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josef k.
16-08-2008, 05:03 PM
Adbusters attacks the figure of the Hipster:

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/79/hipster.html

Momus responds:

http://imomus.livejournal.com/390994.html

K-punk confesses and counter-attacks:

http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/010588.html

Are hipsters in fact the scourge of contemporary civilization, who must be combated with "good" resentment in order to advance the egalitarian cause of communism, or is this issue a waste-of-time internal status-play being conducted within the confines of a self-obsessed creative class?

Personally, I lean towards the latter hypothesis, and suspect that the only people who actually give a shit about hipsters are embittered intellectuals lamely trying to pony-up their own points of distinction, and using it as a yard-car like target for taking-out their own various complexes and imaginary revenges. But I open it out to the floor.

IdleRich
16-08-2008, 05:20 PM
Momus responds:

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/79/hipster.html
Think you've put the wrong link there?

mms
16-08-2008, 07:56 PM
what's a hipster ?
Is it someone who plays a game of keeping up with the joneses buying into subcultural kudos through all the right purchases and moves?

I think the momus correctly identifies the roots of this in skateboard culture, the first culture to document themselves, their actions art and interests in videos and magazines and sell them back to a larger audience who are also participating on different levels in the same or similar things.
The skateboard shirt represented the subculture and could be bought without any participation in the act of skateboarding, and that's the kind of mass reproduced look of a kind of hipsterdom, once the meaning of that was removed the idea of self-reflexive documentation without an act used too, because afterall its all 'media' , although skateboarding as an act always carried lots of absurdities and transgressions on levels, this is of course missed on someone who wants the cultural currency of a subculture though. It's something momus has overlooked too, as hipsters don't commit to what he identifies as skateboard cultures creativity.

josef k.
16-08-2008, 08:25 PM
I think you make a good point with your nod to "looks" - the skateboarder "look" coming to replace the skateboarder counter-culture.

But one thing re: the hipster look is that its totally mainstream; H&M, American Apparel, the main suppliers of hipster fashion, these are global corporations now, not niche suppliers.

Personally, I think that, much more interesting that hipsters themselves is the hatred of hipsters, which tends to bespeak of a certain political or imaginative impotence, if not - as Gavin McInnes suggests - an actual impotence. In this sense, the fact that this argument is appearing in Adbusters - a magazine highly identified with nineties anti-globalization movements, but which has struggled to maintain its relevance since - is both telling, and depressing.

The hipster, I think, is being shoehorned into place here in order to account for the fact of Adbuster's own decreasing political status, as a kind of substitute for a positive initiative, or a strategic rethink, which would be much difficult to do. With nothing to propose, the fall-back position is one of condemnation. You can see similar rhetorical operations at work in the socialist, or post-socialist British left. I remember one fellow-traveler once telling me, with a perfectly straight-face - in fact, quite angrily: "Hippies are *the* enemy." "Really?" I thought to myself at the time, "*The* Enemy? Really?"

turtles
16-08-2008, 09:06 PM
The adbuster article is of their usual poorly written rant quality, and no, hipsters do not represent *THE* threat to modern society. But is anyone really going to defend hipsterism as some vital and important social movement?? It has no political program other than the development of personal cultural capital, as defined by (and reflexively defining) whatever the current trends are. It's a self enclosed, self-centered, feedback loop. For all the ultimately ineffectual political posturing of the hippies or the punks, is the non-position of apolitical disengagement and pleasure seaking supposed to be better?

I mean, I include myself at least partially in the hipster realm (as I'm sure many here would too), and I have to say that this bit from last paragraph absolutely struck a chord with me:

We are a lost generation, desperately clinging to anything that feels real, but too afraid to become it ourselves. We are a defeated generation, resigned to the hypocrisy of those before us, who once sang songs of rebellion and now sell them back to us. We are the last generation, a culmination of all previous things, destroyed by the vapidity that surrounds us. The hipster represents the end of Western civilization Ė a culture so detached and disconnected that it has stopped giving birth to anything new.

No matter how much great music, movies, and books that I consume, culturally, I do feel defeated. I feel like we could keep going on down this road forever, perfectly content, and it would never make a damn shit of a difference outside our little niche community.

Mr. Tea
16-08-2008, 09:26 PM
Josef's point about how hipsters have become mainstream is spot on. All those fucking awful shirts in H&M that purport to associate the wearer with having been a lifeguard on Long Beach in 1972 - or shirts that just say "1972" and leave it at that...this sort of stuff was the preserve of the Shoreditch 'elite' five or seven years ago. Now you see 'Hoxton fin' haircuts on blokes who work in mobile phone shops, and those Palestinian headscarf things on girls with pink velour tracksuits and hoop earrings. It's a recycling of an aesthetic that was based wholly on appropriation and retro-worship in the first place.

droid
16-08-2008, 10:24 PM
what's a hipster ?


http://styleslut.blogspot.com/

mms
16-08-2008, 10:26 PM
The hipster, I think, is being shoehorned into place here in order to account for the fact of Adbuster's own decreasing political status, as a kind of substitute for a positive initiative, or a strategic rethink, which would be much difficult to do. With nothing to propose, the fall-back position is one of condemnation. You can see similar rhetorical operations at work in the socialist, or post-socialist British left. I remember one fellow-traveler once telling me, with a perfectly straight-face - in fact, quite angrily: "Hippies are *the* enemy." "Really?" I thought to myself at the time, "*The* Enemy? Really?"

well when i see a pre teen wearing a che guevara shirt i would have to agree that cultural capital for it's sake, is a grim reality. You always have to do something, create something, help something be greated, critique something, deny something and make choices what those things are.

josef k.
16-08-2008, 10:41 PM
Is anyone really going to defend hipsterism as some vital and important social movement?? It has no political program other than the development of personal cultural capital, as defined by (and reflexively defining) whatever the current trends are. It's a self enclosed, self-centered, feedback loop. For all the ultimately ineffectual political posturing of the hippies or the punks, is the non-position of apolitical disengagement and pleasure seaking supposed to be better?

[...]

No matter how much great music, movies, and books that I consume, culturally, I do feel defeated. I feel like we could keep going on down this road forever, perfectly content, and it would never make a damn shit of a difference outside our little niche community.


A fair point. I'd say two things here. First of all, as many have noticed, the critique of hipsterdom clearly circles right back into the same feedback loop you described. What is at the center of this strangely persistent strip? I think it is worth thinking at this point about the possibility that there may today exist an "inner" hipster - a sort of demonic, self-obsessed, distinguishing figure who might perhaps be defined by the fact that s/he is always trying to get a little bit of a symbolic or cultural edge, who is always wrapped in the status game, and seeing how they can win it. "I am not like them others. Because the others are bad." For bad, one may equally insert: "Not cool, not political, not hip enough, not intelligent enough, not engaged enough, etc..." Or even: "The music they listen to isn't cool enough, isn't strange enough, isn't far-out enough." I note in passing that one comes across this move again and again on k-punk's website. But is this not, quite precisely, the essential "hipster" move?

Furthermore, I think the very fact, actually, that nobody is really shaping-up to defend hipsters (although, at this point, given the hegemony of the anti-hipster posture, especially amongst hipsters themselves, I find myself suddenly tempted to, and think perhaps there may be even be merit in it) suggests the debate isn't worth all that much. What, after all, is at stake in it? What would it mean if it is won? To my mind, if there is a single definitive "hipster" affect, it is perhaps obsessive, more-or-less disavowed self-hatred, which is in fact anchoring the political resignation. All this is clearly being fed here, and this suggests to me that this topic should perhaps be treated with a certain amount of caution. For whom, after all, is this question interesting? Obviously, for other hipsters - who are of course, in fact not hipsters, and who are naturally outside this whole question.

Finally, I would say that to my mind, it is actually this resigned self-hatred which is the worst aspect of hipsterdom. Is there anything more immobilizing than self-hatred, whether projected outwards (as resentment) or inwards (as masochism?) All the cases where it has actually attained power, moreover, have been the occasions of the worst disasters: Hitler, Pol Pot, Nixon (perhaps a bit harsh, here) and so on. For this reason, and to borrow a line from Eileen Myles, I'd like to conclude with the following.

We are all hipsters. And I am your president.

mms
17-08-2008, 05:54 PM
http://styleslut.blogspot.com/

well yes, but worse is that whole mp3 blog, exclusively giving something away complete with pr bumf to back it up before it's released in a shallow game of who's first with the new micro-musical trend, the act of sharing in those cases isn't actually about sharing in the same way something like those guys who stick their record collection on youtube or do a mix or wikipedia, freecycle etc and actual internet expressions of community are, it's an expression of how far ahead that persons position is of the pack.

swears
17-08-2008, 07:37 PM
I think the problem is that at the end of every decade since the 50s, you've had some sort of emerging trend in youth culture that set things up for the next decade. In the late 50s you had rock and roll, late 60s hippies, late 70s punk and disco, late 80s hip hop and acid house...

And then style as a whole and the popular culture had to play catch up with these developments in the following years. You couldn't have had the laid back, globular, flared design of the 70s without the hippies and you couldn't have had the stark, brightly coloured 80s without (if not punk, then) new wave.

But there wasn't any movement like that at the end of the 90s except a new(ish) tasteful eclecticism propounded by hip ambassadors like the Beastie Boys, Beck, James Lavelle, etc...
Not really much to go on there, eh? So now we just have this mish-mash of mostly retro signifiers.

john eden
18-08-2008, 11:46 AM
http://history-is-made-at-night.blogspot.com/2008/08/old-folks-talkin.html

As I hurtle towards my 40s I am increasingly find it difficult to get worked up about stuff like this.

It's slightly annoying when people suddenly get into things you like and are all over it (without actually contributing something) and then tell you it's "over" a few months later.

And I hate all that aloof non-commital apolitical schtick too. But that is the prevailing culture, not a subculture.

But it's all a bit of a caricature. One thing which is good about hipsterism is that at least people are paying attention to "culture". In their desperate attempts to out-do each other there is scope for innovation.

We don't have to like it or not like it.

In fact, having an opinion on everything is quite hipsterish.

IdleRich
18-08-2008, 02:44 PM
"Furthermore, I think the very fact, actually, that nobody is really shaping-up to defend hipsters (although, at this point, given the hegemony of the anti-hipster posture, especially amongst hipsters themselves, I find myself suddenly tempted to, and think perhaps there may be even be merit in it) suggests the debate isn't worth all that much."
Well, nobody every identifies themself as a hipster (even though they can identify plenty of other people who are) so I guess it is an entirely perjorative term. There is a sense that because of this you can use the term hipster as a kind of repository for anything negative you care to say about your almost-peers without ever having to worry about whether what you are saying applies to you in some way or worry whether anyone will be offended. It's kind of like the thing about satire being a mirror wherein you see everyone except yourself reflected.
Momus did stick up for hipsters but doesn't claim to be one, K-Punk disagrees with him and presumably doesn't even entertain the idea that some might describe him in that way - although I have a feeling that some might? Or am I wrong with that? Are there different kinds of hipsters?

scarboi
18-08-2008, 02:48 PM
Well, I claim to be a hipster, whether you would recognize me as one by sight remains a question though.

I wrote a short little hipster confessional on my site.

http://patternloader.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/hipster-ruminations-pt-1/

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

IdleRich
18-08-2008, 03:35 PM
"Well, I claim to be a hipster, whether you would recognize me as one by sight remains a question though."
OK - that undermines everything I said. Or maybe not quite given that you describe your hipsterdom (on the blog at least) with such ambivalence and make sure to define in exactly what way and to what extent you are a hipster:


"Well I am a hipster, in that I am an early adopter of culture and music, in that I am a novice bedroom DJ, in that I place a great amount of worth in subcultural minutiae.
Feel free to hate me, Iím not exactly enjoying being a hipster."
Seems to me that the description above wouldn't entirely coincide with a description of the characters in the adbusters piece although I can't necessarily say why (except for the self-identification) - maybe to me the adbusters thing implies a certain unpleasant brashness that is entirely lacking from your blog. Maybe, as I just asked, there are different types of hipsters. Any thoughts on that?

scarboi
18-08-2008, 03:49 PM
Well just like any subcultural niche, particularly one that is as marketed to as heavily as mine (or ours) I think hipsters definitely can be split into further subgroups.

Arguably techno hipsters are a different breed than indie rock hipsters, but people like Matthew Dear would be partially in both camps.

I'm a kind of scuzzy looking man in my mid-twenties, with facial hair and pseudo military looking clothes so I think I qualify for the look and the uniform.

(I wear a lot of A Kurtz and designer skate clothes, if that helps).

I DJ dubstep, techno and house and recently a little disco, so I definitely think that qualifies. But maybe this is all just a description of my micro micro niche.

But yeah, I think I'm a little more self aware and less flashy than your average Williamsburg type, maybe just because I'm from the Midwest.

Mr. Tea
18-08-2008, 03:56 PM
Is it just me, or is there a certain parallel between the hipster and the nerd? Both groups stereotypically have an anally-retentive attention to detail, usually with regards to things other people couldn't give a toss about and have often not even heard of; a desire to stay ahead of the game in terms of current developments, be it in a musical micro-scene or internet culture and technology (coupled, paradoxically, with an obsession with all things retro) and, as people have mentioned, the fact that people who would be described by others as a hipster/nerd usually do not identify themselves as such. In fact, anyone who calls themselves a nerd is probably a hipster trying to appropriate nerd culture or 'geek chic' (the dorky rectangular glasses, woolen cardigan, tweed jacket...), which seems to be a whole look by itself these days.

Mr. Tea
18-08-2008, 03:58 PM
I'm a kind of scuzzy looking man in my mid-twenties, with facial hair and pseudo military looking clothes so I think I qualify for the look and the uniform.

(I wear a lot of A Kurtz and designer skate clothes, if that helps).

I DJ dubstep, techno and house and recently a little disco, so I definitely think that qualifies. But maybe this is all just a description of my micro micro niche.


Don't forget the forum avatar taken from an anime film. ;)

IdleRich
18-08-2008, 04:02 PM
"Arguably techno hipsters are a different breed than indie rock hipsters, but people like Matthew Dear would be partially in both camps"
I think that I meant something other than the different types of music that people might listen to though - what I mean is that if, as you suggest and I would tend to agree, some defining features of hipsterdom are being "an early adopter of culture and music" (or at least, I would say, being aware of things early but often being too cool to adopt them) and placing "a great amount of worth in subcultural minutiae" then that description could definitely apply to K-Punk as well as the new-rave kids of Hoxton, but from that common basis they seem to continue in very different directions.

scarboi
18-08-2008, 04:04 PM
"Don't forget the forum avatar taken from an anime film."


Right, and I prefer "geek chic".

I'm not technically proficent enough to be a nerd.

