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tryptych
10-12-2008, 12:23 AM
When martin blackdown first mentioned funky house on dissensus a while back, people seemed to think it referred to bland, MOR house played in bars in the west end.

The stuff that Geeneus etc are dropping now seems a long way from that - are they two separate genres, or have they met in the middle?

DJ PIMP
10-12-2008, 06:44 AM
bland

.

zhao
10-12-2008, 07:15 AM
When martin blackdown first mentioned funky house on dissensus a while back, people seemed to think it referred to bland, MOR house played in bars in the west end.

The stuff that Geeneus etc are dropping now seems a long way from that - are they two separate genres, or have they met in the middle?

or maybe artists split from the same "return to the dance", initial impulse --- some doing more housey ethereal, some (re) infusing it with the menace.

volumes is indeed serious bizniss... into the future is massive. some of his production, like Make Me and Yellowtail, reminds me, not necessarily in form, but in feeling, a little bit of the early photek productions. the cleanliness, the tightness, the minimalist pallette, the "dryer" style of composition: like things turning round and round in a dryer, with no beginning or end.
but was it my sleep deprived self having a first listen or is the mix CD kinda rubbish? seems like he put it together in one go, while drunk, sloppily slapping tunes on top of eachother...

Blackdown
10-12-2008, 07:52 AM
When martin blackdown first mentioned funky house on dissensus a while back, people seemed to think it referred to bland, MOR house played in bars in the west end.

The stuff that Geeneus etc are dropping now seems a long way from that - are they two separate genres, or have they met in the middle?

kinda.

funky house = 4x4 descendent of disco. now mostly generic dance music. see Defected, Ibiza etc

funky = recent offshoot of this by the UK garage demographic, often with rawer sounds and varied percussion, thoughs still lots of the housier vocal elements too.

elgato
10-12-2008, 09:20 AM
to complicate the discussion a bit, i don't think its that simple though. i think there is a degree to which people previously underestimated what was going on within commercial house... for example, the fact that Kode 9 is playing a DJ Gregory tune off Defected from 2006 speaks volumes in my opinion (not about the worth of DJ Gregory but the underestimation of that stuff and the u-turns taking place). true that tune is more 'deep' house maybe but i do think that the characterisation of everything on those big labels or from that world being bland tasteful bollocks was and is a generalisation, even if it holds broadly. i hold my hands up though as i was previously wholehearted in my rejection of it

there is also no denying that many uk producers and djs are very much into and still play the US stuff off those big labels, i think they still have a very big role in the way the uk sound is developing

tryptych
10-12-2008, 09:42 AM
to complicate the discussion a bit, i don't think its that simple though. i think there is a degree to which people previously underestimated what was going on within commercial house... for example, the fact that Kode 9 is playing a DJ Gregory tune off Defected from 2006 speaks volumes in my opinion (not about the worth of DJ Gregory but the underestimation of that stuff and the u-turns taking place). true that tune is more 'deep' house maybe but i do think that the characterisation of everything on those big labels or from that world being bland tasteful bollocks was and is a generalisation, even if it holds broadly. i hold my hands up though as i was previously wholehearted in my rejection of it

there is also no denying that many uk producers and djs are very much into and still play the US stuff off those big labels, i think they still have a very big role in the way the uk sound is developing

That's exactly what I'm talking about - I've never paid much attention to the whole Defected/Hed Kandi etc type house, but it's interesting if people are playing and/or influenced by it still.

boomnoise
10-12-2008, 10:35 AM
At the funky night i was at on sunday the ratio of uk tracks to non uk tracks was about 5:1 And that one record was often a DJ Gregory bit or something on defected. Before the uk sound came about I’m assuming funky nights were made up entirely of that sound, possibly bordering on the bar music stereotypes. And I’m guessing this was a certain generation’s introduction to house music, post ukg and grime. So producers took it and tried to put their own stamp on it.

I see uk funky as sort of a product of producers aspirations in reaction to the relative commercial failures of grime, hip hop and rnb in the uk. A lot of producers show a lot of reverence to house but it’s certainly not the prepackaged bar music variety. It's unclear to see how deep the reference points go into house history. But you can see the appeal in relation to the other forums which have dominated London raves. The slick and polished production of house and its solid and independent commercial backbone I think has made it something worthy of further exploration. There is far more production kudos attached to making house than there is grime or electro even. Interestingly Lil Silva was saying on Cameo’s show last night that he tried the grime ting, the ukg thing but those scenes weren’t going anywhere so he got on house.

