes people to stab others in the first place. This is just a discussion board.

Mr. Tea
03-06-2008, 10:19 PM
Sod that, I'll decide what I think is tragic. I don't like to see people eating lambs, I think that's really preying on the young but I'm not writing fucking newspaper articles about it.

*puts on Devil's Advocate hat*

Why not? If it's that tragic to you why aren't you trying to do something to stop it? Seems a bit cowardly to just be quietly outraged about it.

*takes off hat*

And in all seriousness, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with humans beings placing a higher value on human beings than on other animals. Call me 'speciesist' if you like...

Edit: please bear with me a second, I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it here, promise...


It's taking things too seriously that causes people to stab others in the first place.

I'm not sure about this. I think the fact that a lot of kids are so ready to stab each other over the slightest thing is a symptom of them failing to take life - and, concomitantly, death - anything like seriously enough.

noel emits
03-06-2008, 11:05 PM
Why not? If it's that tragic to you why aren't you trying to do something to stop it? Seems a bit cowardly to just be quietly outraged about it.
I don't think it's tragic so much as I think it's cruel and unnecessary to breed these animals and then slaughter them shortly after they are born. But that's just my view, I'm not a fascist about attitudes towards it and although I might occasionally mention it gently to someone in conversation, mostly I just try and live by my own standards. People definitely do not respond well to being harangued about their eating habits. But the main reason I don't write articles about not eating lambs is that I don't consider doing that to be my role. ;)

And in all seriousness, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with humans beings placing a higher value on human beings than on other animals. Call me 'speciesist' if you like...
No, I don't think it's surprising or wrong either, the point is that what you choose to focus on as your pet TERRIBLY BAD THING, is variable. There's all sorts of horrible stuff happening all the time, who gets to decide what's worst and how you should feel about it?

There are elements of the same old self-righteous / delicious outrage / morbid~sentimental / cheap thrills about this and the Great British Public's moral / emotional / very-grown-up-concern pressure points are targeted so well each time. Oh yeah I forgot, kids stabbing each other is actually happening. If the trend continues like this something like 30 teenagers could be murdered this year on the streets of London, someone call Ralph Mctell. Am I being unduly irreverend about a VERY SOLEMN TOPIC?

I'm not sure about this. I think the fact that a lot of kids are so ready to stab each other over the slightest thing is a symptom of them failing to take life - and, concomitantly, death - anything like seriously enough.
Yeah, I don't know. This is complex. That would certainly be a very interesting psychological phenomenon if it were the case. Mass sociopathy? Shall we blame GTA Vice City or Vietnamese weed growers? I do think though that there is a link to the 'culture of offense'. I think people often underestimate how influenced children are by the attitudes demonstrated by those they even subconsciously see as being their elders. Tribal values - our leaders are violent, so our children are violent. Religious leaders start saying, chat about us and you'll get arrested or bombed.... See where it leads?

luka
04-06-2008, 09:36 AM
i approve of noel emits....

Mr. Tea
04-06-2008, 02:22 PM
As a wise man on another message board once said to me, "(The existance of things worse or more serious than issue X) ≠ (a reason not to care about X)". So you don't have to stop caring about lambs because kids are knifing each other, or vice-versa.

[Edit: unintentional lol at 'lambs/kids'...]

noel emits
04-06-2008, 03:13 PM
(available column inches / attention span) - other concerns < ∞

Mr. Tea
04-06-2008, 03:19 PM
Shit, I feel like I've opened a right old can o' worms here. This is getting altogether too Lacanian by half...

Edit: well Noel, you were asking for numbers:



Metropolitan Police figures show that the number of victims of knife crime have gone down. In the year to March 2008, there were 10,220 such crimes, compared to 12,124 for the previous year - a reduction of 15.7&#37;.

But the number of knife victims aged between 11 and 18 increased by 4.5% between April and July 2005 and in the same period in 2006.