That seems to imply a certain level of abstract/mathematical intelligence that I'm just not capable of, I'm word-smart not programmer smart.

Mr. Tea
18-08-2008, 04:09 PM
Ah, well then there's the difference between nerds and geeks, which I've never actually understood myself. Is there a meaningful difference between the terms? How do you differentiate between people who attend Star Trek conventions and people who can quote entire Kevin Smith movies?

scarboi
18-08-2008, 04:12 PM
I think the difference between K-Punk and our increasingly stereotypical young 20 something from a trendy area in London/New York/Paris/Berlin/LA is that we trade heavily in the cultural signs and signifiers of cool, while he analyzes from a distance. Its the process of constantly keeping the fashionable at arms reach, cherry picking only the most hyper fashionable that gives a hipster power.

It also tends to make the majority of us look and act ridiculously a large percentage of the time.

CHAOTROPIC
18-08-2008, 04:13 PM
Is it just me, or is there a certain parallel between the hipster and the nerd? Both groups stereotypically have an anally-retentive attention to detail, usually with regards to things other people couldn't give a toss about and have often not even heard of; a desire to stay ahead of the game in terms of current developments, be it in a musical micro-scene or internet culture and technology (coupled, paradoxically, with an obsession with all things retro) and, as people have mentioned, the fact that people who would be described by others as a hipster/nerd usually do not identify themselves as such. In fact, anyone who calls themselves a nerd is probably a hipster trying to appropriate nerd culture or 'geek chic' (the dorky rectangular glasses, woolen cardigan, tweed jacket...), which seems to be a whole look by itself these days.

I think they're the opposite, really. A nerd (if I'm right in conflating 'nerd' & 'geek') doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, hiding in personal obsession at the expense of status games. It's self-conscious outsiderism. 'Hipsters', according to every definition above, are interested in subcultures principally as a status game. It's self-conscious insiderism. Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with.

Benny B
18-08-2008, 04:18 PM
Well, I claim to be a hipster, whether you would recognize me as one by sight remains a question though.

I wrote a short little hipster confessional on my site.

http://patternloader.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/hipster-ruminations-pt-1/

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I wouldn't worry or feel guilty about it, you don't sound like one of those twats that ride around on fixed gear bikes that the adbuster article was talking about.

swears
18-08-2008, 04:18 PM
The people in the adbusters piece, didn't they exist ten years ago, only they wore 70s retro clothing instead of 80s and listened to Marky Mark rather than Girl Talk?

And if you wanna take it back even further what about the retro-soul "style culture" that gripped London's clubland pre-acid house? (As described in Energy Flash, I dunno much about it)

droid
18-08-2008, 04:24 PM
Is it just me, or is there a certain parallel between the hipster and the nerd? Both groups stereotypically have an anally-retentive attention to detail, usually with regards to things other people couldn't give a toss about and have often not even heard of; a desire to stay ahead of the game in terms of current developments, be it in a musical micro-scene or internet culture and technology (coupled, paradoxically, with an obsession with all things retro) and, as people have mentioned, the fact that people who would be described by others as a hipster/nerd usually do not identify themselves as such. In fact, anyone who calls themselves a nerd is probably a hipster trying to appropriate nerd culture or 'geek chic' (the dorky rectangular glasses, woolen cardigan, tweed jacket...), which seems to be a whole look by itself these days.

Nah. Hipsters are poseurs who self consciously flit from one cultural meme to another, consuming on a superficial level in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game.

Nerds are obsessives who tend to be involved with their fields of interest at some creative level and steadfastly stick to their passions, whatever they may be, regardless of fashion - bless em.

Though there is crossover. With nerds trying to be hip, and hipsters posing as nerds, but there is a fundamental difference - Hipsters go out and party at the weekend, Nerds sit in front of a computer/sampler/whatever.

As for the whole geek/nerd thing. The difference is fully explained in my fanzine. :)

Mr. Tea
18-08-2008, 04:26 PM
I think they're the opposite, really. A nerd (if I'm right in conflating 'nerd' & 'geek') doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, hiding in personal obsession at the expense of status games. It's self-conscious outsiderism. 'Hipsters', according to every definition above, are interested in subcultures principally as a status game. It's self-conscious insiderism. Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with.

Yes, opposite in some ways, but in other ways closer than you might think. Everyone knows nerds are unfashionable, but wouldn't a truly dedicated hipster (if there is any such thing?*) take pleasure from knowing that Mr. and Mrs. Normal look at him and think "What the fuck?"? Nerds might be 'outsiders', but there is often a fierce sense of belonging, even cliquishness, within their own social groups.

*this might be worth expanding on: I suppose I'm talking about people who put a hell of a lot of effort into looking and acting like they don't give a shit about anything. And when this gets too obvious, we say someone looks like they're "trying a bit too hard", which I imagine would be a devastating put-down to any true hipster.

Slothrop
18-08-2008, 04:28 PM
Well just like any subcultural niche, particularly one that is as marketed to as heavily as mine (or ours) I think hipsters definitely can be split into further subgroups.

Arguably techno hipsters are a different breed than indie rock hipsters, but people like Matthew Dear would be partially in both camps.

I'm a kind of scuzzy looking man in my mid-twenties, with facial hair and pseudo military looking clothes so I think I qualify for the look and the uniform.

(I wear a lot of A Kurtz and designer skate clothes, if that helps).

I DJ dubstep, techno and house and recently a little disco, so I definitely think that qualifies. But maybe this is all just a description of my micro micro niche.
Hmm, I thought that this was all about the nu-rave / shoreditch twat / trucker cap / media mullet axis. It's not just about early adoption, there's a sense of decontextualization and stripping things of (their original) subcultural meanings. I've seen a few DJs at nights I'd associate with that sort of scene, and the mix of music was what you might call blogline - odds and sods of bassline, dubstep, crunk, old rave, nu rave, hyphy, garage, grime, jungle - mostly decent tunes, and all fairly obvious big anthems of their respective scenes, but the whole thing got a bit directionless after a while because the sets didn't have the context and inter-connected web of significance that you'd get from a pure jungle set or a pure grime set.

It seems kind of different from the traditional idea of white hipsters being obsessive about black / urban culture in that there doesn't seem to be the interest in the cultural nuances and the original context and in that it's a lot more eclectic and less into rarity and obscurity - most of the tunes I heard are actually ones that your mum would recognize, or at least that anyone with a cursory familiarity with the genre would consider a bit obvious.

I dunno if there is a sort of new context / new significance being stuck into the tune by hipster / scene culture or whether it's pure surface. I guess it could be interesting either way, but tbh it mostly gets on my tits. Maybe I'm going rockist, but taking a tune that's come out of some sort of urban struggle subculture and treating it as a mostly decontextualized piece of pure pop sonics for (normally fairly privileged, mostly white suburban) fashionistas makes me uneasy.

scarboi
18-08-2008, 04:28 PM
I wouldn't worry or feel guilty about it, you don't sound like one of those twats that ride around on fixed gear bikes that the adbuster article was talking about.

I was out on Saturday and a couple of guys had left their bikes unlocked, they were brand new identical 300 dollar single speeds just sitting there.

I've never been more tempted to rob someone in my life before.


I might not be one of those twats, but I hang out with them. My friends listen to Girl Talk, and they went down to the Pitchfork festival this year.

I probably exist somewhere in the geek<--->hipster spectrum.

IdleRich
18-08-2008, 04:28 PM
"Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with."
I was waiting to see if anyone would mention "realness" as it seems that usually one of the main things people define hipsters by is a lack of it relative to the purer and more genuine true fans. Surprised that idea took so long to pop up here to be honest. I think you're definitely right to use the scare-quotes as much as possible though - how does one define "realness" and, even if you can, how do you extend that to telling which people are real and which aren't?

scarboi
18-08-2008, 04:36 PM
I saw a DJ called LA Riots recently, it was the sort of French electro mixed with a little urban flavor (baile, juke, Baltimore club, etc.)
that seems to be really popular now in Chicago and other cities in the Midwest.

It takes some kind of involvement to at least be aware of this music, you can't just cookie cut Diplo sets mixed with Justice.

But I doubt he's as deeply involved in the music's heritage as someone like Osunlade is with house.

Mr. Tea
18-08-2008, 04:37 PM
Bit of a tangent, but what's the attraction of these single-speed bikes (beyond "cool people have them")? I seem to remember there was a thread about them on here a while back, can't be arsed to look for it now.

Edit: ahh, so it's a bit like a BMX?

scarboi
18-08-2008, 04:42 PM
http://www.duttyartz.com/2008/babel-dancing-in-tongues/

Matt Shadetek on the ethics of being a Shanty House DJ (don't play lyrics you don't understand basically).

The following discussion in the comments section covers a lot of the "realness" debate, I think they used to refer to it is as "soul".


(As an aside, single speed bikes are the best for trick riding, besides its the first kind of bike I ever owned, I used to love that thing)

IdleRich
18-08-2008, 04:48 PM
"But I doubt he's as deeply involved in the music's heritage as someone like Osunlade is with house."
Well, presumably if you have one dj who has dedicated his life to one type of music and compare him to someone who has dedicated the same amount of time to being a more eclectic dj then the first will know more about his music than the second dj will know about any given one of his musics - but isn't that merely an argument against eclecticism of any sort rather than hipster dj-ing? Or do you have a reason beyond the eclecticism for suspecting that the dj wasn't as involved as he might have been with each given style? I think that this is the realness argument isn't it?

scarboi
18-08-2008, 04:53 PM
The music was fun, it seemed very influenced by rock's sonic legacy (very trebly), and seemed a little disposable.

But I think that history has proven that what seems like disposable music can often outlast the music that has "worthy" qualities.

I think people will still be dancing to Little Jon in 25 years, long after Osunlade has become just a footnote in the history of house.


The only thing that really bothers me about this style of DJing is that it caters primarily to coke heads, and I hate that shit with a passion.

josef k.
18-08-2008, 05:55 PM
I think they're the opposite, really. A nerd (if I'm right in conflating 'nerd' & 'geek') doesn't give a shit about what people think about him, hiding in personal obsession at the expense of status games. It's self-conscious outsiderism. 'Hipsters', according to every definition above, are interested in subcultures principally as a status game. It's self-conscious insiderism. Their very LACK of obsession, of real personal engagement, is their main characteristic & seems to be the principal argument the self-proclaimed 'real' give against their 'right' to engage with the subcultures they toy with.

One area where this division break downs is in murky grey area between hipsters and political intellectuals. Both are equally concerned with manipulating codes, both are intent on effect, appearance, show and tell. The one wants to be seen, the other wants to be heard. In a sense, nobody cares more about status games than intellectuals, upon which they depend absolutely.

The secret link between k-punk and hipsters is here, I think. The hipster/geek division could be easily mapped into academia - with geeks being the kinds of scholars who obsessively investigate, I don't know, medieval marriage rituals or whatever, whereas hipsters being the kinds of figures who feel disposed to pontificate on every matter under the sun, presently going around, whether they know that much about it or not. Echoing your comment, I'd say k-punk - and the Adbusters guy as well - is interested in hipsters, quoi topic, precisely as a status game.


I think the difference between K-Punk and our increasingly stereotypical young 20 something from a trendy area in London/New York/Paris/Berlin/LA is that we trade heavily in the cultural signs and signifiers of cool, while he analyzes from a distance. Its the process of constantly keeping the fashionable at arms reach, cherry picking only the most hyper fashionable that gives a hipster power.

But - in this semiotic space where we find ourselves - is not analysis itself a form of semiotic trading? More to the point, whatever else k-punk is, he clearly isn't distanced; quite the contrary, he is consistently very polemical, very judgemental, and, ironically, very consumer-friendly; decreeing this or that cool, this or that not cool. At bottom, he rates, no?

I think this is a very good quote:


Nah. Hipsters are poseurs who self consciously flit from one cultural meme to another, consuming on a superficial level in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game.

I think, first of all, on some level we are all doing this - I mean, engaging in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game. Different games, maybe, but games nonetheless. I don't think this trait could be confined to one subgroup, be it hipsters, or otherwise... and I also think that what the figure of the hipster often serves as is a convenient way for people to dissociate themselves (and, in cases where this applies) their audiences, from these games. But speaking for myself, I don't want to be dissociated from that.

mos dan
18-08-2008, 06:14 PM
The people in the adbusters piece, didn't they exist ten years ago, only they wore 70s retro clothing instead of 80s and listened to Marky Mark rather than Girl Talk?

And if you wanna take it back even further what about the retro-soul "style culture" that gripped London's clubland pre-acid house? (As described in Energy Flash, I dunno much about it)

this is my prevailing feeling from the whole (quite interesting) debate: that we've found a new name for an age-old phenomenon (i bet oscar wilde was a twat).

basically you've always had a large middle bit in the venn diagram that unites 'fashion people' (in one circle) and 'twats' (in another).

these people are now more prominent than they were, because the greater atomisation of actual counter or sub cultural movements means it's harder for the media to spot the real thing. ironically, hipsters themselves are quite capable of keeping up with the latest 'real thing'.

i could go on about this for ages but i might just leave it at that for now.

slim jenkins
18-08-2008, 06:28 PM
Interesting thread that I'm only half-interested in now that I'm an ageing hipster who no longer gives much of a toss about what The Kids are doing...

Where's Harry 'The Hipster' Gibson in all this? :D

When hipsters of old were mooching about in jazz dives they weren't plastered all over accessible media - of course. Now, typically, they're another dot of info/entertainment on the Big Screen. I read that those kids are 'hipsters'? Mmm. The classic definitions do mutate, don't they? Sounds as meaningful as labelling something 'cool' to me.

To be 'hip' is an antiquated term - obviously - but once meant being 'in the know', above and beyond mainstream culture to the point of refusing all labels slapped on by journos hungry for a 'beatnik' story. Perhaps these kids feel likewise. Or perhaps they're as shallow as a lot of you seem to think. I wouldn't know. I only go to bars where there are DJs playing old black music (think back past Jazz-Funk, kids).

Hipsters knew where they were at, if not where they were going, and recognised another by reading subtle signs. I suppose, like all subcultures now, these scenes are simply unable to thrive untainted by irony and self-conscious 'cool' because someone's always aiming a camera at them.

droid
18-08-2008, 07:12 PM
I think, first of all, on some level we are all doing this - I mean, engaging in a desperate attempt to appear ahead of the game. Different games, maybe, but games nonetheless. I don't think this trait could be confined to one subgroup, be it hipsters, or otherwise... and I also think that what the figure of the hipster often serves as is a convenient way for people to dissociate themselves (and, in cases where this applies) their audiences, from these games. But speaking for myself, I don't want to be dissociated from that.

Are we? I agree absolutely that this isnt something confined to one subgroup, but image of the archetypical hipster is of one for whom this is the be all and end all.