Relating that to the convergence of trad funky house and uk funky house I think the meeting point is London and the rave. Yet again its cultural mix injecting the essential ingredients, drawing on producers’ African and Caribbean heritages in combination with the history of London urban music over the past 15 or so years.

And i have to agree Elgato. Its taken London to get hold of it to warrant attention for a lot of people. Do you think it's possible to pinpoint a time when defected style house became uncool? Or moreover a time when it became a victim of snobbery in this context? Surely for a lot of people, including me, it ran tangentially with uk garage gaining popularity? It's certainly very interesting how house is reintegrating itself back into london urban music in a second (third?) reappropriation.

Sorry for the muddled thoughts – bashing this out at work. ALTTAB bizness.

Elijah
10-12-2008, 12:49 PM
Must be confusing for the general consumer, they think of Bodyrox and Fedde Le Grande when they think of Funky house, hard to imagine how that has a similar name to Emotions or Yellowtail. The Geeneus, Soulja and Supa D Interview cleared a lot of stuff up for me.

When i talk about it with people I just call the uk stuff funky, and the 'real' stuff house.

I think that is the way to go so people dont get confused init.

hint
10-12-2008, 12:54 PM
Its taken London to get hold of it to warrant attention for a lot of people. Do you think it's possible to pinpoint a time when defected style house became uncool? Or moreover a time when it became a victim of snobbery in this context?

It's that knee-jerk reaction to 4x4 that you find amongst fans of rave / jungle / hip hop. Beat snobbery.

"Modern House = 4x4 = Boring"

Meanwhile, the likes of Defected and Strictly Rhythm have been putting out a wide variety of House styles for years, and the idea that such labels have been ahead of the curve becomes a hard pill to swallow for some.

UFO over easy
10-12-2008, 01:18 PM
It's that knee-jerk reaction to 4x4 that you find amongst fans of rave / jungle / hip hop. Beat snobbery.

"Modern House = 4x4 = Boring"


that was me until only six months ago or so as well, i would've been keen to distance the raw uk stuff from the rest, out of embarrassment more than anything else... but the more i hear the more it seems as though even though yellowtail etc is sonically dissimilar to a lot of that kind of output it still couldn't exist without it

turning point for me was hearing how completely next some strictly/maw etc records were in the early 90s, it made it easier to approach newer stuff on those labels without the preconceptions i had before. could probably pinpoint it, if i had to, to d1 playing bass tone at the last house party rave. i do feel slightly foolish basically writing off something so huge i gotta say

Grievous Angel
10-12-2008, 01:25 PM
Lots of house music has always been fantastic.

Tense Nervous House Music Volume 2. (http://www.grievousangel.net/TenseNervousHouseMusicVol2.mp3.zip)

boomnoise
10-12-2008, 01:26 PM
me too.

is there a support group?

is this it?

:P

i think another question is what exactly is 'funky' in the context of uk house and the none uk house that is getting played in sets.

house is a quagmire of genre nuances and i dont want to march through that swamp so much as quickly think about the sonic signifiers; i mean, it's more than bongos, right? both the terms uk funky and uk house are getting thrown about. where is and what is the funk now london has got hold of it?

Grievous Angel
10-12-2008, 02:06 PM
Souljah: "We're going to a funky rave, a funky dance"

gremino
10-12-2008, 02:12 PM
We should start a "Don't fear the cheese-movement" :cool:

I think house as it's strongest is just pure vibe, pure athmosphere, where the beats becomes secondary, and it's all about the big picture.

It's like house's attitude is about long varying tracks, combined with percussive dj-tools. I'm not an expert about house, but for me this sounds ideal. Though there's alot different house genres, so this sounds more deep house.

