Upper Classes "take personal credit for accidents of birth"

ripley

Well-known member
sorry I just got depressed seeing the headline about working class people every time I logged in.

I would like to know, though, exactly how people in the other thread are accounting for accidents of birth which provide some people with a lot of social advantages, which social advantages would likely account for the vast majority of people who are *not* born working-class being able to achieve more in life (at least in the way the discussion there has measured achievement).

I'm just not finding all the chat about "aspirations" very convincing on a systemic level. aspirations have a lot to do with what you have access to. And "intelligence" as well (measurements of intelligence usually capture a lot that has to do with experience, let alone any inborn ability is affected by one's growth and environment, even in terms of access to protein and such). There are exceptions, of course, but when you are talking about huge numbers of people I see too many material advantages from nutrition to education to having the right accent that smooth a lot of the path for you.

for the highest-achievers, the outliers, the superstars, the geniuses, other things may count in. But in terms of the broad masses of people who end up reasonably successful in life, or don't, i find the arguments around "intelligence" (as measured by IQ) pretty circular.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Whoever said intelligence isn't an accident of birth?

As far as 'success' in life goes, I'd say this has a lot more to do with things like initiative and level-headedness or maturity than pure IQ (as Noel mentions in the other thread with regard to 'clever' people who are nonetheless fuck-ups).
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
As far as 'success' in life goes, I'd say this has a lot more to do with things like initiative and level-headedness or maturity than pure IQ (as Noel mentions in the other thread with regard to 'clever' people who are nonetheless fuck-ups).
I did say something like that and I should add that I think there are two aspects to this. One is the people who are simply not interested in pursuing what would be seen as the usual types of goals for their own reasons. The other is those who whilst very intelligent in some respects have neglected to develop certain other faculties necessary for effective living. So that's not really a healthy well rounded intelligence.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
There are exceptions, of course, but when you are talking about huge numbers of people I see too many material advantages from nutrition to education to having the right accent that smooth a lot of the path for you.
Yes an 'advantage' is exactly that. Statistically it's going to mean that those born into privileged positions will 'do better'. It doesn't mean that you can't 'achieve' without being born with all the advantages but overall it surely helps.

So many scare quotes I know but these terms are kind of loaded with presumptions.

But hang on a second ripley, you colonial types may not appreciate this but 'taking credit for accidents of birth' is what made Britain great! ;)
 
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ripley

Well-known member
Whoever said intelligence isn't an accident of birth?

As far as 'success' in life goes, I'd say this has a lot more to do with things like initiative and level-headedness or maturity than pure IQ (as Noel mentions in the other thread with regard to 'clever' people who are nonetheless fuck-ups).

no you're missing the point.

it is not all about personal capacity and personal responsibility and choice and attitude. In fact, I don't see how it can even be mainly or majority about those things. Those are all things that allow you to discuss "success" and "achievement" as if they can be reached outside of social processes and social institutions.

But they don't. Society structures individual access to resources (including things like sleep and nutrition) which affect one's chances in ways which simply cannot be reduced to individual capacity or choice.

accident of birth is maybe too vague a phrase (in that it allows you to think about inborn characteristics), but I was trying to find a catchy title...
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
Yes an 'advantage' is exactly that. Statistically it's going to mean that those born into privileged positions will 'do better'. It doesn't mean that you can't 'achieve' without being born with all the advantages but overall it surely helps.
I wrote this but I'm not happy about it. It seems self-evident but it's too simplistic and deterministic. There is obviously more than one kind of 'advantage' just as there is more than one kind of success. A person's nature and experiences are far too complex and unique to be boiled down to generalities about birth circumstances, so while this statistical reasoning seems logical I think it is too limiting an outlook and ultimately a part of the myth that tells people what their 'place' is.
 

matt b

Indexing all opinion
Whoever said intelligence isn't an accident of birth?

As far as 'success' in life goes, I'd say this has a lot more to do with things like initiative and level-headedness or maturity than pure IQ (as Noel mentions in the other thread with regard to 'clever' people who are nonetheless fuck-ups).

harry and william windsor being fine examples of level-headed, mature, initiative using individuals who have found success.

when you use such terms, what do you mean? could it not be the case that those from wealthy backgrounds have the ability to make use of such traits in ways that those from poor ones simply don't?

for example, a middle class boy uses his dad's contacts to get a work placement in a firm of solicitors for example ('initiative') . or, acknowledges that they'll have to borrow money from their parents whilst they intern at a newspaper in order to get the experience necessary to get a full-time job in journalism ('maturity').

these options are simply not on offer for w.class kids- that doesn't mean they don't have the same traits.
 
D

droid

Guest
for example, a middle class boy uses his dad's contacts to get a work placement in a firm of solicitors for example ('initiative') . or, acknowledges that they'll have to borrow money from their parents whilst they intern at a newspaper in order to get the experience necessary to get a full-time job in journalism ('maturity').

Or on the other side - being passed over for job interviews or promotions simply because you don't have the correct accent or postcode, or not being able to afford to go to college, or having to drop out of school to take a shit job cos you need the money to help support your family...

It sounds like cliché until you witness or experience it yourself...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
But they don't. Society structures individual access to resources (including things like sleep and nutrition) which affect one's chances in ways which simply cannot be reduced to individual capacity or choice.

But that's just what I mean! The upbringing you have is just as much an accident of birth as your genetics. Both aspects have a strong effect on intelligence. It's not really any more to your 'credit' that you're intelligent than it is that you're tall, have good eyesight or whatever.

Of course, what you choose to do with that intelligence is up to you, but even this will be determined by attitudes and values you will have as a result of your upbringing, social conditioning and so on - so we're back round to the ol' free-will debate, aren't we?
 
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