Id consider myself to be of the nerd/obsessive/borderline aspergers ;) ilk myself, and my interactions with art/music have always been about being possessed by the media, unable to resist the urge to investigate/collect/analyse regardless of the social/image consequences, wheras the hipster approach is all about possessing the media. Picking and choosing your likes and dislikes based on whatever happens to be the current micro trend, whilst safely tucked away behind a veil of ironic distance.

Of course, the ultimate anti-hipster/hipster stance is automatic disdain of everything new and trendy, and theres a million permutations inbetween...

I do think the hipster hate thing is a bit OTT though. Most of them are just kids and will grow out of it. :D

IdleRich
18-08-2008, 07:50 PM
"wheras the hipster approach is all about possessing the media. Picking and choosing your likes and dislikes based on whatever happens to be the current micro trend, whilst safely tucked away behind a veil of ironic distance."
But how do you know who is doing this and who is into it for "real"?

Anyway, agreed on this bit:


"I also think that what the figure of the hipster often serves as is a convenient way for people to dissociate themselves (and, in cases where this applies) their audiences, from these games"
I think that this is what I was trying to get at with this bit:


"There is a sense that because of this you can use the term hipster as a kind of repository for anything negative you care to say about your almost-peers without ever having to worry about whether what you are saying applies to you in some way"

STN
18-08-2008, 08:12 PM
I am a nerd with (some) social skills. This, I believe, makes me a hipster (possibly a low-level one).

Mr. Tea
18-08-2008, 08:14 PM
I think that this is what I was trying to get at with this bit:

Heh, remember the Shoreditch Twat, and how it thrived on taking the piss out of 98% of the people that read it? Though not you or me, of course. ;)

droid
18-08-2008, 08:23 PM
But how do you know who is doing this and who is into it for "real"?


By talking to them? ;)

josef k.
18-08-2008, 09:16 PM
The image of the archetypical hipster is of one for whom this is the be all and end all... Picking and choosing your likes and dislikes based on whatever happens to be the current micro trend, whilst safely tucked away behind a veil of ironic distance.

To what extent does this image conform with reality, though - any reality? More generally, how much reality do the imaginary archetypes ever really have?

What I question, in short, is precisely this image. I think it's a smokescreen of dubious substance, as archetypes tend to be. Furthermore, I contend that its main function consists in allowing one to say "Whereas they consume fakely, I consume authentically." Games, upon games, upon games...

mms
18-08-2008, 09:34 PM
To what extent does this image conform with reality, though - any reality? More generally, how much reality do the imaginary archetypes ever really have?

What I question, in short, is precisely this image. I think it's a smokescreen of dubious substance, as archetypes tend to be. Furthermore, I contend that its main function consists in allowing one to say "Whereas they consume fakely, I consume authentically." Games, upon games, upon games...

it's not about fake vs authentic consumption, it's about surface consumption, vs engagement. championing, working with, critiquing, supporting etc. That has nothing to do with games, just supporting something whether it's popular or not.
You just have to look at the 5 minute fashion for grime, to see that it's not just a myth.

droid
18-08-2008, 09:49 PM
it's not about fake vs authentic consumption, it's about surface consumption, vs engagement. championing, working with, critiquing, supporting etc. That has nothing to do with games, just supporting something whether it's popular or not.
You just have to look at the 5 minute fashion for grime, to see that it's not just a myth.

Absolutely.

Its only a game if you're playing.

tryptych
18-08-2008, 09:59 PM
Bit of a tangent, but what's the attraction of these single-speed bikes (beyond "cool people have them")? I seem to remember there was a thread about them on here a while back, can't be arsed to look for it now.

Edit: ahh, so it's a bit like a BMX?

I know several fixed gear people who are definitely not hipsters. It's a bike nerd thing, something hipsters have got hold of via courier culture. I don't know what it's like in the states, but in London you saw couriers riding fixed gear bikes years before it was generally a "cool" thing to do.

Advantages are low maintenance and lighter weight. Enthusiasts say that it puts you more in contact and control of the bike, and I guess that it's a more, um, authentic way of riding. It's also better for your knee joints, I've been told, although I imagine that's probably relevant over longish distances.

A large percentage of the bikes you see in Shoreditch are single speed rather than fixed - cool factor without the hassle of learning to ride a fixed gear bike. Hence the need for brakes, which it seems is also true in the US and is confusing the journalist.

josef k.
18-08-2008, 10:07 PM
it's not about fake vs authentic consumption, it's about surface consumption, vs engagement. championing, working with, critiquing, supporting etc. That has nothing to do with games, just supporting something whether it's popular or not.
You just have to look at the 5 minute fashion for grime, to see that it's not just a myth.

I dunno... It seems to me that you have a surface/depth dichotomy going on here which although, okay, is not quite authentic/fake, is at least in some ways similar. And I think the idea of "just supporting something whether it's popular or not" mystifies things... it's not about popularity per se, its about the cultural signifiers attached to various cultural products. I don't you can escape from this, although you might want to.

Some people liked grime for five minutes, others support it and champion it... but so what either way? Some people only like cake a little, others like it a lot, indeed, may actually bake cake. The latter groups in both cases, I'd wager, know a lot more about the one or the other, but that's about it; just because of this fact, they don't earn any extra prestige. Which is what I take to be your tacit argument here - that people who are engaged, critiquing, supporting, etc - do indeed merit some extra cultural prestige, held-up against the superficial nihilism plain to see in the Hipster. Which is why I say its a game, and a strategy.


Absolutely.

Its only a game if you're playing.

But is the idea: "I am not playing the game" not in some sense the ultimate game?

droid
18-08-2008, 10:48 PM
But is the idea: "I am not playing the game" not in some sense the ultimate game?

This guy must be the ultimate game player so:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/images/2006/02/10/tj_tony_blackburn_470x353.jpg

john eden
18-08-2008, 11:07 PM
Some people liked grime for five minutes, others support it and champion it... but so what either way? Some people only like cake a little, others like it a lot, indeed, may actually bake cake.


But the (stereotype of the) hipster approach is more than not/liking cake. It is all about discovering cake first and then getting into lasagne and then getting into fasting and then getting into pork pies, all the while slagging off people who are still into cake, lasagne, fasting or whatever.

It seems to me that the likes can only exist alongside dismissals of what other, less hip, people like.

The stuff that got wrote about grime when everyone became enthusiastic about funky is a case in point.

The hipster/nerd dichotomy is therefore more about surface vs depth as has been said upthread.

I don't think authenticity is the correct word - I've been into reggae on and off for 20 years now and seriously for about 15. But I still wouldn't say I was an "authentic" fan, just someone who has got into it more than the level of t-shirts, namedropping and being seen at the right places. I am, if I am frank, a one trick pony - ;) I even relate grime pretty much to my knowledge of reggae MC culture instead of some idea of cutting edge "newness".

Having said that we are back to the eternal Dissensus theme of "how important is music anyway?". If people want to go out and dance about and nod their heads and wear mad clothes and cop off with people then that is all for the good and probably better for people in their twenties than sitting at home wondering about colonialism and mp3 culture.

swears
19-08-2008, 12:06 AM
http://www.viceland.com/int/v12n5/htdocs/the_vice/2.gif

CHAOTROPIC
19-08-2008, 02:27 AM
Fundamentally, hipsters are people who look interesting, but aren't. So they waste everyone's time. Which makes them naff.

IdleRich
19-08-2008, 09:28 AM
"I dunno... It seems to me that you have a surface/depth dichotomy going on here which although, okay, is not quite authentic/fake, is at least in some ways similar."
I think you're right. However, the fact that realness/fakeness is so often mentioned in this context and is something that most intuitively relate to these people (vs themselves) suggests to me that there is at least something in this idea. Even if it is hard to put your finger on who is real or what exactly makes someone fake it seems plausible to me that there can exist such a thing as this fakeness or lack of depth and that it is an undesirable trait.


"It seems to me that the likes can only exist alongside dismissals of what other, less hip, people like."
Seems important as well. Basically, I get the impression that hipsterism is seen as not just unpleasant because of its perceived shallowness but also because it is nakedly competitive and thus unfriendly.

scarboi
19-08-2008, 10:23 AM
But - in this semiotic space where we find ourselves - is not analysis itself a form of semiotic trading? More to the point, whatever else k-punk is, he clearly isn't distanced; quite the contrary, he is consistently very polemical, very judgemental, and, ironically, very consumer-friendly; decreeing this or that cool, this or that not cool. At bottom, he rates, no?

Sorry, would have gotten back to you earlier but I had to work.

He does rate, but I doubt that he internalizes, or adopts the styles he rates.


The language we use to describe this kind of behavior is perhaps a little vague, but his status game seems to exist in a different realm of experience than the status games played by the hipsters he analyzes.

I'm not saying he is aloof, but the world of a philosophy professor usually only intersects with the world of the youth in the teacher<->student exchange.

Hipster behavior is intensely dependent on peer to peer exchange and analysis of subcultural values.

And an aside to John, I was one of the people writing those things about grime.

What I like most about funky at the moment is how much it reminds me of early grime, but also how much it seems to be an adult take on a similar sound palette.

Funky MCs aren't chatting endless gun bars looking for reloads, they aren't killing each other over bullshit. No one has gotten murdered over making Funky House yet.

You can't say the same thing about grime.

Pestario
19-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Fundamentally, hipsters are people who look interesting, but aren't. So they waste everyone's time. Which makes them naff.

yes

mms
19-08-2008, 11:49 AM
Basically, I get the impression that hipsterism is seen as not just unpleasant because of its perceived shallowness but also because it is nakedly competitive and thus unfriendly.

now that seems like something very true to me.

josef k.
19-08-2008, 05:26 PM
Fundamentally, hipsters are people who look interesting, but aren't. So they waste everyone's time. Which makes them naff.

But is this not this privileging of the culturally interesting over other possible human or aesthetic concerns a) the very critique which is being made of hipsters and b) therefore highly suspect and open to question, on the grounds I've suggested.


But the (stereotype of the) hipster approach is more than not/liking cake. It is all about discovering cake first and then getting into lasagne and then getting into fasting and then getting into pork pies, all the while slagging off people who are still into cake, lasagne, fasting or whatever.

It seems to me that the likes can only exist alongside dismissals of what other, less hip, people like.


Yet the irony is that the critique of hipster ultimately curls right back into exactly the same place, only with the order of terms slightly rejigged... now the idea is that people have not spent long enough with cake, or whatever...

Let me put it like this: What if it was equally true that nerd, or geeks, people deeply committed to engaging, critiquing, etc, can only exist alongside the dismissals of shallow hipster proclivity? I submit that either this is indeed the case, in which case we are indeed in exactly the same formal space as the hipsterism which is being criticized, as I've suggested, or else it is not the case - in which case hipsters are fundamentally irrelevent as a cultural issue.

Finally, I wonder whether people would agree or disagree with the following line: The image and role of the hipster - I mean, the hipster as a more-or-less imaginary figure who exists only really, or at least most fully, in Discourse World as a figure eternally being criticized, denigrated, and so on - is more interesting as a topic then actual hipsters, if they indeed exist (and I claim they do not).

The question I'm personally really interested in is: Why does it seems as if so much of contemporary culture - especially that which cannot stop declaring its disdain for hipsters - nonetheless feels that it has define itself against hipsters, and what hipsters represent?

mos dan
19-08-2008, 05:47 PM
Funky MCs aren't chatting endless gun bars looking for reloads, they aren't killing each other over bullshit. No one has gotten murdered over making Funky House yet.

You can't say the same thing about grime.

i can and i will. are you dotun adebayo (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1519825.ece) in disguise?

Slothrop
19-08-2008, 06:22 PM
Let me put it like this: What if it was equally true that nerd, or geeks, people deeply committed to engaging, critiquing, etc, can only exist alongside the dismissals of shallow hipster proclivity? I submit that either this is indeed the case, in which case we are indeed in exactly the same formal space as the hipsterism which is being criticized, as I've suggested, or else it is not the case - in which case hipsters are fundamentally irrelevent as a cultural issue.
This "ah but isn't it the same thing on some level" approach seems like a rather lazy and reductive viewpoint, though. Surely there's more to it than being in the same 'formal space'.

And just because people are capable of being deeply engaed with a given form of music and culture without needing to dismiss people who aren't (which I'd say is true), why would that make hipsterism irrelevant as a cultural issue? Can't we aspire to an analysis of social / cultural trends that is independent of where we stand ourselves, or at least which isn't a neccessary part of how we engage with culture ourselves?

josef k.
19-08-2008, 07:13 PM
This "ah but isn't it the same thing on some level" approach seems like a rather lazy and reductive viewpoint, though. Surely there's more to it than being in the same 'formal space'.

Perhaps I could clarify. At heart, what I'm saying is that the compulsion to compare and contrast oneself against hipsters, in a more-or-less tacit play for prestige, is "the hipster position" - whether one believes oneself to be hipster or don't. Most do not.

If you say, "I have a deep appreciation of something, whereas hipsters only have a superficial appreciation" this is a status game... the same status game which hipsters are being accused of playing.

Now, this doesn't mean that everything you do is automatically enveloped in this same hipster trap. What it means instead, I think, is:

a) No consumption - including the consumption of particular signs - is any authentic, or real, then any other kind.
b) Authenticity doesn't mean shit, and neither does depth: all signs are signs.
c) Forming judgments based upon perceived cultural status is always a bottomless pit. Let's all be indifferent!

But perhaps I am wrong about all of these.


And just because people are capable of being deeply engaed with a given form of music and culture without needing to dismiss people who aren't (which I'd say is true), why would that make hipsterism irrelevant as a cultural issue? Can't we aspire to an analysis of social / cultural trends that is independent of where we stand ourselves, or at least which isn't a neccessary part of how we engage with culture ourselves?

Good question. I'd say two things a) cultural analysis is always at the same time an engagement with cultural, and this should be acknowledged, and b) Personally, I don't think its possible to analyze anything completely dispassionately, but I think perhaps it is more or less possible, so long as we acknowledge that our viewpoints are skewed by own position and projects... Which is, now that I think about it, maybe the essence of what an independent analysis would be: this is to say, an analysis of the way our own perspectives are skewed. But perhaps this all getting rather abstract...

scarboi
19-08-2008, 07:46 PM
i can and i will. are you dotun adebayo (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1519825.ece) in disguise?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/03/ukguns.musicnews


No, I'm just one of those hipsters that abandoned grime at the first possible opportunity.

I never spent any time writing about it, buying singles at exorbitant international shipping rates, getting ridiculed by my friends for liking such blatantly awful music.

Nope, just in it for the status. So I could bring it up at parties really.

CHAOTROPIC
19-08-2008, 11:28 PM
But is this not this privileging of the culturally interesting over other possible human or aesthetic concerns a) the very critique which is being made of hipsters and b) therefore highly suspect and open to question, on the grounds I've suggested.