I think when making dubstep/jungle/dnb in that kind of house-attitude, is not about 4x4 beats or general laidback-vibe, but about long varying tracks with strong vibe. And when djing, percussive dj-tools to make build-ups, for accapellas etc. would be part of that house-attitude.

gyto
10-12-2008, 02:14 PM
that was me until only six months ago or so as well, i would've been keen to distance the raw uk stuff from the rest, out of embarrassment more than anything else... but the more i hear the more it seems as though even though yellowtail etc is sonically dissimilar to a lot of that kind of output it still couldn't exist without it

turning point for me was hearing how completely next some strictly/maw etc records were in the early 90s, it made it easier to approach newer stuff on those labels without the preconceptions i had before. could probably pinpoint it, if i had to, to d1 playing bass tone at the last house party rave. i do feel slightly foolish basically writing off something so huge i gotta say

x2

Blackdown
10-12-2008, 02:44 PM
I see uk funky as sort of a product of producers aspirations in reaction to the relative commercial failures of grime...

i think you need to be careful about what you mean here. sure grime raves = failure, there's no money in them for all the different reasons we've covered before (hello Trident). but grime artists = increasingly in better health than ever right now.

to me funky is a product of grime's failure to be danceable and to cater for elements of its audience that dont want something so sonically hardcore. i'm not sure that's commercial failure, explicitly.



Interestingly Lil Silva was saying on Cameo’s show last night that he tried the grime ting, the ukg thing but those scenes weren’t going anywhere so he got on house.

or, if you ask certain other insiders, they failed in grime and ukg so moved to funky.

i'd also defend the crit of commercial house tho. being on a board like Dissensus and reading blogs a lot i think you could be easily mistaken for thinking dubstep or grime are larger than they are. but one look at the vast spralling commercial dance industries up north/in ibiza etc gives you a sense of the scale and medocrity around.

mms
10-12-2008, 02:49 PM
house is much more than 4 4 dance music, you know like dubstep is more than wobble.
I have never understood why people have been against house perse, but i can see how some people might think all house is shit cos some of it is.

this is house
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dOeu1H5yfN4
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=C6V9WBTJlhw
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YL7npL4pKpc&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F1v4g9T4g5g&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_UlhLd76IzQ&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Nee7z3da0
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4Um2rnZq9t4

to me anyway

Krasner
10-12-2008, 03:00 PM
i'd also defend the crit of commercial house tho. being on a board like Dissensus and reading blogs a lot i think you could be easily mistaken for thinking dubstep or grime are larger than they are. but one look at the vast spralling commercial dance industries up north/in ibiza etc gives you a sense of the scale and medocrity around.

Sure, a lot of the Strictly Rhythm/'Ibiza' style house is exceedingly mediocre dancefloor filler. But I think the problem is that there is a reasonable amount of good music in that scene that has been written off by association.

If you’d asked me six months ago what I thought about this particular strain of House I would’ve probably dismissed out of hand. But the emergence of Funky has made me revaluate my opinions. The new urban context has really brought how interesting and, perhaps more importantly, rough some of that stuff can be. For instance Marcus Nasty dropping US house tunes like Conan Liquid ‘One Time for Your Mind’ has been a revelation.

boomnoise
10-12-2008, 03:02 PM
i think you need to be careful about what you mean here. sure grime raves = failure, there's no money in them for all the different reasons we've covered before (hello Trident). but grime artists = increasingly in better health than ever right now.

to me funky is a product of grime's failure to be danceable and to cater for elements of its audience that dont want something so sonically hardcore. i'm not sure that's commercial failure, explicitly.




or, if you ask certain other insiders, they failed in grime and ukg so moved to funky.

i'd also defend the crit of commercial house tho. being on a board like Dissensus and reading blogs a lot i think you could be easily mistaken for thinking dubstep or grime are larger than they are. but one look at the vast spralling commercial dance industries up north/in ibiza etc gives you a sense of the scale and medocrity around.

yeah, there are certainly supply and demand issues here. and i'm not trying to say anything against grime. I can just pick out a few funky producers who were particularly not feeling the vibe grime brought post ukg and saw house as something more deserving of their time and talents. perhaps they failed at it, who's to know. it's all totally loaded with preferences and value judgements obviously but i was just trying to communicate that i think for a handful of producers, house is seen as being more prestigious.

i dont think anyone is trying to deny the sheer about of wankhouse out there :P

Blackdown
10-12-2008, 03:16 PM
house is much more than 4 4 dance music, you know like dubstep is more than wobble.