Last year 27 teenagers in London met violent deaths, compared with 17 in 2006 and 15 in 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7436141.stm

So it's not that more people are being stabbed: it's that more kids are being stabbed. Seems to be the youth of both victims and perpetrators that's grabbing the headlines at the moment.
I read somewhere that analysts are blaming the falling age of people getting involved in this kind of violence on the success of Operation Trident a few years back, which took so many 'proper' criminals off the streets that a power vacuum formed, which has subsequently been filled by their sons, nephews and younger brothers.

mms
05-06-2008, 11:35 PM
I read somewhere that analysts are blaming the falling age of people getting involved in this kind of violence on the success of Operation Trident a few years back, which took so many 'proper' criminals off the streets that a power vacuum formed, which has subsequently been filled by their sons, nephews and younger brothers.

oh dear yes you have!
do you know where you read that - it's an interesting idea but it seems to me to be a one of those ideas that suggests there is a criminal fraternity, that is a natural unchanging element of society who are to blame for everything! :)

Mr. Tea
06-06-2008, 12:01 AM
oh dear yes you have!
do you know where you read that - it's an interesting idea but it seems to me to be a one of those ideas that suggests there is a criminal fraternity, that is a natural unchanging element of society who are to blame for everything! :)

Well it's probably not too much of a stretch of plausibly to suggest that they're to blame for crime, is it?

I can't remember where I read it, probably on the BBC News website since as a rule I don't really have time for papers these days - sounds pathetic, but there you go. Of course I still end up leafing through the free dross that litters every square foot of London, it's almost impossible not too - but it certainly wasn't in one of those.

noel emits
06-06-2008, 12:14 AM
So it's not that more people are being stabbed: it's that more kids are being stabbed.
Yeah but maybe that's because there's more kids. j/k

I read somewhere that analysts are blaming the falling age of people getting involved in this kind of violence on the success of Operation Trident a few years back, which took so many 'proper' criminals off the streets that a power vacuum formed, which has subsequently been filled by their sons, nephews and younger brothers.
I think I said something up thread about how less guns might mean more knives, with knives being used more readily because the perception is that they are not so deadly, but of course they are.

I don't think the idea of a 'power vacuum' implies a resident criminal fraternity. It's more that there's a certain amount of space and if you take someone off the streets who is involved in criminal activity then someone else, probably a younger person, is going to jostle for that place. Makes sense. Not sure about the family bit though.

ripley
06-06-2008, 02:19 AM
It's not really got anything to do with 'conspiracy theories' as such, at least as I would use the term. It's more just a case of people being (rightly, of course) wary or openly critical of the spin put on news stories or the way stories are assigned a certain implicit priority, but then going so far as to seemingly question whether or not the thing being reported has even happened at all.


You were the one who said you "didn't get my point" about being wary of the media, about which you now say "rightly of course" we should be wary or critical.

It's a bit rich to BE the straw man, and then say that the other side is as straw man.

and as for the rest of it, well as is often the case (boringly one might say), parroting sexism and elitism seems likely to get a pass as "interesting" or rebellious, but pointing out those talking points and attitudes is boring etc. To each his own I guess. for a change, next you can point out when I'm taking things too personally when gender issues come up! :D

mistersloane
06-06-2008, 08:40 AM
oh dear yes you have!
do you know where you read that - it's an interesting idea but it seems to me to be a one of those ideas that suggests there is a criminal fraternity, that is a natural unchanging element of society who are to blame for everything! :)

It was a quote from the Pastor of Stockwell after Billy Cox was shot in Clapham North.

bassnation
06-06-2008, 12:04 PM
Of course, but it's very very sudden. In terms of reporting it's not a trend, it's a spike (yes, I know). And you get this with various memes from time to time. I think to an extent it's a question of focus. News outlets must only pass on a tiny amount of what they are presented with, it's a selective filtering process.

on the contrary, most stabbings go unreported - non-fatal that is. there is an increased focus, and damn right too. this is not a media mirage or folk demon thing. it deserves to be front page news (as opposed to "uk mans holiday ruined by germans in hotel" as i saw on the front page of the sun the other week). everyone i've spoken to, right or left supports the airport style scanners on public transport, even if i don't care for the sniffer dogs much.

noel emits
06-06-2008, 12:47 PM
on the contrary, most stabbings go unreported - non-fatal that is. there is an increased focus
I realise a lot goes unreported. That might have been mentioned here once or twice.

'Increased focus'. Yeah, I think that was discussed as well. :p

Another thing about knives v. guns: knives are quieter, you're usually going to be more reluctant to fire off a gun because it will immediately attract a lot of attention.

Mr. Tea
06-06-2008, 01:47 PM
You were the one who said you "didn't get my point" about being wary of the media, about which you now say "rightly of course" we should be wary or critical.

It's a bit rich to BE the straw man, and then say that the other side is as straw man.