Aside from 'interesting', what other 'human or aesthetic concerns' are worth bothering with, in strangers? You mean, if they're fuckable? Or supa-charming? I guess. But they're still trying to buy there way into conversation, into consideration, with dirty money. Yes, mainstream consumption helps fund everyone else. Yes, I still find it irritating when I talk to someone who shows all the outward signs of similar taste, similar sensibility, only to find that they're essentially uninterested, essentially uninteresting.

I'm not obsessed with hipsters. I just wish they weren't so obsessed with me*

*not actually 'me'. 'Us'. I dunno. You're probably all hipsters :D

CHAOTROPIC
19-08-2008, 11:35 PM
& I think they're stupid & they make bad art. Relativise that :P

Mr. Tea
20-08-2008, 12:06 AM
& I think they're stupid & they make bad art. Relativise that :P

Eurgh...those little printed ultra-stylised wall decoration things you (used to) see in Spitalfields Market for adorning the studio flats of twentysomethings who work in 'meedja'. :mad:

noel emits
20-08-2008, 12:17 AM
The question I'm personally really interested in is: Why does it seems as if so much of contemporary culture - especially that which cannot stop declaring its disdain for hipsters - nonetheless feels that it has define itself against hipsters, and what hipsters represent?
I wonder if the reason that the disdain you identify is so apparent now is that the phenomenon itself, that is to say subcultural one-upmanship for it's own sake (i.e. that which defines itself entirely in relation to that which it is not, a purely negative formulation), is actually on the way out. Once the style of negation became identifiable as distinct from more general trends and generational cycles, and from the signs it had cloaked itself in, it became suddenly visible to the broader culture and critical antibodies are produced to counter what was now revealed as an imposter and an evolutionary dead end. So as not to appear pre-empted it has then by it's own logic had to decide that it is indeed no longer cool. Something like that, it's a self-generated backlash basically.

As others have said here, what has been found objectionable about attitudes of blind-hipsterism is the deception that is sometimes perceived, perhaps most acutely by those with experience and investment in the styles it apes. 'They' may appear to be regular open-minded young hep-cats as we have come to know them, but up close it is something else, or rather it is nothing at all. Blind-hipsterism, unencumbered by the need to provide anything of substance of it's own, other than negation, or perhaps at a generous reading, curation, going unidentified has been able to edge it's way vapidly to the centre of your local cultural moshpit, much as a lifeless CJD prion can turn an infected brain to mush.

Hmm, not sure I want to find myself in accord with Charlie Brooker :slanted: Did anyone notice that 'the idiots' in Nathan Barley were actually mostly portrayed as rather sympathetic characters, with Dan Aschroft coming across as a pompous ass for not wanting to join in?

http://blog.urbanbohemian.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/body_snatchers.jpg
'Jeffrey spots someone still listening to Funky in '09.'

;)

josef k.
20-08-2008, 01:11 AM
Aside from 'interesting', what other 'human or aesthetic concerns' are worth bothering with, in strangers?

I don't know. That they're sincere, perhaps? Or kind? Or honest? Or intelligent? Or challenging? Or admirable? Or wise? Or flawed? Or weak? Or vulnerable? Or nothing?

josef k.
20-08-2008, 01:14 AM
I wonder if the reason that the disdain you identify is so apparent now is that the phenomenon itself, that is to say subcultural one-upmanship for it's own sake (i.e. that which defines itself entirely in relation to that which it is not, a purely negative formulation), is actually on the way out.

I would suggest that it is clearly not on the way out, since subcultural one-upmanship continues to express itself in the form of a competitive disdain for "uninteresting" hipsters.

john eden
20-08-2008, 09:28 AM
I would suggest that it is clearly not on the way out, since subcultural one-upmanship continues to express itself in the form of a competitive disdain for "uninteresting" hipsters.

I think "cultural capital" will continue to be more and more important with Web 2.0 and all that, so you are right, it isn't going away. And incidentally, thanks for teasing all this stuff out on this thread Josef.

I think in your either/or point upthread I am really in the "hipsters are largely irrelevant" camp. Most of the stuff that gets talked on here is pretty trivial and irrelevant anyway in the final analysis... but I don't actually spend any time at all worrying about trendy twats in real life - it can be a mild diversion I guess.

Really what they do has virtually no effect on what I do. Occasionally one has to stand up for what one likes or criticise an especially hamfisted attempt at cultural one upmanship in the press or something but it doesn't really amount to very much.

Having set out my stall with reggae I've watched it come in and out of popularity over the years and seen all manner of idiocy committed in its name or in response to it.

If you ever want to know the health of the genre the easiest way is to see where it is stocked in big shops like HMV - if it's on the up it will be alongside the dance/urban stuff. If not it gets sidelined over to the "world music" section.

It can be annoying when someone who has been into the music you love for 5 minutes turns around and says it's now officially All Over, but to me that just means there will be more bargains to pick up in second hand shops.

What is more annoying is the repeated myth in the press that reggae has been moribund since the death of Bob Marley - perhaps this is a more corporate hipsterism?

Pestario
20-08-2008, 10:18 AM
perhaps hipsters are just locusts swarming from subculture to subculture in 7 years cycles. When they come just hide in your bunker with your precious crops and wait it out ;)

droid
20-08-2008, 10:29 AM
I think in your either/or point upthread I am really in the "hipsters are largely irrelevant" camp. Most of the stuff that gets talked on here is pretty trivial and irrelevant anyway in the final analysis... but I don't actually spend any time at all worrying about trendy twats in real life - it can be a mild diversion I guess.

Really what they do has virtually no effect on what I do. Occasionally one has to stand up for what one likes or criticise an especially hamfisted attempt at cultural one upmanship in the press or something but it doesn't really amount to very much.

Having set out my stall with reggae I've watched it come in and out of popularity over the years and seen all manner of idiocy committed in its name or in response to it.


You beat me to it. This is pretty much my attitude.

I obviously wouldn't spend any time in real-life worrying about them as I rarely go out, and when I do its to fairly un-hip events. I'd add that I don't spend anytime online worrying about them either. I think this is the first time Ive ever commented on the topic, and most of the bloggers I read are scene archivists who don't really discuss or care about them either.

Id argue that the hipster-as-oppositional-defining-stereotype is just as nebulous as the image of the uber-hipster stereotype itself. it certainly doesn't relate to my experience.

CHAOTROPIC
20-08-2008, 11:11 AM
Eurgh...those little printed ultra-stylised wall decoration things you (used to) see in Spitalfields Market for adorning the studio flats of twentysomethings who work in 'meedja'. :mad:

I direct the esteeped gentleman's attention to fashion student performance arthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wEQMWLaFaM.

Mr. Tea
20-08-2008, 12:00 PM
I direct the esteeped gentleman's attention to fashion student performance arthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wEQMWLaFaM.

Haha, oh my god.

Is not finished!

http://www.websnark.com/archives/vulva.jpg

...is finished.

mistersloane
20-08-2008, 12:26 PM
I direct the esteeped gentleman's attention to fashion student performance arthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wEQMWLaFaM.

Tch! Mocking the afflicted! There's a difference between, um, that and what this thread is talking about though, club kids are in a separate little 80s world of their own. Purgatory, one could call it.

CHAOTROPIC
20-08-2008, 01:12 PM
Tch! Mocking the afflicted! There's a difference between, um, that and what this thread is talking about though, club kids are in a separate little 80s world of their own. Purgatory, one could call it.

Yeah ;) But I do think there's a similarity in their imitation of artistic endeavour simply as a means of furthering a social agenda.

Of course, addressing Josef's points, this distinction implies that some people make art for other reasons, but I think they do, even if it's a matter of degree. That joker sticking pins through himself thinks he's Franko B, for example, & he thinks what he's doing has equivalent value, because his appreciation stops at the image.

Beyond the way hipsters dress & the subcultures they engage with, is the work they produce. These streams of mix-tapes, DJ sets, bands, PAs, 'performance art pieces', upwardly-mobile high-concept graffiti, photography, fashion ... innovative fucking hats. It's something Nathan Barley brought out, I think: the uncomfortableness of relentlessly productive, comfortably shallow people drowning culture in gallons of substandard, attention-grabbing shit, until everything else is swallowed up, LIKE TEARS IN A MONSOON!!! They implicate everyone who makes anything with their own competitive status-grubbing shallowness & force anyone looking for substantive culture to make impossible-to-justify fascist judgements about intangibles like intention, if all culture isn't to be flattened to the level of the image.

They're berks & they shouldn't be allowed!!! :mad:

mistersloane
20-08-2008, 02:36 PM
LIKE TEARS IN A MONSOON!!!

Beautiful image, you should do something with that.

I can't really engage too much, I feel so outside things now, and aside from being really annoyed at how rude some of the kids are in Shoreditch, it hasn't really effected me.

I do wonder about the culture of production and how much of it is, y'know, just not wanting to drown, and also people now feeling the need to participate, which must be an incredible pressure, especially for people who essentially culturally belong anyway, going back to k-punks idea of stimulating the need for comfort.

I know that my cultural production essentially mirrors that which is around me, but, y'know, it comes out all wrong - I know that I'll never be able to do anything right, and I wonder what the fear is like for people who can do things right, and how it must feel to know that you belong. I've always imagined that the inner despair would be kinda the obverse of mine.

straight
20-08-2008, 02:54 PM
Yeah ;)

Beyond the way hipsters dress & the subcultures they engage with, is the work they produce. These streams of mix-tapes, DJ sets, bands, PAs, 'performance art pieces', upwardly-mobile high-concept graffiti, photography, fashion ... innovative fucking hats. It's something Nathan Barley brought out, I think: the uncomfortableness of relentlessly productive, comfortably shallow people drowning culture in gallons of substandard, attention-grabbing shit, until everything else is swallowed up, LIKE TEARS IN A MONSOON!!! They implicate everyone who makes anything with their own competitive status-grubbing shallowness & force anyone looking for substantive culture to make impossible-to-justify fascist judgements about intangibles like intention, if all culture isn't to be flattened to the level of the image.

They're berks & they shouldn't be allowed!!! :mad:

This harks back to the art college thread from a few weeks ago. Also reminds me of a fair few 'freelance designer' chums of mine who tend to trundle along on the fact that pops pays the rent on their studio cum self perpetuating media nodes

mistersloane
20-08-2008, 03:22 PM
if all culture isn't to be flattened to the level of the image.
:

That's really interesting as well, culture as photoshop, nice analogy.

Shonx
24-08-2008, 11:20 PM
I've seen a few DJs at nights I'd associate with that sort of scene, and the mix of music was what you might call blogline - odds and sods of bassline, dubstep, crunk, old rave, nu rave, hyphy, garage, grime, jungle - mostly decent tunes, and all fairly obvious big anthems of their respective scenes, but the whole thing got a bit directionless after a while because the sets didn't have the context and inter-connected web of significance that you'd get from a pure jungle set or a pure grime set.

Does seem that taking various tunes from different genres is actually closer in some ways to original balearic in a way though, rather than the compartmentalisation that has come in since, and I quite welcomed that in sets by Sinden, Switch, Diplo, etc. We're really talking about this in a more superficial way though aren't we, and it's almost impossible to tell in someone else what's desperately trying to be cool and what's a wide-ranging interest in different styles.

I mean to be honest isn't there just as much superficiality in those sticking with one genre and buying the latest big tunes and then not playing them as soon as they're a couple of months past freshness.

mms
25-08-2008, 05:16 PM
Does seem that taking various tunes from different genres is actually closer in some ways to original balearic in a way though, rather than the compartmentalisation that has come in since, and I quite welcomed that in sets by Sinden, Switch, Diplo, etc. We're really talking about this in a more superficial way though aren't we, and it's almost impossible to tell in someone else what's desperately trying to be cool and what's a wide-ranging interest in different styles.

I mean to be honest isn't there just as much superficiality in those sticking with one genre and buying the latest big tunes and then not playing them as soon as they're a couple of months past freshness.

don't think that has alot to do with baleric, but there was and is a time when things get boring in genres and people mix musical genres that are often compartmentalized together, often before there is enough good music in that genre to warrant playing a whole night of it.
i personally just try and play good records old and new when i dj but i always have, sometimes more or less.

Buick6
26-08-2008, 12:31 AM
The thing with hipsters comopared to the beatniks is that 'hipsters' have evolved via the internerd and the suburbs in that a fuckhead can be a jaded know-it-all without having left their environment of 'comfort'...The beatniks were inspired by leaving their fucking nest, the hipsters are inspired by living in it!

so lick my shite! :p

DJ PIMP
26-08-2008, 03:22 AM
<brightly>From Wikipedia...

Hip, hipster and hippie

During the jive era of the late 1930s and early 1940s, African-Americans began to use the term hip to mean "sophisticated, fashionable and fully up-to-date".[1] The term hipster was coined by Harry Gibson in 1940, and was used during the 1940s and 1950s to describe jazz performers. The word evolved to describe Bohemian counterculture. Like the word hipster, the word hippie is jazz slang from the 1940s, and one of the first recorded usages of the word hippie was in a radio show on November 13, 1945, in which Stan Kenton called Harry Gibson "Hippie".[3] This use was likely playing off Gibson's nickname, "Harry the Hipster."[4]

In Greenwich Village, New York City, young counterculture advocates were named hips because they were considered "in the know" or "cool", as opposed to being square. In a 1961 essay, Kenneth Rexroth used both the terms hipster and hippies to refer to young people participating in African American or Beatnik nightlife.[5]

In 1963, the Orlons, an African-American singing group from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania released the soul dance song "South Street", which included the lyrics "Where do all the hippies meet? South Street, South Street...The hippest street in town".[6][7] Some transcriptions read "Where do all the hippist (sic) meet?"[8] Nevertheless, since many heard it as "hippies", that use was promoted. "The Hippies" was also the name of a mixed African American and white soul singing group on the Orlons' record label, Cameo-Parkway.[9] Reminiscing about late 1940s Harlem in his 1964 autobiography, Malcolm X referred to the word hippy as a term African Americans used to describe a specific type of white man who "acted more Negro than Negroes."[10]

A hip person, a hipster, or a hippie, then, is someone who is aware of the latest developments or trends, as in "I'm hip to that." It was also often used as a verb in the early days, such as in the phrase, "I'm hipping you, man," which meant, "I'm making you wise." [11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie_(etymology)

Mr. Tea
26-08-2008, 04:44 PM
It's also cognate with 'hep', as in 'hep cat'.

I'm in a pretty hep group* myself.