sorry, i think i've been permanently damaged in one ear by working at Ministry (mag) and in the other by dribbling deep house purists who act like Naked Music is the pinacle of sound.

i'm not saying all house = bad, i love my Trax, Theo Parrish, Romanthony and Moodyman records to the core, but by volume (and house sure has volume) surely i'm allowed to say vast swathes of it is generic, dull or commercial? Put a donk in it?!

mms
10-12-2008, 03:23 PM
sorry, i think i've been permanently damaged in one ear by working at Ministry (mag) and in the other by dribbling deep house purists who act like Naked Music is the pinacle of sound.

i'm not saying all house = bad, i love my Trax, Theo Parrish, Romanthony and Moodyman records to the core, but by volume (and house sure has volume) surely i'm allowed to say vast swathes of it is generic, dull or commercial? Put a donk in it?!

yeah i wasn't arguing there isn't loads of horrible shit out there as that would be silly, or that deep house isn't as boring as any other generic dance music, god knows i've walked into a house shop and not been able to find a single record i like as my experience of house music is so different to the people who like the kinda music that doesn't take any chances, funky has a lineage in british house history, stuff like bleep recrds in sheffield and leeds etc if you ask me, id call them house records, they always did themselves.

elgato
10-12-2008, 03:34 PM
i think you need to be careful about what you mean here. sure grime raves = failure, there's no money in them for all the different reasons we've covered before (hello Trident). but grime artists = increasingly in better health than ever right now.

to me funky is a product of grime's failure to be danceable and to cater for elements of its audience that dont want something so sonically hardcore. i'm not sure that's commercial failure, explicitly.

i don't think sonically hardcore is fair, it seems to me to be more about vibe i.e. an audience that doesn't want something so aggressive and tensely focused. thats not to me about sonics its surely more about social dynamics. the most common complaints of grime / fears for funky im seeing are of having too many mcs in a rave and everyone just focused on them, or aggressive men / boys dominating raves (although im obviously not going to try to claim that no-one into house prefers smoother sounds! its just a matter of emphasis)

also perhaps its impatience but i do think there must be some sense that grime has failed to create a sustainable independent infrastructure (obviously it goes without saying that police / media / broad expectations have played a major role in this). i think more and more there are signs of it getting there but it would be easy (if you didnt look hard enough) just to see lots of individuals or small crews reaching for majors rather than building an independent infrastructure comparable to what US or soulful house scenes seem to have


i'd also defend the crit of commercial house tho. being on a board like Dissensus and reading blogs a lot i think you could be easily mistaken for thinking dubstep or grime are larger than they are. but one look at the vast spralling commercial dance industries up north/in ibiza etc gives you a sense of the scale and medocrity around.

yeh but for me the point is about generalisations... framed like that it puts Kenny Dope or Osunlade next to Benny Benassi or whoever, and rejects their value on that basis. and to look at Defected's discography i cant believe anything but that these are people who have a consistent and dedicated vision for the music that they love, not led by commerce in the way some labels seem to be (sleazy videos, re-releases of whatever hits big on the independents etc). they obviously have an advanced and considerable business (which may be an another issue of course), but i do think its a different kettle of fish to the likes of Ministry

UFO over easy
10-12-2008, 03:41 PM
making me feel guilty and unsure about buying the bootlegs again now ben... :confused:

slackk
10-12-2008, 04:23 PM
making me feel guilty and unsure about buying the bootlegs again now ben... :confused:

If it wasn't so hard to get hold of some of them on vinyl unless they're 2nd hand and overpriced, this would be a +1

elgato
10-12-2008, 04:35 PM
making me feel guilty and unsure about buying the bootlegs again now ben... :confused:

lol but i think they're doing alright for themselves man. plus i am just speculating

blackdown to clarify in case it seems that way i don't mean to be having a go, just interested in discussion etc

hint
10-12-2008, 04:46 PM
i'm not saying all house = bad, i love my Trax, Theo Parrish, Romanthony and Moodyman records to the core, but by volume (and house sure has volume) surely i'm allowed to say vast swathes of it is generic, dull or commercial? Put a donk in it?!

The vast majority of Dubstep is generic and dull. Sure, you can multiply the numbers by 4 for the week-on-week new House releases, but the balance is similar.

