Meet the Focas (Anglican schism?)

IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
Does anyone care about this?

"Great swaths of Anglican provinces, including Africa, South America and Asia, are furious with their counterparts in the northern hemisphere, accusing them of being in thrall to contemporary culture, with the ordination and consecration of gay New Hampshire bishop Gene Robinson acting as a turning point. The creation of Foca is a schism in all but name."
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/30/anglicanism.religion?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

Kind of interesting to me. I always have the feeling that the church (and Williams) is trapped in an impossible situation where the westerners want to "modernise" (ie stop being such a bunch of cunts and recognise that being gay isn't an evil perversion) but they are hamstrung by the fact that to do so they will have to directly contradict their holy text. Is it just that in the present day an ancient religion can only exist in a kind of schizophrenic form where all members have to constantly engage in double-think?
Also, now this has occurred, does it mean that each of the two bodies will be weaker than the previous whole or will each of them be less divided and thus stronger? Will this ultimately lead to a full breakaway with all the associated court battles over who owns what? I'd be quite interested to see how all this develops over the next few years anyway.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
Yep, this should prove very interesting!

The more schisms the better as far as I'm concerned - culminating in so many splits that there can no longer be a "Church of England".

As far as I can see., what people get out of religion is feeling of the eternal, that despite how things change the church provides a solid bedrock of certainty.

But of course it doesn't work in every single case where a text has been written by humans 2000 years ago. So your options are either fundamentalism or modernisation, both of which are fraught with problems.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"The more schisms the better as far as I'm concerned - culminating in so many splits that there can no longer be a "Church of England"."
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That's pretty much what I was going to say but I didn't want to sound too down on the whole thing. My guess is basically that (almost) splitting in half can only be a bad thing for the church and thus, I tend to think, a good thing for society as a whole.
I do feel sorry for Rowan Williams though because for some totally arbitrary reason I kind of like him.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
IdleRich said:
That's pretty much what I was going to say but I didn't want to sound too down on the whole thing. My guess is basically that (almost) splitting in half can only be a bad thing for the church and thus, I tend to think, a good thing for society as a whole.
I do feel sorry for Rowan Williams though because for some totally arbitrary reason I kind of like him.
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I think in general it is quite hard to hate specific C of E vicars (unless the come out with a load of tabloideque shite, which is rare) but very easy to hate the church.

I guess as individuals they are seen as being amiable and harmless, spending their time talking to old ladies and organising jumble sales. Which is good.

So Rev Williams I think is seen as an extension of that, bumbling do gooder, head in the clouds sort. He is also on the right side of the modernism vs fundamentalism divide.

But then there was all that cock about Sharia law recently and he is the head of an organisation which commands enormous political power and is one of the biggest land owners in the UK and all that.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"So Rev Williams I think is seen as an extension of that, bumbling do gooder, head in the clouds sort. He is also on the right side of the modernism vs fundamentalism divide.
But then there was all that cock about Sharia law recently and he is the head of an organisation which commands enormous political power and is one of the biggest land owners in the UK and all that."
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I think that the Sharia law thing was probably a perfect example of head-in-the-cloudsness but I agree on the political power and I would be glad to see it diminished. Regarding the land and property that it owns, I would love to see a drawn-out and undignified court battle between the two factions as they separate but I'm sure they realise how badly that would play - it's hard to preach that possessions don't matter when you're taking someone to court to get their gold candlesticks.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
john eden said:
I think in general it is quite hard to hate specific C of E vicars (unless the come out with a load of tabloideque shite, which is rare) but very easy to hate the church.

I guess as individuals they are seen as being amiable and harmless, spending their time talking to old ladies and organising jumble sales. Which is good.

So Rev Williams I think is seen as an extension of that, bumbling do gooder, head in the clouds sort. He is also on the right side of the modernism vs fundamentalism divide.