Well hang on, I think you're confusing two things here: as I said before, I'm certainly not denying that there is always going to be a bias of some kind (not necessarily even a deliberate one) in how news is reported, and even what news is reported. That's a bit different from saying that the amount of media attention some event receives is wholly arbitrary or simply an artefact of the prejudices or pet interests of the editors. You talk about the thousands of stabbings that happen every year without making the front page: I put it to you that a fatal stabbing is more important, more newsworthy, than a non-fatal one. And murders do generally make the front page of papers and the evening news. Yes, a given knife murder happening today might get more media attention than it would have a couple of years ago, but I certainly don't think that's a bad thing. If this stuff is going on I'd rather read about it that some inconsequential shite about Paris Hilton or Pete Doherty. It's the same with climate change: it's good that people are being worried about it by the media, because if no-one's worried, fuck all is going to be done about it.

vimothy
06-06-2008, 04:11 PM
While we're at it, violence against homeless people seems to be on the rise and under-reported, in America (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-08-homelessattacks_N.htm) and the UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6999515.stm).


In its most recent study, "Hate, Violence, and Death on Main Street USA," the coalition documented attacks against the destitute in 62 communities last year alone, in 26 states. Since 1999, such violence has occurred in 44 states and Puerto Rico, and in 200 communities nationwide.

An overwhelming majority of the attackers — 88% — were 25 or younger; 95% were male. No less than 68% of those accused and convicted in attacks were between the ages of 13 and 19.

This pattern of violence, in Stoops' view, hasn't gotten the attention it deserves from the public or law enforcement.

"Homeless people are the newest minority group in America that is 'OK' to hate and hurt," he said. "It's as though, somehow, they're viewed as less deserving, less human than the rest of us."

Americans did pay attention to the story of 58-year-old Jacques Pierre, a homeless man who'd been sleeping on a bench on a college campus when three teenagers woke him up, taunted him, then nearly killed him with baseball bats.

Why?

That Jan. 12, 2006, ambush in Fort Lauderdale was filmed by a surveillance camera, and broadcast worldwide.

"For once," says Sean Cononie, who operates a homeless shelter in that seaside city, "Americans saw with their own eyes how kids hunt down and kill homeless people as though it were a sport."

Mr. Tea
06-06-2008, 08:10 PM
Christ, as if people in that situation haven't got enough to worry about.

bassnation
06-06-2008, 10:37 PM
I realise a lot goes unreported. That might have been mentioned here once or twice.

'Increased focus'. Yeah, I think that was discussed as well. :p

Another thing about knives v. guns: knives are quieter, you're usually going to be more reluctant to fire off a gun because it will immediately attract a lot of attention.

lol, serves me right for jumping in without reading all five pages of the thread. and thanks for being so polite when pointing that out!

although i'd like to make a general point about london - despite all the guns and knives, i feel safer here than i would in merthyr where i come from even though back there it would be fisti cuffs. in london its like an arms race. yeah theres violence but no-one really knows who is packing and who isn't. you can bluff, you can screwface. you do that in provincial towns and before you know it you've got a gang of heavies stamping on your skull. having front is a the wrong move cos the barrier of entry for violence is much lower in shitty small towns. its one thing for people to want to mug you for money but a lot of pissheads aren't interested in money but they get a buzz from violence when they end the night without pulling, and for me thats much much scarier.

the only time i've had shit round here (tulse hill / brixton) bizarrely was with a welsh bloke in an off license who was offended when i wouldn't speak welsh with him, which pretty much sums it up for me.

noel emits
12-06-2008, 12:21 PM
If this stuff is going on I'd rather read about it that some inconsequential shite about Paris Hilton or Pete Doherty.
George Michael says he'd rather not be in the pubic eye because stories about slebs are 'good cover' for other stuff going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7450238.stm

droid
12-06-2008, 12:51 PM
George Michael says he'd rather not be in the pubic eye because stories about slebs are 'good cover' for other stuff going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7450238.stm

I would've thought that the pubic eye would provide plenty of cover.

zhao
12-06-2008, 01:02 PM
would be interesting to compare violence statistics of London in the industrializing 19th century with today no?

noel emits
12-06-2008, 01:03 PM
I would've thought that the pubic eye would provide plenty of cover.
LOL. The L key on my keyboard is fracked.

Mr. Tea
12-06-2008, 01:32 PM
George Michael says he'd rather not be in the pubic eye because stories about slebs are 'good cover' for other stuff going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7450238.stm

Heh, and nothing at all to do with his personal history of getting nicked for propositioning undercover cops in public bogs or driving while stoned...