I think what people are discussing is this misguided idea that it's suddenly OK ("cool") to like modern House because something has changed in the music. When it comes to Funky, it's the DJs and audience that have changed the most, not the genre.

It's putting up signposts directing people to an existing area of natural beauty. :)

Elijah
10-12-2008, 05:03 PM
to me funky is a product of grime's failure to be danceable and to cater for elements of its audience that dont want something so sonically hardcore.

Nail on the head.

Corpsey
10-12-2008, 05:32 PM
I like the smoove stuff it breaks up the grimey stuff nicely.

Grievous Angel
10-12-2008, 06:51 PM
Nail on the head.

gyal tunes

Alfons
10-12-2008, 10:37 PM
to look at Defected's discography i cant believe anything but that these are people who have a consistent and dedicated vision for the music that they love, not led by commerce in the way some labels seem to be (sleazy videos, re-releases of whatever hits big on the independents etc). they obviously have an advanced and considerable business (which may be an another issue of course), but i do think its a different kettle of fish to the likes of Ministry

Really? Defected? Strictly Rhythm sure, but Defected doesn't look like its driven by passion first and foremost to me, just seem to pick up whatever they think will make a buck.



I think what people are discussing is this misguided idea that it's suddenly OK ("cool") to like modern House because something has changed in the music. When it comes to Funky, it's the DJs and audience that have changed the most, not the genre.

It's putting up signposts directing people to an existing area of natural beauty. :)

this sounds right to me. But were there really electronic music people who knew their stuff and didn't make distinctions between Theo Parrish and Fedde LeGrand until 08?

Ory
10-12-2008, 11:15 PM
isn't Strictly Rhythm a sublabel of Defected?

elgato
10-12-2008, 11:23 PM
Really? Defected? Strictly Rhythm sure, but Defected doesn't look like its driven by passion first and foremost to me, just seem to pick up whatever they think will make a buck.

this sounds right to me. But were there really electronic music people who knew their stuff and didn't make distinctions between Theo Parrish and Fedde LeGrand until 08?

maybe you're right about Defected i dunno, it is speculation... just the consistency of their discography suggests to me that they're not just in it for cash, although they've obviously done well for themselves. but yeh maybe i was getting carried away! maybe they just understand branding and don't care about the music... most likely its somewhere in between i guess. either way im not really one for those kinds of approaches to music, im just interested in looking at something i've long had single-minded views on from a different perspective

Theo Parrish and Fedde LeGrand is one thing, but Theo Parrish occupies quite a different space in the scheme of things to the stuff being discussed i think, people like Kings of Tomorrow, Dennis Ferrer etc or indeed DJ Gregory

doom
11-12-2008, 01:08 AM
I think trying to 2nd guess the bussiness motives etc. of people is a dead end street.

Unless someone knows people @ Defected/Hed Kandi HQ & knows for certain they spend there days snorting coke, listening to Tom Jones & only putting money into tunes they think will make em more money. I can only assume that like most people they feel that if you love what you do for a living you'll never work a day in your life. Being succesfull is nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm sure to anarchist breakcore militants Ammunition would appear to be a cold hearted, cynical money making machine.


But were there really electronic music people who knew their stuff and didn't make distinctions between Theo Parrish and Fedde LeGrand until 08?

The 4x4 snobs I've met 'round town still wouldn't make the distinction.


If anyone is feeling guilty about buying bootlegs, you can buy all them ones off traxsource (who are now selling wavs!) so if anyone asks you cut them yourself ;)

Tim F
11-12-2008, 01:47 AM
Referencing Theo Parrish kinds distorts the issue I think - he's further away from the mainstream of house than funky (even Lil' Silva) is.

There's a lot of quality US house that funky pretty openly draws from - not just early MAW but late MAW ("Work" from 2001 is a big adopted funky track), Dennis Ferrer and Quentin Harris and Kerri Chandler and DJ Gregory etc. etc.

Also you know you can hate on Fedde De Grand and the like but he's done some great records - "Let Me Think About It" is one of the best commercial house tracks of the last few years.