*high energy physics (research) group

Agent Nucleus
27-08-2008, 07:12 AM
as of, say, 1996: irrelevance

I guess the style lived up to its name in the early nineties. I don't know. At this point it's kind of pathetic. I have nothing against them, I mean I know a few and they tend to be kind of empty-headed, and I honestly believe they have no souls, they creep me out, but they are more or less innocuous. However when I see one on the street I can't help laughing.

Shonx
27-08-2008, 10:37 AM
The thing with hipsters comopared to the beatniks is that 'hipsters' have evolved via the internerd and the suburbs in that a fuckhead can be a jaded know-it-all without having left their environment of 'comfort'...The beatniks were inspired by leaving their fucking nest, the hipsters are inspired by living in it!

so lick my shite! :p

Isn't it mostly a combination of both nowadays - I mean presumably you'd need to attend clubs and events to understand the dynamics of a night as well as scouring the net for new tunes. Even before I had the net, it was obvious from going out to nights that there were a lot of jaded know it alls who did the equivalent of chatting shit on the net but, y'know, in old skool analogue style - in pubs, clubs and peoples' houses.


don't think that has alot to do with baleric, but there was and is a time when things get boring in genres and people mix musical genres that are often compartmentalized together, often before there is enough good music in that genre to warrant playing a whole night of it.
i personally just try and play good records old and new when i dj but i always have, sometimes more or less.

Yeah same, I think dj's whose style relies on creating a very narrow microgenre for themselves not only limit the breadth of tunes they can choose but make for very predictable and tedious sets (although plenty seem to think this is a good thing for some reason).

From the wiki article on Balearic Beat -

"The style of Balearic Beat is described by its inventors, as opposed to its UK followers, as the ability for the DJ to play across a broad range of styles, from early minimal new beat to the first extended remixes of pop-songs, making Balearic DJ sets those that tend to have the sharpest turns of musical direction. While the public outside Ibiza generally describes Balearic Beat as a music style, the island based community regard Balearic Beat as a non-style or a healthy disrespect to style conformity and a challenge to the norm. Its a freestyle expression that seamlessly binds sporadic vinyl inspiration through technical flair on the turntables."

Particularly liked this bit which seems to ring true far

"Today, due to segregation in the electronic dance music few promoters few DJ's dare to stretch their spectrum of styles that far in fear of losing identity and clients."

If style and identity are based entirely on what they buy then it's no wonder they're a bit insecure about it.

Slothrop
27-08-2008, 02:14 PM
"The style of Balearic Beat is described by its inventors, as opposed to its UK followers, as the ability for the DJ to play across a broad range of styles, from early minimal new beat to the first extended remixes of pop-songs, making Balearic DJ sets those that tend to have the sharpest turns of musical direction. While the public outside Ibiza generally describes Balearic Beat as a music style, the island based community regard Balearic Beat as a non-style or a healthy disrespect to style conformity and a challenge to the norm. Its a freestyle expression that seamlessly binds sporadic vinyl inspiration through technical flair on the turntables."
Have any really good records come out of this scene, though? Compared with UKG or jungle or techno or whatever...

Slothrop
27-08-2008, 02:49 PM
Does seem that taking various tunes from different genres is actually closer in some ways to original balearic in a way though, rather than the compartmentalisation that has come in since, and I quite welcomed that in sets by Sinden, Switch, Diplo, etc. We're really talking about this in a more superficial way though aren't we, and it's almost impossible to tell in someone else what's desperately trying to be cool and what's a wide-ranging interest in different styles.
But it's not really about deciding whether the DJ is authentic and then deciding based on that whether you liked the set - the proof of the pudding is in the eating and all that. What I don't like is a set that doesn't flow, that doesn't build up a vibe, that doesn't suprise me in any way. And that can happen when the DJ doesn't really know the genres he's mixing but just has a bunch of the most obvious anthems from each and bashes them out in no particular order, which is the sort of 'blogline' DJing style I had in mind.


I mean to be honest isn't there just as much superficiality in those sticking with one genre and buying the latest big tunes and then not playing them as soon as they're a couple of months past freshness.
Well yes, but I wouldn't advocate that either.

Shonx
27-08-2008, 02:49 PM
Have any really good records come out of this scene, though? Compared with UKG or jungle or techno or whatever...

http://whatilike-jp.blogspot.com/2007/12/balearic-beats.html

There's an article there. I don't think it was so much about tunes from the scene, more seeing what could be incorporated which I think was the important thing. I was pretty sure that hip hop and stuff like the Mondays came under that umbrella but may well have been wrong.

mos dan
03-09-2008, 11:55 AM
sorry to come so late to this party, esp when such detailed and thorough discussions have already wound up, but i was asked for my two cents, so i gave it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/03/fashion

i actually think vice is unequivocally a force for good these days.. seeing the piece on the grime youngers in this month's issue was quite significant i think. if they were true dilettantes they would have dropped that shit years ago.

mixed_biscuits
03-09-2008, 12:21 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/03/fashion

That all sounds very reasonable.

I guess that a culturally peripatetic tribe does not afford itself the time to gain expertise in discrete practices, so cannot be expected to create great art beyond patchwork quilt pastiches or enthusiastic semi-inspired skits.

The hipster is possibly a personality type: one that is motivated by finding novelty. Ability and inclination determine how deeply they might inadvertantly delve into the flavour of the minute before they feel compelled to look elsewhere.

mos dan
03-09-2008, 12:29 PM
The hipster is possibly a personality type: one that is motivated by finding novelty. Ability and inclination determine how deeply they might inadvertantly delve into the flavour of the minute before they feel compelled to look elsewhere.

i was thinking about this when i was writing the piece, and it made me think of john peel! and how he defended his practice of playing records by bands when they were brand spanking new, before abandoning them when they got big and were all over daytime radio 1. "i just get really excited by new bands" was something along the lines of what he said. and so, if (arguably) john peel is the ultimate hipster, it makes them rather more difficult to hate, does it not?

mixed_biscuits
03-09-2008, 12:35 PM
if (arguably) john peel is the ultimate hipster, it makes them rather more difficult to hate, does it not?

Absolutely!

Another way of looking at it might be that the hipster is forever searching for something that is worth the abandonment of all future searches - a hopeful, melancholic quest for a place finally to rest.

Mr. Tea
03-09-2008, 01:35 PM
Ha, that CIF article has provoked some truly Have Your Say-level bilious class hatred:



"The hipster bars and the grime scene's council estates are neighbours in London's East End Ė and Vice have long been putting on grime acts at their Shoreditch pub venue and covering them in the print magazine."

Oooh, the private shcool kids pay the council estate kids a pittance to sing and dance for them like marionettes and are thereby granted an iota of street-cred. Won't stop them getting the shit kicked out of them if they were ever to visit one of these council estates.

Wasn't Max Gogarty a hipster?


Max Gogarty: the gift that keeps on giving.

mos dan
03-09-2008, 02:07 PM
Max Gogarty: the gift that keeps on giving.

haha, poor kid, he's never gonna dance again...

i just sought out that gogarty thing again, and how funny is it that the final comment - out of 473 of the fuckers - before the mods eventually closed the comments, is from dubstepforum's own mc buffalo: http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/blog/2008/feb/14/skinsblog


Feb 14 08, 10:26pm

Buffalo widdy lockstop, brock em up fully job lot

check wide raving crew i hit dem safe seen lock down mack up

thailand ur time will come, going out to a dubstep raver, put yo fuckin hands in the air, wave em roun like u just dont care

\voice scratches like a badman

safe out

badman buffalo

Alfons
03-09-2008, 07:01 PM
my sister gave me this book for christmas last year after I kept badmouthing hipsters:

http://www.amazon.com/Hip-History-John-Leland/dp/0060528176

I didn't really like it to much, but it defined hipsters as those who are hip, in the know, know something the ordinary joe doesnt. Mentions bebop, the beatniks, bohemians, pulp writers...

Mr. Tea
03-09-2008, 08:00 PM
I didn't really like it to much, but it defined hipsters as those who are hip, in the know, know something the ordinary joe doesnt. Mentions bebop, the beatniks, bohemians, pulp writers...

Well yeah, that's what the word meant *then*...I can't imagine the guy with the ironic mullet and vintage AC/DC t-shirt sipping a 'pramen in some divey Shoreditch bar has much bebop on his iPod.

Also, the second editorial review is rather funny, infused as it is with the optimistic notion that you can get kids interested in history, literature and 'high culture' by trying to make it sound modern and 'street':


Leland will lead YAs beyond Kerouac to "Original Gangstas" Thoreau and Whitman...

"If you think about it, Shakespeare was, like, the Lethal Bizzle of his day..." :cool:

Alfons
04-09-2008, 12:32 AM
Well yeah, that's what the word meant *then*...I can't imagine the guy with the ironic mullet and vintage AC/DC t-shirt sipping a 'pramen in some divey Shoreditch bar has much bebop on his iPod.

Also, the second editorial review is rather funny, infused as it is with the optimistic notion that you can get kids interested in history, literature and 'high culture' by trying to make it sound modern and 'street':

"If you think about it, Shakespeare was, like, the Lethal Bizzle of his day..." :cool:

ha ha true!

the reader reviews are a funny read to


My friends always told me I was not hip, uncool, etc... So I decided to read this book to learn what one means by the term hip.


Is there a difference between the "hip" of those times, being in the knowledge of some subculture and the hipsters of today. Were hipsters of the bebop or beat circles actively engaging with the culture etc.

Mr. Tea
04-09-2008, 01:00 AM
I love this:


My friends always told me I was not hip, uncool, etc... So I decided to read this book to learn what one means by the term hip.

hip (adj.) the exact opposite of what you are if you decide to read a book about what one means by the term 'hip'

CHAOTROPIC
04-09-2008, 01:05 AM
Another way of looking at it might be that the hipster is forever searching for something that is worth the abandonment of all future searches - a hopeful, melancholic quest for a place finally to rest.

That's beautifully put. I'm like that.

But I don't think hipsters are. They're just forever searching for credibility. & status. & laffs. Nothing romantic or melancholic about that. Great art doesn't emerge from that kindof quest, just great tossers.

mixed_biscuits
04-09-2008, 08:59 AM
lol

zhao
04-09-2008, 10:59 AM
after avoiding and then finally giving in and reading (the majority of) this thread, at last i have found/come up with a term which describes me (and some others here i imagine) well enough for all purposes:

geekster.

thank you dissensus! :D

zhao
04-09-2008, 11:36 AM
and as such, i am smarter, better looking, more stylish/interesting/fuckable/authentic/genuine /creative/worthy of your attention/admiration than those that belong in either camp. :p

OK all (real ego-mania disguised as) kidding aside, Hal Foster to thread!




... (Pluralism) is a situation that grants a kind of equivalence; art of many sorts is made to seem more or less equal - equally (un)important. Art becomes an arena not of dialectical dialogue but of vested interests, of licensed sects: in lieu of culture we have cults. The result is an eccentricity that leads, in art as in politics, to a new conformity: pluralism as an institution.

Posed as a freedom to choose, the pluralist position plays right into the ideology of the "free market" ... Indeed, the freedom of art today is announced by some as the "end of ideology" and the "end of the dialectic"- an announcement that, however naive, makes this ideology all the more devious. In effect, the demise of one style (e.e., minimalism) or one type of criticism (e.e., formalism) or even one period (e.g., late modernism) tends to be mistaken for the death of all such formulations. Such a death is vital to pluralism: for with ideology and dialectic somehow slain, we enter a state that seems like grace, a state that allows, extraordinarily, for all styles - pluralism. Such innocence in the face of history implies a serious misconstrual of the historicity of art and society. It also implies a failure of criticism.

When formalism prevailed, art tended to be self-critical. ... When formalism fell, even this attitude was largely lost. Free before of other discourses, art now seemed free from its own discourse. and soon it appeared that all criticism, once so crucial to art practice, had lost its cogency. ... We are free - of what, we think we know. But where are we left? The present in art has a strange form, at once full and empty, and a strange tense, a sort of neo-now moment of "arriere-avant-gardism." Many artists borrow promiscuously from both historical and modern art. But these references rarely engage the source - let alone the present - deeply. And the typical artist is often "foot-loose in time, culture and metaphor": a dilettante because he thinks that , as he entertains the past, he is beyond the exigency of the present; a dunce because he assumes a delusion; and a dangling man because historical moment - our present problematic - is lost.

Modern art ENGAGED historical forms, often in order to deconstruct them. Our new art tends to ASSUME historical forms - out of context and reified. Parodic or straight, these quotations plead for the importance, even the traditional status, of the new art. In certain quarters this is seen as a "return to history"; but it is in fact a profoundly ahistorical enterprise, and the result is often "aesthetic pleasure as false consciousness, or vice versa".

This "return to history" is ahistorical for three reasons: the context of history is disregarded, its continuum is disavowed, and conflictual forms of art and modes of production are falsely resolved in pastiche. Neither the specificity of the past nor the necessity of the present is heeded. Such a disregard makes the return to history also seem to be a liberation from history. And today many artists do feel that, free of history, they are able to use it as they wish. ...

To be unaware of historical or social limits is not to be free of them; one is all the more subjected. ... So it is that the freedom of art today is forced (both false and compelled): a willful naivete that masquerades as jouissance, a promiscuity misconceived as pleasure. Marcuse noted how the old tactics of (sexual) liberation, so subversive in a society of production, have come to serve the status quo of our society of consumption: he termed this "repressive desublimation." Similarly, pluralism in art signals a form of tolerance that does not threaten the status quo.

... Art became skittishly stylish - everyone had to be different... in the same way. ... as Adorno remarked, "the official culture's pretense of individualism...necessarily increases in proportion to the liquidation of the individual." Meanwhile, the conventions of art are not in decline but in extraordinary expansion. ...

... an art of "effect"... cannot escape its own condition of hysterical futility. It strains for effects only to degenerate into postures, and these postures have no relief: the emerge flat and ephemeral...

... The victim here is not the historicist model of an autonomous, causal line of "influence," but rather the dialectical model that demands radical, materialist innovation. It is this history that tends to be denied, only to be replaced by history as a monument (or ruin) - a store of styles, symbols, etc., to plunder... Rather than explore this condition of cliched styles and prescriptive codes (as Barthes and Derrida have done), many artists today merely exploit it, and either produce images that are easy to consume or indulge in stylistic references - often in such a way that the past is entertained precisely as publicity. The artist innocent today is a dilettante who, bound to modernist irony, flaunts alienation as if it were freedom.

mixed_biscuits
04-09-2008, 12:43 PM
I'm a chipskate - a hip cheapskate.