Mr. Tea
12-06-2008, 01:38 PM
would be interesting to compare violence statistics of London in the industrializing 19th century with today no?

In theory, yes, but virtually impossible in practice, I'd have thought. Also, there was probably a lot more violence of the simply acquisitive kind, namely shanking someone for a few pennies so you could get something to eat (or drink). A lot of the violence that's in the news at the moment seems mainly to do with pointless 'beefs' that are grounded in essentially fuck-all beyond macho dickheadery. Fucking 'post-code wars', indeed...

noel emits
12-06-2008, 02:01 PM
Heh, and nothing at all to do with his personal history of getting nicked for propositioning undercover cops in public bogs or driving while stoned...
Sure there's an element of that. But he seems quite genuine in being concerned about media focus as well and I think it's good that someone from the celebrity side of things should say that.

Mr. Tea
12-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Sure there's an element of that. But he seems quite genuine in being concerned about media focus as well and I think it's good that someone from the celebrity side of things should say that.

I've just listened to this (no sound on work 'puters) and yeah, he makes some good points.

tryptych
13-06-2008, 01:05 AM
There was a piece on the news the other week about the popularity of fencing lessons in a community centre in Tower Hamlets, which I thought was interesting.

On the surface it seemed a bit mental, but I assume it works in the same way as martial arts - kids learn fighting skills but they also learn focus and (fiddles with monocle) discipline.

I think this is great - I used to fence when I was younger, and the sport was dominated by kids from public schools who went to posh London salles. I think I read in some Olympics newsletter that dropped through our door that kids from a club in Homerton or Stratford had come top of their regional championships.

noel emits
13-06-2008, 10:28 AM
I suppose it's a trade of sorts but should we really be teaching youngsters how to stash stolen goods?

(obvious crap joke no.2 for the day. it just bugs me when they're left hanging there...)

noel emits
28-06-2008, 01:15 PM
Good article in The Independent today where the reporter actually talks to some kids an dat.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/why-do-children-carry-knives-the-view-from-the-streets-855001.html

straight
01-07-2008, 12:24 PM
anyone catch kids, knives, broken lives last night? shocker bad doc on channel 4. pretty much spent an hour listing all the different types of knife. and then guns. and then another list of things you can hit someone over the head with. To some concious community centre UK hiphop.

The documentary on before with the african doctor was much more even handed and managed to for once mention the fact that the murder rate and gang problem is much worse in inner city glasgow/strathclyde than anywhere else in the country.

noel emits
01-07-2008, 12:44 PM
One of these used Broken Heart (Martyn's DCM Remix) as well apparently.

Out to Hessle Audio crew I guess.

straight
01-07-2008, 01:10 PM
yeah there were a few martyn bits and then the token burial over the credits at the end. was a really interesting doc, they had people i used to deal with when i worked for manchester council on it.

I couldnt make it though Kids, knives... though, absolute joke of a show. I could only imagine some ridiculous cossick brass eye 'wind of change' finish topping the heavy handedness of the first half

crackerjack
01-07-2008, 02:35 PM
anyone catch kids, knives, broken lives last night? shocker bad doc on channel 4

As distinct from Panorama last night,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b00c80gb.shtml?src=ip_potpw
It's almost like there's a theme...

Yougn Gunmen was ok-ish, in as much as you can do anything but scratch the surface of such a subject in 30mins

noel emits
07-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Mark Easton - Skeptical of knife epidemic

I have done a bit more number-crunching for a piece on tonight's BBC News at Ten and I think it is quite informative. By my calculations, knife crime has risen three times faster in London over the past five years than the rest of England. This, I think, demonstrates how the situation in the capital has driven the claims of an epidemic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/07/sceptical_of_knife_epidemic.html

Mr. Tea
07-07-2008, 08:08 PM
Mark Easton - Skeptical of knife epidemic

I have done a bit more number-crunching for a piece on tonight's BBC News at Ten and I think it is quite informative. By my calculations, knife crime has risen three times faster in London over the past five years than the rest of England. This, I think, demonstrates how the situation in the capital has driven the claims of an epidemic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/07/sceptical_of_knife_epidemic.html


It wouldn't matter if exaggerating the scale of the problem didn't make it more likely youngsters will seek to protect themselves with knives...