But then there was all that cock about Sharia law recently and he is the head of an organisation which commands enormous political power and is one of the biggest land owners in the UK and all that.
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I think the c of E is actually quite a moderating force and I'm in favour of it for that reason. i suspect the alternatives are much darker, more fire and brimstone, better music but more nutters. I went to one of thosehools that say C of E on the door and leave you feeling you've had an agnostic education. To my mind that can only be a good thing.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
As it happens, I'm quite good friends with a gay bishop who says that Williams is indeed a bumbling do gooder and really only wants to be left alone to do borderline druidic type theological research.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"As it happens, I'm quite good friends with a gay bishop who says that Williams is indeed a bumbling do gooder and really only wants to be left alone to do borderline druidic type theological research."
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Some would suggest that if you just want to be left alone to concentrate on your research then perhaps you shouldn't take on the position of spiritual leader of an enormous worldwide faith at a time of huge intercultural tensions.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
As it happens, I'm quite good friends with a gay bishop who says that Williams is indeed a bumbling do gooder and really only wants to be left alone to do borderline druidic type theological research.
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No prizes for how I misread 'bumbling'...
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
IdleRich said:
Some would suggest that if you just want to be left alone to concentrate on your research then perhaps you shouldn't take on the position of spiritual leader of an enormous worldwide faith at a time of huge intercultural tensions.
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What's the phrase... "Calling"? "Vocation"? Sometimes a hairy druid just has to do what a hairy druid has to do, even if he'd rather be sat in the backgarden listening to The Incredible String Band.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Wasn't the whole sharia comment taken (with wearying predictability) completely out of context and proportion by the press, though? As I understand it he was simply suggesting legal recognition for something that's pretty widespread already, and would amount to legislation voluntarily entered into that would work in addition to, not instead of, the laws of the land as they already exist and apply to everyone. I think there's already an equivalent thing in practice for orthodox Jews in this country.

I guess the absolutely key thing would be to ensure that sharia-bound contracts really are entered into voluntarily by all parties. I can see how there could be a lot of opportunities for coercion in this process, is what I mean.
 
mos dan

mos dan

fact music
IdleRich said:
That's pretty much what I was going to say but I didn't want to sound too down on the whole thing. My guess is basically that (almost) splitting in half can only be a bad thing for the church and thus, I tend to think, a good thing for society as a whole.
I do feel sorry for Rowan Williams though because for some totally arbitrary reason I kind of like him.
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the beard - and the fact that you can buy a teddy bear version of him - does make it more difficult to hate him.

to play devil's advocate, isn't the institutional reinforcement of bigotry - in this case, homophobic bigotry - a bad thing? in particular since it will do so in societies where such bigotry is so much more accepted? isn't keeping people under the big happy clappy non-serious laughing stock clearly hypocritical english-style CoE better than, erm, not?

rich, btw - headline of the year so far, very well done.
 
mos dan

mos dan

fact music
o/t what sitcom is it (father ted?) where a catholic and CoE priest are taunting one another, the latter says sarcastically to the former 'nice dress', and the catholic responds with 'pah, go and have sex with your wife!'

as a kind of insult. very funny anyway.
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Wasn't the whole sharia comment taken (with wearying predictability) completely out of context and proportion by the press, though?"
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Almost certainly but that's what I mean by having his head in the clouds, it should have been obvious when he made that announcement that every paper would take the opportunity to bash the bishop with "Williams demands that thieves have their hands chopped off" headlines.
 
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Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
IdleRich said:
Almost certainly but that's what I mean by having his head in the clouds, it should have been obvious when he made that announcment that every paper would take the opportunity to bash the bishop with "Williams demands that thieves have their hands chopped off" headlines.
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I can imagine a certain ambivalence about this at the Daily Mail HQ: "Well on one hand it's the creed of filthy immigrant heathens, but on the other it's actually a bloody good idea..."
 
IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
"to play devil's advocate, isn't the institutional reinforcement of bigotry - in this case, homophobic bigotry - a bad thing? in particular since it will do so in societies where such bigotry is so much more accepted? isn't keeping people under the big happy clappy non-serious laughing stock clearly hypocritical english-style CoE better than, erm, not?"
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How do you mean - that the Anglican communion as one body under Williams could act as a brake regarding some of the more extreme viewpoints of its less cuddly members? I reckon that that's probably true to an extent and that's why the extreme members want to get rid of that brake.

"rich, btw - headline of the year so far, very well done."
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I was beginning to regret it as rather childish to be honest but thank you.
 
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