Great quotation, Zhao.

swears
04-09-2008, 02:38 PM
Yeah, I like that Hal Foster essay. This is what I'm going on about when I say "eclectism" is not automatically a good thing! (In fact it's generally played out)

swears
17-09-2008, 05:39 PM
Recommend me some "hipster" bars/clubs in London to impress my gf, going down with her for the weekend soonish. Haven't been out in London for a couple of years, and then it was usually just big, clubby places like Fabric.

mistersloane
17-09-2008, 10:17 PM
I think the hip hip kids are all around either Hackney Wick or Limehouse nowadays, best looking crowd I've seen in ages was at the George

http://www.myspace.com/thegeorgetavern

Gorgeous porcelain rockabilly girls and Horrors boys in suits. Music was shite though, but the people looked good. I'm old though.

I'm gonna be playing in Liverpool in October swears so you gotta come down.

STN
17-09-2008, 10:51 PM
Why does everything list its age as 101?

The Electricity Showrooms is okay. I think there may be hipsters there, or maybe it's just like going out in the west end, I prefer to stay in with a Vimto, though I shall be exploring Wapping soon.

Mr. Tea
17-09-2008, 11:00 PM
The Foundry is sort of the epicentre of Shoreditch-ness* (although, as mistersloane says, whether Shoreditch is still where it's at these days is up for debate) - anyway, it was opened by Bill Drummond and functions as a filthy drinking hole (good organic bottled beers from the Pitfield brewery - check out their Shoreditch Stout :)), 'art space' (varies from half-decent to laughable GCSE standard) and occasional performance venue. Haven't been there for some time, but I remember there being a basement with a big steel turntable thing - from its time as an actual foundry, I guess - that you could stand on and use to spin yourself round.


*the other candidate for this would be the Mother bar/333 club - check out their website, it's Barley-tastic: http://www.333mother.com/

swears
17-09-2008, 11:29 PM
I'm gonna be playing in Liverpool in October swears so you gotta come down.

Deffo! PM me and let me know.

Shonx
17-09-2008, 11:34 PM
The Foundry is sort of the epicentre of Shoreditch-ness* (although, as mistersloane says, whether Shoreditch is still where it's at these days is up for debate) - anyway, it was opened by Bill Drummond and functions as a filthy drinking hole (good organic bottled beers from the Pitfield brewery - check out their Shoreditch Stout :)), 'art space' (varies from half-decent to laughable GCSE standard) and occasional performance venue. Haven't been there for some time, but I remember there being a basement with a big steel turntable thing - from its time as an actual foundry, I guess - that you could stand on and use to spin yourself round.

I've been there a few times. I think if it was hip it wasn't whilst I was there. I kind of like the art space. Well I like the people coming up and persuading drunks to take in some art and failing. I thought it was all part of the performance.

CHAOTROPIC
18-09-2008, 12:04 AM
geekster.

...stoner? :D

CHAOTROPIC
18-09-2008, 12:18 AM
The Foundry is sort of the epicentre of Shoreditch-ness* (although, as mistersloane says, whether Shoreditch is still where it's at these days is up for debate) - anyway, it was opened by Bill Drummond and functions as a filthy drinking hole (good organic bottled beers from the Pitfield brewery - check out their Shoreditch Stout :)), 'art space' (varies from half-decent to laughable GCSE standard) and occasional performance venue. Haven't been there for some time, but I remember there being a basement with a big steel turntable thing - from its time as an actual foundry, I guess - that you could stand on and use to spin yourself round.

It's right next to where I work, so it's my local. Lovely comfy ripped-up sofas, good beer, squat-filthy, a nice grubby baby grand you can tinkle on & they don't mind two guys necking (it's probably 'hip') . I have NO fucking clue about the punters. 'Beautiful people' they're not unless Castro beards & pot bellies are beautiful. Which they probably are to, I dunno, goats. Every now & again someone comes round all public-school excitable to lure you to some kindof happening downstairs, which everyone ignores. Then lonely beats & shouting emanate from below, over the noise of the bogs.

CHAOTROPIC
18-09-2008, 12:35 AM
Recommend me some "hipster" bars/clubs in London to impress my gf, going down with her for the weekend soonish. Haven't been out in London for a couple of years, and then it was usually just big, clubby places like Fabric.

Yeah, the clubs there are all rubbish honeytraps. Shoreditch is all about holding as big & exclusive a night as possible in some crappy old boozer & kicking out at 3am for afterparties in all the hipster-rented houses in the area. You can walk down there in the early morning & just gatecrash like crazy if you want to, just wait for staggering pilled-up wretches to come back from beer-runs & follow them in.

VIce's pub, the Old Blue Last is full of braying trustfund munters but their SHOUT night once a month on a, I think, Thursday, is probably the biggest collection of real-deal hipsters you're going to get in London. Most dolled-up crowd of straight people I've seen in ages. The Macbeth pub on Hoxton Street is becoming a key place now, lots of live music, loads of nights, some totally empty, some really crammed. Then there's Hoxton Bar & Kitchen in Hoxton Square, where they used to do Boombox, which has now kindof mutated into something called Ponystep which pretty much every model, social-climbing musician or wannabe goes to. Just rammed with rich, absurdly pretty, dressed-up kids.

Mr. Tea
18-09-2008, 12:50 AM
Ahh yes, the Old Blue Last - I had quite a funny evening there a few years ago on my girlfriend's birthday, we were in the upstairs room with some of the Kosmische (is that night still going?) DJs playing weird spacey krautrock and the combination of that and the general preponderance of hipsters forced a friend of mine who was on mushrooms to seek solace elsewhere...we ended up that night at a rave in a rec ground out by Lea Bridge, surrounded by some decidedly un-hipsterish people. :)

CHAOTROPIC
18-09-2008, 01:37 AM
As Sartre said, L'enfer, c'est les hipsters, sur champignons... :eek:

IdleRich
18-09-2008, 11:33 AM
"best looking crowd I've seen in ages was at the George

http://www.myspace.com/thegeorgetavern

Gorgeous porcelain rockabilly girls and Horrors boys in suits. Music was shite though, but the people looked good."
I was there the other night actually. There weren't many people there beautiful or otherwise but the music was pretty good - probably not the same night. Nice place I think.
The Old Blue Last is definitely hipster central but on a weekend it's so full of them you can't move or hear yourself speak or do anything really - pretty much my idea of hell.
That little area of Bethnal Green where there are loads of new art galleries and that Bistrotheque place is kind of trying to position itself as the new Shoreditch, there is a kind of trendy pub there which blares out music on a Sunday for people who haven't been to bed for a few days. I think Bistrotheque is pretty nice although it never seems to be open when I've been round there recently.
Viner or Vyner Street is what it's called I think.

bunnyhausen
20-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Ahh yes, the Old Blue Last - I had quite a funny evening there a few years ago on my girlfriend's birthday, we were in the upstairs room with some of the Kosmische (is that night still going?) DJs playing weird spacey krautrock and the combination of that and the general preponderance of hipsters forced a friend of mine who was on mushrooms to seek solace elsewhere...we ended up that night at a rave in a rec ground out by Lea Bridge, surrounded by some decidedly un-hipsterish people. :)


Our Kosmische stint at the Old Blue Last didn't last too long (they indulged us for maybe 4 months or so?) but it was quite fun while it lasted. They gave us the brush off cos our punters weren't drinking enough beer for their liking. We're still doing the occasional night here and there (last one was with Silver Apples at Corsica Studios in the oh-so-achingly-hip Elephant and Castle) and we're still playing our Neu and Cluster records on Resonance FM every week.

OT I know, but since you ask ;-)

tom pr
21-09-2008, 01:51 AM
i actually think vice is unequivocally a force for good these days.. seeing the piece on the grime youngers in this month's issue was quite significant i think. if they were true dilettantes they would have dropped that shit years ago.
i doubt it was deliberate, but someone showed me that piece and it was basically what i wrote for woofah but with a tenth of the words. sad face.

tom pr
21-09-2008, 01:57 AM
anyway, isn't it basically only prancehall who ever writes about grime in vice, and he's said before that nobody at vice care about it, they just like his writing? i've got nothing against vice, but if it's only one person in the magazine's uk edition pushing grime then they're not really pushing it.

swears
21-09-2008, 05:11 AM
Dunno but this made me chuckle and was otm:

http://vice.typepad.com/vice_magazine/2008/09/london---watchi.html

mos dan
25-09-2008, 12:59 AM
anyway, isn't it basically only prancehall who ever writes about grime in vice, and he's said before that nobody at vice care about it, they just like his writing? i've got nothing against vice, but if it's only one person in the magazine's uk edition pushing grime then they're not really pushing it.

yeah but come on, whether it's cos they like his writing or cos they like grime, they're still publishing it. they could just as easily ask him to write about something else.

and by the anti-hipster theory they should have started hating in 2005 when 'run the road' came out and stopped mentioning it completely by the end of that year.

further, if you look at the visual iconography of grime, the likes of alex sturrock and jamie-james medina are pretty integral to it, and that work was all done at/for vice. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2359843788_ac5effe31e_o.jpg

but anyway your first post, about the grime youngers piece.. yeah, that sucks, i hate that shit. i've had time out take a full feature pitch off me before and just get a staff writer to do it on the sly while they tell me they've changed their minds.. grr.

tom pr
25-09-2008, 12:34 PM
further, if you look at the visual iconography of grime, the likes of alex sturrock and jamie-james medina are pretty integral to it, and that work was all done at/for vice. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2359843788_ac5effe31e_o.jpg
that's a very good point- i did neglect the visual side of it.

Corpsey
25-09-2008, 12:39 PM
yeah but come on, whether it's cos they like his writing or cos they like grime, they're still publishing it. they could just as easily ask him to write about something else.


Looks like he IS writing about something else now...

It's quite odd, reading Vice, to reflect that its written by/read by the sort of apparently contemptible people you see swaggering around Shoreditch - its so full of sarcastic disdain for various subcultures that you'd have thought that they'd be an obvious target... perhaps they are? Maybe it's the armour of irony that protects them, from the criticism of others or of themselves...

I don't think most people are aware of what 'hipsters' are, outside of certain circles of people who could perhaps be described as pretty trendy themselves. That's one of the reasons 'Nathan Barley' sank like a stone in the ratings (alongside it not being particularly good) - the satirical point was lost on most people.

Besides, as a friend of mine who comes into contact with a lot more 'hipsters' than I do said to me, the idea of a homogeneously arrogant/obnoxious community of Nathan Barleys is a bit of a straw man... No doubt a lot of them are trust fund gobbling wankers but I'm sure plenty of them are just as passionate about certain things as WE NOBLE BEINGS are. They might just be into the fashion/parties etc. of that scene as well. And there are wankers in any scene.

Obviously as a satirical creation Nathan Barley was supposed to be a grotesque, an exaggeration, but I do wonder if he was too MUCH of an exaggeration? I don't live in one of those areas and I don't really come into much contact with 'hipsters' so I can't be sure but are there really that many people who are THAT stupid and unselfconscious and selfish in that scene?

mos dan
25-09-2008, 12:51 PM
Besides, as a friend of mine who comes into contact with a lot more 'hipsters' than I do said to me, the idea of a homogeneously arrogant/obnoxious community of Nathan Barleys is a bit of a straw man... No doubt a lot of them are trust fund gobbling wankers but I'm sure plenty of them are just as passionate about certain things as WE NOBLE BEINGS are. They might just be into the fashion/parties etc. of that scene as well. And there are wankers in any scene

yeah this was precisely the crux of my article :)

re nathan barley, i actually think it was unfairly derided. 'it lacked any truly sympathetic characters, so it was never going to succeed' was the (fair) verdict of someone i know who's written sitcoms. but i still think the observations and the language were inspired at times. all of the sugarape magazine scenes, particularly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_OirA3zGNw

i'd actually like a spin-off series about sugarape.

IdleRich
25-09-2008, 12:53 PM
"It's quite odd, reading Vice, to reflect that its written by/read by the sort of apparently contemptible people you see swaggering around Shoreditch - its so full of sarcastic disdain for various subcultures that you'd have thought that they'd be an obvious target... perhaps they are? Maybe it's the armour of irony that protects them, from the criticism of others or of themselves..."
I think that there are some very interesting articles in Vice but when you go in The Old Blue Last I somehow don't get the impression that the majority of people in there are reading them. Perhaps I'm wrong.


"I don't think most people are aware of what 'hipsters' are, outside of certain circles of people who could perhaps be described as pretty trendy themselves. That's one of the reasons 'Nathan Barley' sank like a stone in the ratings (alongside it not being particularly good) - the satirical point was lost on most people."
Yes of course. And this goes back to a point that someone made earlier - really how important are "hipsters" in the grand scheme of things? Aren't there far better (though maybe not so easy) targets?

Corpsey
25-09-2008, 01:12 PM
yeah this was precisely the crux of my article :)

re nathan barley, i actually think it was unfairly derided. 'it lacked any truly sympathetic characters, so it was never going to succeed' was the (fair) verdict of someone i know who's written sitcoms.

I can never put my finger on exactly what it is that puts me off about it, perhaps that's it though. I know that the Morris fan-base seem to primarily loathe it for its casting of actors like Richard Ayodade, Noel Fielding etc... who are seen as belonging to a 'new school' of comedy that prioritizes irony, controversy and 'being well random' over more traditional setup-punchline jokes (oh, and who are also seen as being really really shit)... in fact, 'Nathan Barley' might be seen as belonging to that type of comedy itself... I don't think it's that simple, though.

Given that 'SugaRape' is clearly supposed to be a parody of Vice, do you think that the parody is now outdated, or that it was never supposed to be particularly accurate? Or is Vice, despite being a 'force for good', actually written by and for giggling twats?

straight
25-09-2008, 01:24 PM
also love how vice still write about skating and hardcore like the people they perceive to be their readership was doing anything else pre electroclash/a-levels than riding horses and taping dave pearce off the radio. The last few issues have had some pretty good reporting in them which i assume gets skimmed past to look at people getting stick for their clothes outside bars smoking. in fact, the smoking bans have probably been a godsend to the dos and donts, you cant take anything like a decent full length photo in a club. All you have to do is read the comments beneath the articles on the vice website to see how bad the desperation to have some sort of sprayed on cool is amongst its readers, and depressing that so many think that it can be achieved by (ironically) brainless insults

Immryr
25-09-2008, 02:17 PM
nathan barley was amazing. the language, like in any morris series, is just so, so, good.

vimothy
25-09-2008, 02:19 PM
Yep

mos dan
25-09-2008, 02:43 PM
glad there's some love for barley on here. corpsey you're right about the 'new school' being offensive to chris morris obsessives though - did anyone ever used to read cook'd and bomb'd message board? chris morris fans are *hardcore*.. very purist.

ultimately though richard ayaode is funny - see garth merenghi's dark place. fielding is a twat but whatever.

thanks to this thread i just wasted most of my lunchbreak reading dos and don'ts... on brits:

http://www.viceland.com/int/dd.php?id=508

swears
25-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Nathan Barley the TV show just couldn't live up to the sheer delicious spitefulness of the early tvgohome "Cunt" pieces. (I think there's an achive online somewhere, but my work firewall doesn't like sites with "cunt" in the title, lol) It was OK, although overstretched, might have worked better as five minute bits in a sketch show.