Alfons
11-12-2008, 09:40 AM
maybe you're right about Defected i dunno, it is speculation... just the consistency of their discography suggests to me that they're not just in it for cash, although they've obviously done well for themselves. but yeh maybe i was getting carried away! maybe they just understand branding and don't care about the music... most likely its somewhere in between i guess. either way im not really one for those kinds of approaches to music, im just interested in looking at something i've long had single-minded views on from a different perspective

Theo Parrish and Fedde LeGrand is one thing, but Theo Parrish occupies quite a different space in the scheme of things to the stuff being discussed i think, people like Kings of Tomorrow, Dennis Ferrer etc or indeed DJ Gregory


I think trying to 2nd guess the bussiness motives etc. of people is a dead end street.

Unless someone knows people @ Defected/Hed Kandi HQ & knows for certain they spend there days snorting coke, listening to Tom Jones & only putting money into tunes they think will make em more money. I can only assume that like most people they feel that if you love what you do for a living you'll never work a day in your life. Being succesfull is nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm sure to anarchist breakcore militants Ammunition would appear to be a cold hearted, cynical money making machine.


True, maybe my point is more about how big defected really is and how they pick up tracks from smaller labels and make hits (i.e. act more like the big major labels than a passionate indie).


Referencing Theo Parrish kinds distorts the issue I think - he's further away from the mainstream of house than funky (even Lil' Silva) is.


Yeah, maybe it was a poor choice of examples, but my general point was that to me it seems weird that people that are into electronic music are not aware that house represents very wide spectrum (perhaps this is more relevant concerning the average dissensian than the recent street level funky convert).

elgato
11-12-2008, 11:12 AM
im going to find myself arguing something i really don't believe in here but for the purposes of fair debate i feel the point needs to be raised...

a commonly raised complaint of injustice or frustration in relation to underground / independent artists or scenes is that all they do (or can do) is bring out 500 on a small label without great distribution, and they get nowhere from it. there is a constant call for more independent organisation, more infrastructure and support etc... it seems to me that Defected basically represent an achievement of this - yeh they sign released material, and make hits. but in doing so they give underground, genuine artists revenue and platform, while retaining a dedication to a specific type and vibe of music.

but this is all kind of by the by, and indeed i for one am strong on the romantic ideals of 500 white labels or general disorganisation, and the detachment of music from making cash or a living. but then i don't want to make music my living, and don't feel like i have to. and the regularity with which i see people despairing or frustrated with the lack or organisation or business thinking in the underground in my mind sits ill at ease with the rejection of something like Defected

but the real point here i think is that it seems that within certain circles there is a widespread reconsideration of the value of a lot of music that previously has been rejected out of hand


Yeah, maybe it was a poor choice of examples, but my general point was that to me it seems weird that people that are into electronic music are not aware that house represents very wide spectrum (perhaps this is more relevant concerning the average dissensian than the recent street level funky convert).

i honestly think that people did and still do (myself included i am sure) break it into inappropriately large segments and then embrace or dismiss a lot of music on that basis.

elgato
11-12-2008, 11:18 AM
isn't Strictly Rhythm a sublabel of Defected?

only now, it was only recently brought back into being by Defected, it used to be its own label

Alfons
11-12-2008, 12:57 PM
im going to find myself arguing something i really don't believe in here but for the purposes of fair debate i feel the point needs to be raised...

a commonly raised complaint of injustice or frustration in relation to underground / independent artists or scenes is that all they do (or can do) is bring out 500 on a small label without great distribution, and they get nowhere from it. there is a constant call for more independent organisation, more infrastructure and support etc... it seems to me that Defected basically represent an achievement of this - yeh they sign released material, and make hits. but in doing so they give underground, genuine artists revenue and platform, while retaining a dedication to a specific type and vibe of music.

but this is all kind of by the by, and indeed i for one am strong on the romantic ideals of 500 white labels or general disorganisation, and the detachment of music from making cash or a living. but then i don't want to make music my living, and don't feel like i have to. and the regularity with which i see people despairing or frustrated with the lack or organisation or business thinking in the underground in my mind sits ill at ease with the rejection of something like Defected

but the real point here i think is that it seems that within certain circles there is a widespread reconsideration of the value of a lot of music that previously has been rejected out of hand


i honestly think that people did and still do (myself included i am sure) break it into inappropriately large segments and then embrace or dismiss a lot of music on that basis.

