What is Politics

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
I was having a coffee with a colleague yesterday, and at one point she said to me: "We have a different understanding of the word 'politics.'" I'd been talking about the political implications of the internet and had been making the case that the internet was creating new patterns of social organization, and therefore new political forms. "When you use the word politics, you seem to mean social and cultural," she said, "I have a different understanding."

At the time, I understood this remark in the context of a simple difference of opinion. In retrospect, though, I wonder whether or not I was wrong.

I've been asking myself this question: "What is politics - as distinguished from the social and cultural?" Any takers?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Do you think she thinks of politics as something that goes on between elected ministers in Parliament or what people do when there's an election, as opposed to something that's happening all the time inside the heads of most people?

Hmm, my posited idea about her possible idea has made her sound rather stupid - I'm sure she's not stupid or you wouldn't have been having that conversation with her. But do you see what I mean - a conceptual break of that sort?
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
I remain unsure. But I think she does think, yes, that politics is ultimately a matter of state, and of government, and the concerted and organized forces acting upon it. Fundamentally, she thinks there is a distinction between the social and cultural, and the political. And what I wonder is a) whether she's right, and b) what this difference would consist of?

One possible answer: One of the things which I've begun to become much more wary of in recent years, in the spectacle of the professor registering more-or-less prescriptive political appeals through their academic paper. What real relationship, I've been asking myself, does this have with anything? What is the chance that this kind of gesture actually affects things?

The argument runs as follows: Beliefs can be changed through procedures of suasion, and if those beliefs change correctly, politics follows. This isn't ridiculous. But I wonder if it isn't too simple.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I guess I don't really read that kind of academic paper, though I take your word for it that it happens. In fact it would probably be a bit weird if it didn't happen. Are we talking about people like a certain gentleman whose surname may or may not start with a zed? And maybe Hitchens, Chomsky...?

Also, what's your take on the Independent's transition to emotive, tabloid-style front page articles? Seems to be an analogous, or at least related, thing. Personally I think the paper's turned into a sort hang-wringing centre-left-liberal version of the Daily Mail.

Edit: that argument's not ridiculous, but it is contingent on the rather personal and subjective nature of 'correct belief'. ;)
 
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Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
I remain unsure. But I think she does think, yes, that politics is ultimately a matter of state, and of government, and the concerted and organized forces acting upon it. Fundamentally, she thinks there is a distinction between the social and cultural, and the political. And what I wonder is a) whether she's right, and b) what this difference would consist of?

One possible answer: One of the things which I've begun to become much more wary of in recent years, in the spectacle of the professor registering more-or-less prescriptive political appeals through their academic paper. What real relationship, I've been asking myself, does this have with anything? What is the chance that this kind of gesture actually affects things?

The argument runs as follows: Beliefs can be changed through procedures of suasion, and if those beliefs change correctly, politics follows. This isn't ridiculous. But I wonder if it isn't too simple.

the boundary is very thin. both depend on abstract codes and specifically on language. Politics and the law are fundamentally anchored in the rhetorical traditions; also codes/scriptures, or value memes, but it takes on a new dimension that goes beyond language when pervasive control tech emerges: electronic identification, surveillance, military research, etc. it probably goes way beyond rhetorical suasion/influence. i think Deleuze described the control society as an invisible meshwork - maybe unconscious or subliminal influence? or is it entirely an exterior environment materialized in various forms. it sounds like conspiracy theory but pynchon, eco, kafka, r.a.w. and the rest can't be 100% wrong.

i'm divided on whether the political is a subset of culture, or vice versa, since culture would seem to depend on a structure to flourish, replicate, etc. the social/cultural is never concrete, it is strictly symbolic and never concrete (as in teh force of violence specifically). i guess one way to look at it is to try to determine whether a legal document (a constitution, a charter, etc.) structures reality more or less than a work of art, or a religious belief. if all mass commodities are destined to become garbage, the culture inscribes itself in mud, not stone. Politics requires a violent coup, art is the equivalent of fashion. But a case can be made for politics-as-fashion, or at least as marketing and public relations (same rules apply).
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Let's take a concrete historical example - the rise of the Neo-Cons in the United States. Clearly, there were larger world-historical elements in play in the background. But in the foreground what there was more primarily was a series of operations, foundations of institutions, and so on... I think it would be difficult to link these to the larger cultural landscape, though not impossible.
 