Shonx
25-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Cunt was awesome. I think if that sort of anger had gone into the tv show it would have been far funnier (although technically unfilmable I think). Don't think it was about absence of sympathetic characters, really a lot more to do with the fact that the characters that were supposed to be derided weren't actually hateful enough. I got the feeling with the series that Nathan was just a bit of a dick desperately needing to be seen as cool by his peers in a laughably teenage fashion, whereas the Barley from Cunt was far more like Jonathan Yeah? in the series, far nastier borderline sociopath.

Oh the Cunt archives are here - http://www.tvgohome.com/

swears
25-09-2008, 03:14 PM
Yeah, those are the tvgohome archives, but this is supposed to be just the Cunt stories collected: http://thegestalt.org/simon/cunt/.

Can't see on my work pc, though.

Mr. Tea
25-09-2008, 03:57 PM
TVGoHome was fantastic. There was great stuff in it other than Cunt, too - Mick Hucknall's Pink Pancakes, anyone? :)

vimothy
25-09-2008, 04:01 PM
Personally, I though Barley (the character) was pretty cool. The mental tv exec and the editor of Sugarape were best though.

swears
25-09-2008, 04:47 PM
Interesting how Nathan '99 and '05 differ. Electroclash changed everything. ;)

CHAOTROPIC
25-09-2008, 06:08 PM
I always thought that the subtext of the humour in Cunt was the over-the-top nature of Charlie Brooker's hatred of Nathan Barley. The ludicrous obsession with Barley's relatively commonplace offensiveness was made clear in the series. In the original, we don't get to see the narrator, but in Nathan Barley we do, & if Dan Ashcroft wrote a blog, it'd be exactly like Cunt. What Ashcroft hates about Barley & the hipsters has nothing really to do with shallowness, tastelessness or amorality (calling people 'idiots' scarcely implies a moral censure) but their lack of alienation, which enables them to unselfconsiously embrace all the ridiculousness of their social context, plus the rewards of such insiderness: productivity, popularity & success. So I kindof saw the series as equally critical of Ashcroft's ineffectual sniping, his own weak wille zur macht, paralysis, parasitism & hopelessness, that leads to his Barley-obsession, as it was of the hipster trough from which, let's face it, both he & Charlie Brooker drink. Rather than being a television version of Cunt, I think it's Brooker asking, quite honestly, "why do I hate these people so much?"

mos dan
03-10-2008, 03:29 PM
I was watching this video:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=43954366

and wondering how 'brash' 'new rave' clothing was supposed to honour those who died in the Holocaust (skip to 2:30 ish if you don't want to watch the whole thing), and then a name caught my eye on the credits. Runner: Max Gogarty. Good to see he's still getting work lol.

Mr. Tea
03-10-2008, 03:58 PM
Runner: Max Gogarty. Good to see he's still getting work lol.

Heh, Max Gogarty, a.k.a. Nathan Bali?

Is the poor lad ever going to live that down? I reckon he's going to top himself and then the Express will be all like "Innocent teenager hounded to death by Guardian blog bullies".

STN
03-10-2008, 04:01 PM
He got a BAFTA for his script work on Skins, I'll have you know.

Mr. Tea
03-10-2008, 04:04 PM
He got a BAFTA for his script work on Skins, I'll have you know.

Like, no way? How random! What a legend!

STN
03-10-2008, 04:07 PM
I thought the bitterness on his blog vastly eclipsed the fact that he probably is (being 19) a bit of a prannie, and obscured what could have been a necessary debate on nepotism.

IdleRich
03-10-2008, 04:13 PM
"I thought the bitterness on his blog vastly eclipsed the fact that he probably is (being 19) a bit of a prannie, and obscured what could have been a necessary debate on nepotism."
I agree, great wasn't it? I particular liked the people who come in on the third day and just say something that eight-hundred and thirty seven people have already said. And the way that the Guardian kept starting new slightly different blogs to explain themselves and they also got buried under the exact same tirade of pack-mentality anger.

mms
03-10-2008, 04:30 PM
I agree, great wasn't it? I particular liked the people who come in on the third day and just say something that eight-hundred and thirty seven people have already said. And the way that the Guardian kept starting new slightly different blogs to explain themselves and they also got buried under the exact same tirade of pack-mentality anger.

those blog notice boards are pretty grim, is it really guardian readers that write on them?
i always thought they'd be more gentle.
the guardian is a spirit crushing rag though.
this yesterday was truly pathetic
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/oct/02/sarah.palin.rocks

how long has that twat been doing this sort of thing?

that girl in the video above was awful wasn't she, really not very anything, i bet they've never sold 60,000 copies of their magazine ever.

CHAOTROPIC
03-10-2008, 10:07 PM
that girl in the video above was awful wasn't she, really not very anything, i bet they've never sold 60,000 copies of their magazine ever.

How terribly anti-supersuper-semitic. Can't you see she's expressing the pain of a nation through her unique style & music??

mms
03-10-2008, 11:23 PM
How terribly anti-supersuper-semitic. Can't you see she's expressing the pain of a nation through her unique style & music??

she certainly aided me in expressing pain.

Mr. Tea
04-10-2008, 12:57 AM
"My clothingstyle'svery colour-fuul...."

Got about that far and had to turn it off, I'm afraid.

swears
04-10-2008, 01:26 AM
"Hipster: the word for everything young people do that you donít understand."

Shonx
04-10-2008, 08:43 AM
A friend of mine was actually unpaid editor for Super Super, didn't even get expenses paid. Obviously easy to be an eternal optimist when you're not doing the actual work bit. Casual exploitation of media types eh, tsk.

mms
04-10-2008, 10:25 AM
A friend of mine was actually unpaid editor for Super Super, didn't even get expenses paid. Obviously easy to be an eternal optimist when you're not doing the actual work bit. Casual exploitation of media types eh, tsk.

it's called 'internship' the media's backbone.

Shonx
04-10-2008, 10:31 AM
it's called 'internship' the media's backbone.

I thought internships usually went to runners rather than editors, but yeah, does seem to be the way of things.

mms
04-10-2008, 10:54 AM
I thought internships usually went to runners rather than editors, but yeah, does seem to be the way of things.

oh, well they seem to be commonplace for anything nowdays.

Basically the main things you need to be a success in the media are;

Private funding and the ability to work for free for long stretches of time. (rich parents)

Know people with even better private funding that you who you can work for.

Be the progeny of famous people, as ES magazine tells us every week.

Live in london or have parents that live in london.

There are of course many many people who aren't like this, and who are genuine and intelligent and talented but there are huge numbers like this, often very powerful.

A large part of the media is just old boys (and girls) network with funnier clothes.

Mr. Tea
13-06-2012, 02:36 PM
http://livetravelcity.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/LTChipster-london.jpg

"Chloe Sevigny Instagramming a cupcake" :D

baboon2004
13-06-2012, 03:05 PM
So glad Green Lanes isn't on this graph.

Vauxhall seems very misplaced.

Mr. Tea
13-06-2012, 03:54 PM
So glad Green Lanes isn't on this graph.

Vauxhall seems very misplaced.

I thought Vauxhall had, if not hipster cache exactly, at least a certain amount of default cool because of its gay clubs? Or do only really unfashionable gays go there these days?

baboon2004
13-06-2012, 04:11 PM
Well exactly, it's very hipsterish in a lot of ways - dismissing it as a roundabout seems to lack any hipster nous!

I spent an evening in Shoreditch the other week with nary an obvious hipster to be seen - it was quite nice. Maybe I'm wrong and just go out less, but since the obvious try-hard hipsters have dispersed a little, it all seems less irritating than five/ten years ago.

Mr. Tea
13-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Shoreditch's seams of irony ore are running dry.

baboon2004
13-06-2012, 04:37 PM
There was one girl wearing angel wings, to be fair.

Mr. Tea
13-06-2012, 05:15 PM
There was one girl wearing angel wings, to be fair.

Ha, that has to be the ultimate hipster death knell. That and drunk middle-aged blokes with crew cuts in Fred Perry shirts that don't quite fit them.

Local Authority
19-06-2012, 08:55 PM
Shoreditch is just an annexed part of Essex these days.

baboon2004
20-06-2012, 11:32 AM
which makes it far better than it used to be

Local Authority
23-06-2012, 06:00 PM
You say that now.

Every day I'm reminded of that episode of South Park about Jersey Shore.

Mr. Tea
25-06-2012, 09:31 AM
While we're shooting everyone's favourite fish-in-a-barrel: who exactly decided topknots are fashionable now? They used to be the sole preserve of rather severe middle-aged English teachers and dowdy maiden aunts but now every other 25-y-o woman is sporting one. It must be pretty much the least attractive hairstyle going, with the possible exception of white-girl dreads or cornrows.

Lichen
25-06-2012, 03:21 PM
Imagine the rash of terrible children's names when hipsters hit spawning age.

baboon2004
25-06-2012, 03:46 PM
At least Dalston is already a boy's name. Pity little Shoreditch.

Lichen
25-06-2012, 03:50 PM
I think Ditch is quite a likely name
Also

Dutch
Landy
Butch
Hem
Stevo
Ralphy
&
Duke

Mr. Tea
25-06-2012, 05:29 PM
I think Ditch is quite a likely name
Also

Dutch
Landy
Butch
Hem
Stevo
Ralphy
&
Duke

Great list!

Probably also 'Berry' - short for 'Burberry'. Ironic chav chic, y'see?

muser
25-06-2012, 08:00 PM
im imaging some poor kids getting lumbered with geometric shapes as names aswel, or abstract concepts, possibly with the use of specialist ascii characters such as crucifix's and arrows/triangles.

Lichen
25-06-2012, 08:17 PM
I forgot Patch.

yyaldrin
25-06-2012, 08:43 PM
There are no hipster baby names in the UK? It's already quite common here I think. Hmm coming to think of it, it's rather the trendy yuppies living in posh Amsterdam neighbourhoods who are giving their babies ridiculous names.

Mr. Tea
26-06-2012, 06:02 PM
Ridiculous names in the UK are more associated with footballers' kids and people who aspire towards that lifestyle, rather than 'hipsters' per se.

Local Authority
26-06-2012, 10:34 PM
triangle
eye
king

Patrick Swayze
27-06-2012, 12:52 AM
Dante
Kony

Mr. Tea
27-06-2012, 09:30 AM
Twins called Fresh and Wild.

Local Authority
27-06-2012, 12:36 PM
Dante
Kony

my brother was actually called dante

Patrick Swayze
27-06-2012, 02:07 PM
my brother was actually called dante

yeah but that was before it was cool

also what u on this weekend text me my phone only takes calls on loudspeaker which is shit

Pestario
27-06-2012, 09:00 PM
I thought Vauxhall had, if not hipster cache exactly, at least a certain amount of default cool because of its gay clubs? Or do only really unfashionable gays go there these days?

IMHO the gay scene has its own trajectory independent of the hipster scene. What's considered alternative in gay world doesn't necessarily align with the equivalent in the straight world. Vauxhall's placement on that graph would be accurate from a straight hipster viewpoint but I'd bump it a bit further right on the gay equivalent of that graph with soho upper left, clapham lower left maybe...

BareBones
21-09-2012, 05:10 PM
What Was The Hipster?
http://nymag.com/news/features/69129/

"One could say, exaggerating only slightly, that the hipster moment did not produce artists, but tattoo artists, who gained an entire generationís arms, sternums, napes, ankles, and lower backs as their canvas. It did not produce photographers, but snapshot and party photographers: Last Nightís Party, Terry Richardson, the Cobra Snake. It did not produce painters, but graphic designers. It did not yield a great literature, but it made good use of fonts."

Leo
21-09-2012, 05:20 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/t0ph3r/the-most-hipster-hipster-youll-ever-see-5bwv

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/5/3/22/enhanced-buzz-21487-1336099394-0.jpg

vimothy
22-09-2012, 12:23 AM
hip (adj.) the exact opposite of what you are if you decide to read a book about what one means by the term 'hip'

Here (http://audio.skeyelab.com/howtospeakhip/) is a record that you might find helpful.

baboon2004
25-09-2012, 08:23 PM
at the last photo:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldvczbOXxu1qzjix8.gif

woops
25-09-2012, 08:59 PM
Nice jacket and he's checking a lot of music on the go, and his girlfriend's fringe is fit. I reckon that guy probably posts on this forum. Show yourself!

viktorvaughn
26-09-2012, 01:48 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/t0ph3r/the-most-hipster-hipster-youll-ever-see-5bwv

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/5/3/22/enhanced-buzz-21487-1336099394-0.jpg

Is this outside the Marquis of Lansdown in Dalston?

viktorvaughn
26-09-2012, 01:57 PM
was just looking at Stalin and I thought...what a hipster

http://cdn1.retronaut.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/1209.jpg

baboon2004
26-09-2012, 02:11 PM
Nice jacket and he's checking a lot of music on the go, and his girlfriend's fringe is fit. I reckon that guy probably posts on this forum. Show yourself!

poor girlfriend....

paolo
26-09-2012, 03:27 PM
My brother admitted to being a hipster a few weeks ago. This makes me think that he isn't a hipster because real hipsters never admit to being hipsters

craner
26-09-2012, 03:35 PM
If you declare yourself a hipster, but nobody agrees, is that hip?

Mr. Tea
26-09-2012, 06:01 PM
My brother admitted to being a hipster a few weeks ago. This makes me think that he isn't a hipster because real hipsters never admit to being hipsters

That's probably just what he wants you think.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hEtCEcuxprI#t=1s

Mr. Tea
26-09-2012, 06:02 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/t0ph3r/the-most-hipster-hipster-youll-ever-see-5bwv

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/5/3/22/enhanced-buzz-21487-1336099394-0.jpg

If I didn't know better I'd say that was a pre-haircut IdleRich sitting in the background.

baboon2004
26-09-2012, 06:09 PM
I was gonna say that too, but thought I was being mental!

Mr. Tea
26-09-2012, 08:58 PM
He's being rather rude to his girlfriend, if indeed that's who that woman is. She's wearing a nice dress and seems to be drinking an interesting-looking beer.

slowtrain
27-09-2012, 01:02 AM
I don't like anything about that photo except for the beer.

baboon2004
10-12-2012, 08:31 PM
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/how-to-live-without-irony/

Edit: This is a really good article (hadn't read it when I posted it; was just putting it up for future reference), especially in the way it draws a link between empty use of irony and (non) politics. The one thing that perplexes me is: how is Wes Anderson linked to sincerity in any way? Or maybe I've misread the sentence.