I'd agree with you, Im not against Defected or the way they do business (hopefully opening up cashflow to the underground artists they break and treat them better than the majors do). I was just making the point that defected doesn't strike me as a label with underground motivations and passions, but like someone mentioned upthread, their real motives are hard to distinguish from the outside and frankly it doesn't even matter

with regards to the offhand dismissal of house, that suprises me, Ive only been getting really into house and techno in the last 3-4 years, but I seem to remember not thinking it was all drivel before that and having the idea that it was a broad spectrum with good and bad parts. In a way I saw it much like hip hop. Maybe I just thought that my view was more generally shared. I probably have my fair share of uninformed bias and prejudice against different genres as well

boomnoise
11-12-2008, 12:59 PM
How long until the first UK funky defected release?

Bang Diddley
11-12-2008, 01:15 PM
yeah i wasn't arguing there isn't loads of horrible shit out there as that would be silly, or that deep house isn't as boring as any other generic dance music, god knows i've walked into a house shop and not been able to find a single record i like as my experience of house music is so different to the people who like the kinda music that doesn't take any chances, funky has a lineage in british house history, stuff like bleep recrds in sheffield and leeds etc if you ask me, id call them house records, they always did themselves.

Sonically (not rhythmically) this is what ive thought about Grime since I first heard it. The bleeps, the big bass and snares. I haven't heard a lot of funky but there was one mix, a recent Spiro one maybe that I thought yeah this is similar to early british house. I wonder how many of these guys listen to that or are aware of it. Wasn't there a tune which sampled LFO ?

boomnoise
11-12-2008, 01:25 PM
I'd agree but the sonic lineage is clearly a huge melting pot. You can hear 80s funk and rare groove, 80-90s nyc house, deep and otherwise, as well as acid and 'ardcore. This is what's making it exciting. It's really opened up house to a lot of (new) ears and perspectives.

Tune of note on the lfo / bleepy thing has to be Mr Roach and total confusion.

Bang Diddley
11-12-2008, 01:38 PM
I'd agree but the sonic lineage is clearly a huge melting pot. You can hear 80s funk and rare groove, 80-90s nyc house, deep and otherwise, as well as acid and 'ardcore. This is what's making it exciting. It's really opened up house to a lot of (new) ears and perspectives.

Tune of note on the lfo / bleepy thing has to be Mr Roach and total confusion.

Yeah I think urban youth will bring something new and raw to it. And the fact now it is seen as acceptable to listen to house with the badman crew :) Loads of my mates stopped listening to house and techno back in the day and moved to hip hop. And now it seems it all coming around again. :cool:

shiels
11-12-2008, 01:39 PM
Tune of note on the lfo / bleepy thing has to be Mr Roach and total confusion.

where can i hear this?

faustus
11-12-2008, 01:58 PM
where can i hear this?

was on footloose's show a couple of weeks ago - i posted a download link in the funky thread i guess around the end of november?

boomnoise
11-12-2008, 02:02 PM
on footloose again this week as it goes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/footloose/

shiels
11-12-2008, 02:15 PM
Hmm, bad use of the sample imo, i'd rather hear LFO.

Badga Tek
11-12-2008, 03:28 PM
i honestly think that people did and still do (myself included i am sure) break it into inappropriately large segments and then embrace or dismiss a lot of music on that basis.

And, yet, this is perhaps an inevitability. 4x4 dance music is such a huge swarming (foreboding even) mass of sub-genres, labels and 'faceless' producers (the relatively common practice of using their full names rather than an alias can make it difficult, at face value, to remember who's who) that its incredibly difficult to get a foothold on the various scenes. The amount of effort required to keep up with whats coming out and whats going on within the various 4x4 scenes would be staggering.

Surely, its incredibly difficult to do anything other than generalise about huge swathes of 4x4. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could plenty of good tracks within the happy hardcore or scouse house scenes, for example (ie. 4x4 sub-genres very widely completely written off). But most people don't have the time to look into it closely.

Its great that people are discovering some good stuff within the funky house scene but this has only come about because a load of grime heads have jumped on to the sound and started mutating it and, perhaps more importantly, UKG stalwarts like Geeneus, Kode9 and, to a lesser extent, Marcus Nasty have helped promote it.