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
i agree but the neocons were a culture - they emerged out of the same ivy league schools, read the same literature (Leo Strauss),attached to the same corporate-sponsored think tanks. I think there was at least something enabling in american culture that led to the neocon takeover (which was fed by mainstream media and advertising). I think Strauss was a student of Carl Schmitt - ofc i don't subscribe to that nonsense. i prefer kojeve, the master-slave dialectic, etc.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
This is definitely true - and I think puts the finger on why this subject is quite difficult to understand.

Let me try something else. Say, you are a political activist. You are committed to a certain way of understanding the world, a certain frame of belief, a certain set of convictions. You want to impose these convictions, transmit them, put them into wider circulation. How do you do this?

Immediately, a certain number of material questions come into play. First of all, there is the issue of how adequate your understanding of the world is to present circumstances. Or maybe, not adequate, but persuasive. Certain frameworks will be resisted by the world, for various reasons. I don't think I would have that much success if I tried to convince people that the ultimate political imperative of our present moment is to, say, overthrow the lizard people.

So here is where the wider points about your socio-cultural background come into play. The socio-cultural allows for certain possibilities, and blocks certain others. It is easier to transmit certain messages then others - because of the shape of the message, because of the shape of the receiver, and so on. Someone like Alain Badiou seems to me perhaps to deny this mediological aspect, insofar as he says that politics is ultimately a matter of axioms, of insisting on axioms.

One point: Certain radicalisms (Marxism, extreme rightisms) argue that their traditions and perspectives are systematically suppressed by prevailing extant systems (capitalism, liberalism). This is worth considering, both on a rhetorical level (consider the psychological appeal of the discourse that "they don't want you to hear") as well as on a practical level - it is true that there is a certain prevailing way of understanding information instilled by the media. Though in the end this might be more formal then ideological - less important, ultimately, I think, then what you want to say, is how you want to say it.

This is kind of scattershot, but maybe someone will be able to shoot these arrows off somewhere.
 

3 Body No Problem

Well-known member
Politics = all communications pertaining to power for implementing collectively binding decisions. The guiding binary distinction of the realm of the political is that between those who have the power for forming collectively binding decsions, and those who don't. The form of differentiation of the political system is that of center/periphery, with the center being the organisations of the state, and the periphery comprising political parties and other
mechanisms for organising consensus.

Law = all communications pertaining to the lawful/unlawful binary distinction. The function of the law is to stabilise normative expectations.
 

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
i think there are different categories for different kinds of revolutions. they don't always have to be visible but the most important are 1) political revolutions on the one hand (material) and 2) socio-cultural revolutions (communication, art, language). but for a political revolution to work it has to emulate the Law in that it needs to be has to rely on the threat of violence. otherwise it is just an abstraction or a map of ideal behavior as 3 body was saying. by way of example, i think the SI and '68 were cultural, baader-meinhof was political - both failed for whatever reason. both were rooted in marxism and anti-imperialism in latin america. but i don't think you can properly criticize any of the radical leftist movements of the 20th century through marxist theory or poststructuralism, both are too flawed.

one of the gaps in marxist theory that bothers me is the idea of the aura, which changed between marx, benjamin, warhol, the postmoderns, etc. the political domain has an aura of immateriality like the commodity (reification), but that is paradoxically what makes it seem more real. I think this is one of the gaps in Marxist theory. But ofc there is infrastructure and weapons, agreed on that point. I have to wonder if the aim now shouldn't be to keep the revolutions soft/cultural/abstract/invisible and not political or destructive. many reasons for this.
 
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josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
baader-meinhof was political

I question this... Baader-Meinhof certainly believed they were political. But there was a big hole in their political theorizing - it was never precisely clear how their actions were ever going to translate into real political change, in anything other than negative way - that is, through a police state crackdown, which is in fact broadly what happened.

For me, the model of the political actor in the twentieth century has to be Gandhi. Why? Because he put his finger quite precisely on where the pressure points were, and then... did *nothing*, and the political situation reorganized itself accordingly.

BM were spectacular politics, the politics that says: "We are political actors, we are doing political things." Real political actors don't do that...
 

vimothy

yurp
Just like AQ -- have a look at the Roy paper I posted in that thread. He adresses exactly this point -- that spectacular youth violence (be it AQ or RAF) is ostensibly political but really driven by social networks (cf Sageman) and narrative.
 
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