This is quite telling - seems to fit into a category of 'Phenomena that get worse the more people know about them', perhaps along with the Bridgend suicides?

vimothy
08-07-2008, 10:59 AM
This is quite telling - seems to fit into a category of 'Phenomena that get worse the more people know about them', perhaps along with the Bridgend suicides?

& inflation.

poetix
08-07-2008, 02:14 PM
& inflation.

& cthulhu

vimothy
08-07-2008, 02:16 PM
& Pan.

Slothrop
08-07-2008, 03:18 PM
And club scenes.

Mr. Tea
08-07-2008, 03:26 PM
& cthulhu

And CANDYMAN! :eek:

And also an itch, ache or other minor ailment/physiological annoyance that you'd quite forgotten about until someone asks you how you're doing or whether it's gone away yet.


& Pan.'s People? :rolleyes:

mos dan
11-07-2008, 05:14 PM
This is quite telling - seems to fit into a category of 'Phenomena that get worse the more people know about them', perhaps along with the Bridgend suicides?

four stabbing deaths in london alone yesterday... this seems worryingly on-point. surely the only thing that could deflect tabloid attention now is a maddy/soham type story? it's the summer, so there's not going to be any politics to write about.

Mr. Tea
11-07-2008, 06:05 PM
The day saw further fatal stabbings in West Bromwich, West Midlands and Crosby, Merseyside. On Friday a man was wounded in north-west London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7501258.stm

Jesus, I think I'm just going to stop looking at the news altogether. :(

Fuck this, I'm going home, then to the pub.

mos dan
17-07-2008, 12:19 PM
I expect everyone will have seen today's crime figures story, but if not http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7511192.stm

"[The figures] also show that while the risk of being a victim is at its lowest ever level, people still think that the rate is going up."

Brilliant. Another victory for the Broken Britain brigade.

vimothy
17-07-2008, 01:55 PM
Sells newspapers, innit.

On the other hand, crime is apparently above the national average where I live, which isn't great news.

Did anyone hear about the study that the Manchester Uni law school just published about gang membership? It was on the front of the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/14/knifecrime.ukcrime) the other day...

IdleRich
17-07-2008, 02:00 PM
It's surprising (to me at least) that London isn't one of the worst places for "serious crimes against the person" - although it is for robbery and burglary.

mms
17-07-2008, 07:27 PM
this is an interesting story from hattie collins about DJ Ironik's stay with me track but it does seems to be a little bit exaggerated, and more about missing gran than yr mans.

http://music.guardian.co.uk/urban/story/0,,2291010,00.html

Mr. Tea
18-07-2008, 03:02 PM
It's surprising (to me at least) that London isn't one of the worst places for "serious crimes against the person" - although it is for robbery and burglary.

Crime like that probably happens more often in London than any other town or city just because it's such a huge place. If you look at rates per 1,000 people per year or whatever, I'm sure there are much worse places (hello, Glasgow!).

On the point about the likelihood of being a victim of a stabbing or mugging, it's stupid that Mr. and Mrs. Dailymailreader are terrified to leave their house for fear of being set upon by feral hoodies, because as other people have mentioned here, most kinds of crime (and even most violent crime) are actually decreasing. But that's small comfort to a black teenager in Lewisham or Edmonton for whom the possibility of ending up on the business end of someone's flick-knife is very real. I think Polly Tonybee had it about right a few days ago when she called teen-on-teen knife crime "a form of collective self-harm", and I think it's pretty poor form to tell people they shouldn't worry about it just because they're not likely to be a victim themselves.

noel emits
18-07-2008, 03:15 PM
"[The figures] also show that while the risk of being a victim is at its lowest ever level, people still think that the rate is going up."

Brilliant. Another victory for the Broken Britain brigade.
So the actual figures are more of a victory for the 'Britain's not as broken as the broken Britain brigade believe, brigade.'

nomos
22-07-2008, 05:01 PM
not to make light of anything but...

Britain on alert for deadly new knife with exploding tip that freezes victims' organs (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035729/Britain-alert-deadly-new-knife-exploding-tip-freezes-victims-organs.html) - Daily Mail, of course

Also watch for attack dogs with bees up their noses and when they sneeze they shoot bees at you

mos dan
22-07-2008, 05:04 PM
Also watch for attack dogs with bees up their noses and when they sneeze they shoot bees at you

ROFL!!

i was talking about that knife with some friends last night. we decided it might have some handy culinary uses. for one thing it's a great way to make ice cubes when you need some for your g'n't when you're camping by a stream...