Dunninger
10-12-2012, 08:47 PM
all questions are answered here:
http://www.zero-books.net/books/sacred-and-the-profane-the
(maybe, haven't read it of course :rolleyes:)

Mr. Tea
10-12-2012, 09:08 PM
all questions are answered here:
http://www.zero-books.net/books/sacred-and-the-profane-the
(maybe, haven't read it of course :rolleyes:)


If you can't stand hipsters, are a hipster, or don't know what a hipster is, this book is for you.

Well that covers about 95% of humanity, so they've really concentrated nicely on their target audience!

e/y
10-12-2012, 09:19 PM
Whatever good points that NYT piece makes have been made many times before ages ago, and the rest of it is really pretty poor imo (lol @ 4 year olds being the models of non-ironic living and 90s being irony free).

Slothrop
10-12-2012, 09:21 PM
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/how-to-live-without-irony/

Edit: This is a really good article (hadn't read it when I posted it; was just putting it up for future reference), especially in the way it draws a link between empty use of irony and (non) politics.

Maybe I'm overly academic about this sort of stuff, but I get really wound up by articles that start off with a bunch of bald assertions about The Way Things Are and then proceed to demonstrate how this bears out a whole bunch of the author's (and the audience's) prejudices. The Ironic Hipster as described here just seems like far too obviously mythological a character to just take at face value.

baboon2004
10-12-2012, 10:43 PM
I agree that there's holes in it, it's written in that didactic way that 'comment' pieces are written, and that the Hipster doesn't exist in the bald way portrayed, but I think the points it makes about the flight to irony and the problems with it, are pretty on-point. So I guess for me, the article might've been better ditching the hipster conceit and talking more generally about irony, which it does attempt to do part-way through I think.

Also, I don't read enough innovative things in newspapers to mind when good points are being re-made - they bear repeating in this case I think.

Slothrop
12-12-2012, 01:12 PM
"A hipster is someone you don't like who likes the same stuff that you do."

Discuss.

baboon2004
12-12-2012, 05:24 PM
To broaden the point:

"A great many things one doesn't like in others are amplified versions of what one doesn't like in oneself".

Yeah, there is much truth in this. Which I think the article also touched upon.

Slothrop
12-12-2012, 05:55 PM
But I think accusations of hipsterism and "ironic consumption" in particular are constructed as a defensive thing. If people who you don't like start getting into the same sort of things you like, then rather than admit that you have some sort of cultural commonality and shared taste, you declare that their enjoyment can't possibly be authentic - they must be being ironic or following a trend or something. They don't "really get it" like you do.

It's a subcultural capital thing...

baboon2004
12-12-2012, 09:11 PM
Hm, I'm not convinced by this. Personally I'm not too bothered what music other people consume, it's the unfriendliness/ironic detachment (in terms of personality) I've encountered in places that might be deemed 'hipsterish' that has made me have negative feelings towards them.

In fact I'm fine with the hipsters I've met who have been friendly enough, don't have any particular problem with them, it's just that they've tended to be in the minority in the places I've been to. More often I've encountered tedious oneupmanship. Which is not to say that this attitude doesn't exist elsewhere (of course it does), but that it seems very common in hipster environments. As does (blatantly) 'ironic' dancing - the sense that doing anything earnestly must be somehow uncool. And that is as damning as it gets.

But as you rightly say, doesn't apply to all hipsters/people who hang around in hipsterish places. Some are very nice people.

Leo
12-12-2012, 09:22 PM
More often I've encountered tedious oneupmanship

this is the crux of it, for me. seems to surface regardless of whether the discussion is about clothes, music, films, bars, neighborhoods, whatever.

it's not so much a matter of which music, or which bar they are into...it's more the relentless insistence of letting everyone know they are one step ahead of everyone else on the topic.

IdleRich
13-12-2012, 10:43 AM
I watched the new Simpsons episode in which hipsters take over Springfield. Some good hits landed and a few misses (or maybe that's cos it's pastiches US hipsters rather than those down the road from me, alright in my flat). I liked the West Ham banner in the hipster child's bedroom - is liking proper football a hipster thing in the states now?
Not read the article below to the bottom yet but it's got some more info on the episode I think.

http://www.flavorwire.com/354499/the-simpsons-hipster-episode-was-everything-thats-wrong-with-the-simpsons-now

Mr. Tea
03-06-2013, 10:09 AM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hipsters.png

Local Authority
14-06-2013, 12:01 PM
Do hipsters even exist?

muser
14-06-2013, 01:02 PM
That's exactly the kind of question a hipster would ask..

Mr. Tea
14-06-2013, 01:13 PM
Summon the Hipsterfinder General!

baboon2004
14-06-2013, 02:17 PM
That's got to be a photoshop competition.

padraig (u.s.)
14-06-2013, 02:34 PM
hipsters definitely exist, but in the eye of the beholder. the concept is relative to whoever's talking about it.

hipsterfinder general is the worst witchfinder general cover band of all time

Mr. Tea
14-06-2013, 04:09 PM
hipsterfinder general is the worst witchfinder general cover band of all time

Yeah but they're ironic so it's all cool, see?

Patrick Swayze
14-06-2013, 04:51 PM
THis morning I acquired a pogo stick and a 70s photo album of Prince Andrew

Local Authority
16-06-2013, 03:04 PM
That's exactly the kind of question a hipster would ask..

Don't know if that's meant to be ironic but I've always been of the stance that all of this intellectual posturing on what a hipster is and what constitutes hipsterness to be largely irrelevant. All of us possess traits which you could define as hipster, everyone who takes part in popular or sub culture are to some extent hipster by the very act of committing themselves to those things. Pop culture and sub culture are the same thing now too, as irony would have it.

Patrick Swayze
16-06-2013, 06:22 PM
what's more hipster - to sincerely, or ironically, self identify as a hipster?

Local Authority
16-06-2013, 07:01 PM
Hipsters only exist within irony.

baboon2004
20-06-2013, 11:03 AM
The unprompted thought popped into my head this morning that 'Hipsters: Scourge or Irrelevance?' would have to have a place in a hypothetical line of Dissensus T-shirts.

Any other thoughts (who was it who referred to something somebody had written the other day as 'the most Dissensus comment ever written'?)?

Slothrop
20-06-2013, 11:17 AM
The unprompted thought popped into my head this morning that 'Hipsters: Scourge or Irrelevance?' would have to have a place in a hypothetical line of Dissensus T-shirts.

Any other thoughts (who was it who referred to something somebody had written the other day as 'the most Dissensus comment ever written'?)?

I'd get
"I AM A DEFENDER OF SIMON REYNOLD'S FACE"
and possibly
"NUUM GENERAL"

baboon2004
20-06-2013, 11:20 AM
Tag cloud will also be an invaluable resource, I suspect.

Slothrop
20-06-2013, 11:21 AM
We could make Zhao one that says "I've got any number of African T-shirts that are infintely better than this emotionally-constipated European shit." If that'd fit on a T-shirt.

Slothrop
20-06-2013, 11:21 AM
This probably deserves a new thread...

baboon2004
20-06-2013, 11:24 AM
Agreed.

ifp
20-06-2013, 10:50 PM
"NUUM GENERAL"

Amazing

Sectionfive
20-09-2013, 04:01 AM
http://www.theawl.com/2013/09/i-was-a-hated-hipster-meme-and-then-it-got-worse

droid
20-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Poor guy. Seems like a decent chap.

IdleRich
20-09-2013, 11:39 AM
Yes, I'm inclined to agree but I can't help thinking that he's going to bring up a whole load more of hipster hate directed at himself with this article.

Mr. Tea
20-09-2013, 11:52 AM
Agreed. Kind of low of his ex to publicly make his internet infamy all about her, too. Bet that made him feel loads better.

Patrick Swayze
21-09-2013, 02:10 PM
Being mocked by semi-literate morons on reddit really isn't worth getting upset, or writing a lengthy article, about. A nice piece of publicity though.

crofton
30-10-2013, 08:17 AM
i just saw a flyer for a night using the word "vintage" as a musical genre.

swears
13-02-2014, 04:59 PM
I divide my time between Liverpool and East London now, so from what I've observed over the last couple of years:

Most of the younger, really style conscious hipsters have gravitated towards 3 things: Wavy/streetwear styles, the 90s and sportswear in general. The sharpest looking guy I've seen recently had a perfect wedge haircut and a mint condition 90s yellow Hilfiger mountineering jacket. Lots of bucket hats, RL Polo shirts, New Balance 574s, etc. Yung Lean and his crew are a good example of this:

http://i.imgur.com/x5WwHvs.png

A lot of the older guys have graduated to what you might dub #menswear. Fifty quid haircuts, double monks and tweed blazers. This is fine by me, tbh. Lawrence Schlossman is the archetypal scenester here. His "Fuck Yeah Menswear" book is essential reading, imo.

All the signifiers like scruffy beards, horn-rim glasses, fixies, organic food... that's what your mum thinks is a hipster now. I know there are still people around who look like this, but they're probably just UCL students.

Mr. Tea
13-02-2014, 05:22 PM
I know there are still people around who look like this, but they're probably just UCL students.

Ha! I remember when I came to UCL in '99 wondering why a good third or so of the girls living in the same halls as me appeared to be Plymouth Brethren. Turned out headscarves (not in a Muslim way, more head-hankies) were the thing that term. I'd come from a pretty untrendy provincial place and was thus totally mystified.

My latest clothing purchase is a totally awesome Hawai'ian shirt (from Hawai'i).

IdleRich
13-02-2014, 06:08 PM
Those guys might be hip but they aint hipsters

Slothrop
13-02-2014, 08:25 PM
Round here (Cambridge) half of them seem to be wearing selfconsciously sloaney quilted barbour jackets these days. Which occasionally makes them hard to distinguish from the actual sloanies wearing unselfconsciously sloaney quilted barbour jackets.

Mr. Tea
14-02-2014, 08:51 AM
http://i.imgur.com/x5WwHvs.png


Agree with Rich. In the terminology of the late '90s these guys would have been "townies", which is kind of the diametric opposite of hipsters.

swears
15-02-2014, 03:30 PM
Yeah, but they're not townies, they're an avant-garde rap crew who dress like townies did in about 1996.

griftert
15-02-2014, 05:41 PM
Yeah, those aren't hipsters.

Mr. Tea
15-02-2014, 07:15 PM
Yeah, but they're not townies, they're an avant-garde rap crew who dress like townies did in about 1996.

But then what makes them "hipsters"?

Mr. Tea
15-02-2014, 07:28 PM
Or is it that the most hipster thing you can do in 2014 is to look totally unlike a hipster?

comelately
17-02-2014, 12:32 PM
A lot of the older guys have graduated to what you might dub #menswear. Fifty quid haircuts, double monks and tweed blazers. This is fine by me, tbh. Lawrence Schlossman is the archetypal scenester here. His "Fuck Yeah Menswear" book is essential reading, imo.

I think double-monks are kinda done-to-death now, which I guess makes me more hipster-than-hipster. Despite being a Scot, I prefer Donegal to Harris Tweeds :-)

#menswear is a lot bigger than any scene though, it's British (and American) men buying their own clothes en masse and not looking like shit. It's obviously also a reflection of casual dress codes becoming more or less the norm, despite the insistence of Mr Porter in retaining terms such as 'off-duty' and 'weekend wear'. People wear lapels and collars because they look good, not because they have to.

Mr. Tea
17-02-2014, 01:13 PM
Am I alone in not having the foggiest what "double-monks" are? It sounds like a made-up gay sex act on urbandictionary.com.

comelately
17-02-2014, 02:31 PM
Am I alone in not having the foggiest what "double-monks" are? It sounds like a made-up gay sex act on urbandictionary.com.

http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/shoepassion-double-monk-strap-shoe-review.jpg


Double-monk (straps)

http://a1.zassets.com/images/z/1/5/7/9/0/3/1579037-p-2x.jpg

Single-monk (straps)

Theory states that they are a little more versatile than Oxfords/Derbys i.e. they go better with a pair of jeans, whilst still remaining suit-friendly. There's metal which arguably needs to be matched up with any belt buckle, cufflinks or, god forbid, tiebar ;-D

IdleRich
17-02-2014, 02:35 PM
"Yeah, but they're not townies, they're an avant-garde rap crew who dress like townies did in about 1996."
But I think they're committed to what they're doing - they won't be jumping music style and clothing to psychedelic folk next week.

blacktulip
17-02-2014, 03:35 PM
In fairness hipsters took a few years to do that, and a lot of them still have the beards it appears.

CrowleyHead
20-02-2014, 02:22 AM
But I think they're committed to what they're doing - they won't be jumping music style and clothing to psychedelic folk next week.

No, but that's because that's what they were doing before they discovered 'weird' rap.

IdleRich
20-02-2014, 10:33 AM
But were they really?

Mr. Tea
20-02-2014, 11:27 AM
Ironic ska will be the scene to watch this summer, mark my words.

CrowleyHead
23-02-2014, 04:52 AM
But were they really?

Ask me how many internet rappers were doing 'punk/hardcore' bands before 2012.

The trick answer is: too many without the self-awareness to realize they're fucking trash.

IdleRich
23-02-2014, 03:50 PM
How many?

CrowleyHead
23-02-2014, 04:18 PM
How many?

About somewhere between 10-20, but then the key figure is, "How many of those dudes have friends in bands coveted by Pitchfork, or who were writing for Vice, who can now tell their bosses 'No no, I was in a power violence band with him. He's cool!'?

And this is why I tend to only write about people from Atlanta or Chicago or LA now, who's fanbases mostly consist of urban teens/young adults who are native to the environment.

Because fuck subtlety, watching a true fucking idiot who knows nothing about rap and was in terrible hardcore bands, but has friends in the right places, subsequently gain fame as a 'rapper' and then witness him getting some mind-blowingly fawning praise is pretty awful. Extra salt in the wounds when someone let him write an article about the Cocteau Twins where he'd used descriptors such as "This song makes me wanna wear a suit..." Because, you see, he really needed to be allowed to say that and get that published.

-_-

IdleRich
23-02-2014, 05:28 PM
Who you talking about here? Dunno which article this refers to. Something written by a late-arrival hip-hopiste is that what you're saying? And is Yung Lean guilty of the same kinda thing?

slowtrain
03-03-2014, 08:08 AM
Ironic ska will be the scene to watch this summer, mark my words.

no it wont be (although i did see an old guy in a shirt that said 'HARD SKA GENIUS' yesterday)

it is psytrance.

i didn't realise cos i don't listen to hip hop, but someone was telling me that contemp hip hop is using lots of trance presets now, and vice just did this big article on how psytrance will 'never be cool'

so yeah its psytrance (or gabber)

Mr. Tea
03-03-2014, 11:17 AM
I was joking but whatever. I have about as much interest in the listening habits of Vice readers as I do in Scottish league football.