Mr. Tea
22-07-2008, 05:50 PM
not to make light of anything but...

Britain on alert for deadly new knife with exploding tip that freezes victims' organs (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035729/Britain-alert-deadly-new-knife-exploding-tip-freezes-victims-organs.html) - Daily Mail, of course

Also watch for attack dogs with bees up their noses and when they sneeze they shoot bees at you

Hahaha...could be just what you need to defend yourself from hordes of crazed crack squirrels (http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/images4/squirrelsoncrack.jpg) as you make your way home through Camberwell.

noel emits
22-07-2008, 06:00 PM
What's up with 'senior police officers' basically giving loads of publicity to this product? What exactly is the point?

Mr. Tea
22-07-2008, 06:06 PM
What's up with 'senior police officers' basically giving loads of publicity to this product? What exactly is the point?

Backhanders from the manufacturers, innit.

http://www.wench.org/forums/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

noel emits
22-07-2008, 07:31 PM
Well it's the newspapers really isn't it. Fear-mongering. But where did the story come from? And it is kind of irresponsible I think.

zhao
31-07-2008, 02:50 PM
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Man stabbed, beheaded on bus to Winnipeg from Edmonton
globe and Mail Update
July 31, 2008 at 6:07 AM EDT

BRANDON, MAN. A young man travelling on a Greyhound bus was stabbed to death and beheaded by a stranger in a horrifying act of apparently random violence.

The incident occurred on a bus travelling from Edmonton to Winnipeg just before 10 p.m. Wednesday.

A man of about 18 who was sleeping with headphones on was suddenly attacked by his seat mate, according to the man who sat directly in front of them.

He was stabbed repeatedly with a large hunting knife, sending blood spraying across the interior of the bus. The driver quickly pulled over and passengers fled out the front door.

The man then sawed off the victim's head and carried it to the front of the bus.

The two did not apparently know one another. The victim boarded the bus in Edmonton, one witness said, and the attacker boarded in Manitoba.

A standoff with police ensued until about 1 a.m. local time.

One man was taken into custody.

Garnet Caton, 26, was sitting in the seat in front of the attacker.

"I was just reading a book and all of a sudden I heard a guy screaming. I turned around and the guy sitting right beside me was standing up and stabbing another guy with a big Rambo knife," he said.

"Right in the throat. Repeatedly."

The man wielding the knife had a shaved head and was wearing sunglasses, he said.

"He looked totally calm. He didn't say a word I don't think to anybody on the bus ... nothing. Just totally calm."

Mr. Caton said most passengers were sleeping at the time and didn't realize what was happening.

"I screamed 'stop the bus!' ... Everybody got the hell off, and people at the front of the bus didn't really understand what was going on. It almost turned into a trample scene there, everybody trying to get off the bus. But the guy didn't care at all. He wasn't concerned with anybody but the guy he was stabbing.

"The guy was totally calm. When he brought the head he looked at us and dropped it. It was like he was having a day at the beach. He couldn't be bothered by anything else."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080731.wmanbus0731/BNStory/National/home

Mr. Tea
31-07-2008, 04:05 PM
"But the guy didn't care at all. He wasn't concerned with anybody but the guy he was stabbing."


Funny way to show concern for someone!

mos dan
13-12-2008, 03:54 PM
I have written up a semantic breakdown of the Newsnight report the other night that was troubling me... the one where a kid ends up talking about how he's level 5 out of 10, in his Walthamstow gang.. see whether you think it's a Morrisian prank or legit sounding..?

http://dan-hancox.blogspot.com/2008/12/london-gang-culture-on-newsnight-know.html

mixed_biscuits
13-12-2008, 05:15 PM
Not that I want to rain on your parade, but this seems like a somewhat minor quibble - the gang member makes it clear that acts of violence are needed to gain esteem from his peers; whether this esteem is shown explicitly or not (or is ticked off on a neatly-typed career progression form that new members are given on their induction course) is beside the point, however great the potential for comic incongruity may be (IMHO).

nomadthethird
13-12-2008, 07:24 PM
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Man stabbed, beheaded on bus to Winnipeg from Edmonton
globe and Mail Update
July 31, 2008 at 6:07 AM EDT

BRANDON, MAN. A young man travelling on a Greyhound bus was stabbed to death and beheaded by a stranger in a horrifying act of apparently random violence.

The incident occurred on a bus travelling from Edmonton to Winnipeg just before 10 p.m. Wednesday.

A man of about 18 who was sleeping with headphones on was suddenly attacked by his seat mate, according to the man who sat directly in front of them.

He was stabbed repeatedly with a large hunting knife, sending blood spraying across the interior of the bus. The driver quickly pulled over and passengers fled out the front door.

The man then sawed off the victim's head and carried it to the front of the bus.

The two did not apparently know one another. The victim boarded the bus in Edmonton, one witness said, and the attacker boarded in Manitoba.

A standoff with police ensued until about 1 a.m. local time.

One man was taken into custody.

Garnet Caton, 26, was sitting in the seat in front of the attacker.

"I was just reading a book and all of a sudden I heard a guy screaming. I turned around and the guy sitting right beside me was standing up and stabbing another guy with a big Rambo knife," he said.

"Right in the throat. Repeatedly."

The man wielding the knife had a shaved head and was wearing sunglasses, he said.

"He looked totally calm. He didn't say a word I don't think to anybody on the bus ... nothing. Just totally calm."

Mr. Caton said most passengers were sleeping at the time and didn't realize what was happening.

"I screamed 'stop the bus!' ... Everybody got the hell off, and people at the front of the bus didn't really understand what was going on. It almost turned into a trample scene there, everybody trying to get off the bus. But the guy didn't care at all. He wasn't concerned with anybody but the guy he was stabbing.

"The guy was totally calm. When he brought the head he looked at us and dropped it. It was like he was having a day at the beach. He couldn't be bothered by anything else."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080731.wmanbus0731/BNStory/National/home

They didn't mention the part about the guy eating his victim's fingers.

nomadthethird
13-12-2008, 07:26 PM
Hahaha...could be just what you need to defend yourself from hordes of crazed crack squirrels (http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/images4/squirrelsoncrack.jpg) as you make your way home through Camberwell.

I'd be kind of surprised if crack worked exactly the same for squirrels as it does for us...they're so small, that much ammonia would be neurotoxic to them wouldn' t it?

Also, what kind of crackhead drops crack on the ground? Empty vials, yes. But most crackheads would be fighting the squirrel to get the crack back.

nomadthethird
13-12-2008, 07:32 PM
It's surprising (to me at least) that London isn't one of the worst places for "serious crimes against the person" - although it is for robbery and burglary.

It's the same in NYC. The serial murder/murder in cold blood (this doesn't include gang/drug murder) rate is astoundingly low compared to most other mid-sized cities, while all the petty crimes (and rape) are pretty high.

There are close to 100 reported rapes (so you can estimate that there something like 220-250 occur) a year in my neighborhood alone, which is like a 20x20 block area with 100,000 people living in it. It has the most sex offenders per capita of any neighborhood in New York, too, according to New York Magazine this year.

nomadthethird
13-12-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm not trying to be a total dick in saying this, but I can't help but think it's weird that a couple of stabbings made the news anyway. Unless you stab someone in a vital organ or hit the right artery or whatever, or have a really long knife, or stab them dozens of times, you're probably not going to kill them.

Whenever I've been to Woodhull's ER (more times than you'd probably imagine) there are always like dozens of stab victims and gunshot victims (like little 9mm round wounds). And they're all on the phone recruiting people to go kill the guy who did it. I heard one guy saying "I'll get you new tickets for Miami next week" to someone on the phone, so they would stick around to get revenge.

This "teenage bloodlust knifings run rampant" thing reminds me of those movies from the 1950s about greasers fighting preps in suburbia. Or The Outsiders.

owengriffiths
14-12-2008, 07:04 PM
the one where a kid ends up talking about how he's level 5 out of 10, in his Walthamstow gang.. see whether you think it's a Morrisian prank or legit sounding..?

http://dan-hancox.blogspot.com/2008/12/london-gang-culture-on-newsnight-know.html

whenever I hear the word 'level' I think of video games: "yeah, I chibbed a few people so I was brought up to level 5, but the princess was in another castle"

mos dan
14-12-2008, 07:26 PM
Not that I want to rain on your parade, but this seems like a somewhat minor quibble - the gang member makes it clear that acts of violence are needed to gain esteem from his peers; whether this esteem is shown explicitly or not (or is ticked off on a neatly-typed career progression form that new members are given on their induction course) is beside the point, however great the potential for comic incongruity may be (IMHO).

it's minor compared to the horror of the violence itself, and minor in the sense that, as you say, hierarchies and degrees of esteem are obviously important to street gangs, irrespective of whether they're codified into levels.

BUT i think a bbc news journalist might have - through ignorance - given a misleading impression of how organised london's gangs are. that's an issue worth raising imo.

(also it's funny)

mos dan
14-12-2008, 07:28 PM
can i just point out, lest it confuse anyone else, that there are at least two places called edmonton being discussed in this thread :p

hucks
25-01-2009, 11:48 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7849658.stm

First violent teenage death in London this year. I'm fairly certain there were three or four by this time last year. And the story says that there were 28 violent teenage deaths in London last year, which is pretty much identical to the year before.

I may be making this up, misremembering, but last summer I think there had been more teenage murders than at the same time in 2007. So at some stage this "frenzy" has possibly begun to slow down.

Can anyone shed any light/ confirm or deny this?

mos dan
25-01-2009, 12:34 PM
Can anyone shed any light/ confirm or deny this?

gah i tried to reply to this once and my pc bluescreened. i blame the media-industrial conspiracy.

all i was saying is 'this is interesting, do we have more statistics/perspective on last year's 'frenzy' now?'

nochexxx
25-01-2009, 01:07 PM
"The prosecutor said the man wielded a knife of nearly eight inches long and had painted his face white with black patches around the eyes."

i wonder if this guy who committed these horrifying stabbings in a belgium nursery (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Belgium-Nursery-Stabbing-Investigation-Promised-Suspect-Being-Questioned-In-Dendermonde/Article/200901415209573?f=rss) will be later found out to be connected to a satanic music scene.

hucks
25-01-2009, 06:39 PM
gah i tried to reply to this once and my pc bluescreened. i blame the media-industrial conspiracy.

all i was saying is 'this is interesting, do we have more statistics/perspective on last year's 'frenzy' now?'

Likewise just lost a post of my own. Oh yeah, there's something going on here.

Here (http://www.capitalradio.co.uk/news-travel/london/2008s-teen-murder-victims/) is a rundown of all the teenagers murdered in London last year and the year before, from Capital Radio.

In 2007 there were 27 teenagers murdered, in 2008 there were 28, but 27 of those were murdered by the end of September. So, in the last 4 months, there have been 2 teenagers murdered, one last year and one this.

A quarter by quarter summary is below

Q1 2007 8 murders
Q2 2007 8
Q3 2007 4
Q4 2007 7
Q1 2008 11
Q2 2008 6
Q3 2008 10
Q4 2008 1

Obviously, we shouldn't read too much into what happens in one quarter, but the signs might be positive.

And if so, anyone know why? Has Mayor Boris changed anything, or have the Met? Or so these things inevitably burn out?

mos dan
25-01-2009, 06:53 PM
anyone know why? Has Mayor Boris changed anything, or have the Met? Or so these things inevitably burn out?

it seems pretty astonishing that no politician or met spokesman has tried to claim credit... maybe one quarter 'isn't enough', like you say.

thanks for the stats, fascinating stuff.

Mr. Tea
25-01-2009, 07:01 PM
There has to be two consecutive quarters of decreasing stabbing statistics for it to count as an official stab-recession


Edit: the drop over the last few months could be something as simple as the cold weather meaning kids aren't spending so much time on the streets.

hucks
25-01-2009, 07:14 PM
There has to be two consecutive quarters of decreasing stabbing statistics for it to count as an official stab-recession


Edit: the drop over the last few months could be something as simple as the cold weather meaning kids aren't spending so much time on the streets.

Exactly. Tho it was lower than the previous Q4, when presumably it was cold as well. I read somewhere that a large number of these stabbings happened during school holidays, which makes some sense, and suggests some seasonality to them.

nomadthethird
26-01-2009, 12:09 AM
There has to be two consecutive quarters of decreasing stabbing statistics for it to count as an official stab-recession


Edit: the drop over the last few months could be something as simple as the cold weather meaning kids aren't spending so much time on the streets.

It's long been understood in the U.S. that if you reduce the amount of time that underprivileged teens in rough neighborhoods spend on the streets, you will reduce violent crimes among those groups.

This is why people push for more government funding for after school programs and such for these demographics, because many of them are "latchkey" kids or even worse their parents simply don't give a shit where they are or what they do, or they are in trouble with the law frequently themselves.