(Allow the muddledness. I don't normally write long forum posts)

UFO over easy
11-12-2008, 03:59 PM
Its great that people are discovering some good stuff within the funky house scene but this has only come about because a load of grime heads have jumped on to the sound and started mutating it and, perhaps more importantly, UKG stalwarts like Geeneus, Kode9 and, to a lesser extent, Marcus Nasty have helped promote it.

yeah for our demographic that is possibly true (can't speak for elgato or anyone else in this thread) but that's because it's our background, and we're projecting it to what we're listening to now. it's a comfort thing, something which im sure will dissipate the deeper in we get

you can say that for a few of us but house music is bigger than that and people like kenny dope/maw/karizma/dennis ferrer etc are very successful and would be huge without the support of the figures you mention. their tunes were (presumably) being played by loads of DJs in funky raves before there was an established uk focal point, and being raved to by loads of people in london before kode 9 and before marcus nasty.

it's tempting to see it like how you say and it's difficult to get a balanced view when we're so immersed in other musics, but there are so many elements in this that have helped a community emerge i think it would be a mistake (or even just a bit boring) to boil it down to just one of those, even given the obvious significance of mak 10/marcus nasty/geeneus emerging as leading figures in that community. it would be a shame to separate uk stuff from all the other more established sick dancefloor house music just on the basis of peoples backgrounds

Grievous Angel
11-12-2008, 06:59 PM
Yes, but the reawakening of interest in 4x4 is evidence of the endless self-regenerating fertility of both the 'nuum and of house music itself.

Badga Tek
12-12-2008, 09:00 AM
I think that last bit came out sounding more critical than I meant it to.

I meant that while its good that people are discovering that actually not all "trad" funky house should be dismissed, it doesn't change the fact that people do, and will always continue to do so, write off huge swathes of 4x4.

Who knows maybe in a few years some London youngers will start incorporating psytrance sounds into some new 'nuum mutation and we're all start talking about how actually all those old Infected Mushroom records are really good. Stranger things have happened.

mms
12-12-2008, 10:55 AM
played out old uk bleep stuff andf nyc house into funky and a bit of duke dumont etc, into garage into dubstep and grime last night.
People just thought the funky stuff was either african ( african guy came up to me and said this is african house) or they thought it was house or garage, some dickhead was screwing me wanting straight garage, ( which i had a bit of on me in a small amount), i crossed old 4 4 garage with the funky stuff, the garage is warmer and bassier, but its a nice contrast.

shiels
12-12-2008, 11:32 AM
Sounds good mms, you have any mixes online in a similar vein?

mms
12-12-2008, 01:13 PM
Sounds good mms, you have any mixes online in a similar vein?

no i haven't got my stuff set up like that, i should though.

gremino
12-12-2008, 04:11 PM
Who knows maybe in a few years some London youngers will start incorporating psytrance sounds into some new 'nuum mutation and we're all start talking about how actually all those old Infected Mushroom records are really good. Stranger things have happened.
You never know!!

Though I think that'll happen only if "new 'ardkore" borns. It seems that new nuum mutations are always from black music, but psytrance is white. 'Ardkore sampled from belgian rave which was white, so maybe the new one takes influences from hardhouse, hardstyle, nu-style gabber which are quite much lineage from belgian rave sound right? OR, much more interesting would be if that white influence would be psytrance, because that kind of influences nuum music haven't still took. It would be a mixture of black & white.

We'll see if coming years recession creates a new '92...

bassbeyondreason
12-12-2008, 05:40 PM
I tried making some grimey trance over the summer (I love psytrance in theory, it's just the actual music I hate). Also, not necessarily psytrance, but the trance influence that's around in a lot of soca/dancehall/rap these days is bound to filter in somehow.

DJ PIMP
13-12-2008, 10:33 PM
We'll see if coming years recession creates a new '92...

hasn't this already been happening for a bit this year and last? you've got people like:

rico tubbs
fukkk offf
jots
brodinski
fake blood
crookers
etc

there's lots of old skool sounds freshened up (stabs, breaks, pitched sampled chords), non-linear track structure etc etc.

even something like zzt - the worm, is a real old school bass techno grinder...

there's a good tiga live set from a big recent rave in denmark. high mental factor.... Can't find a link but it's Tiga - Sensation White - Denmark 11-15-08.

mms
14-12-2008, 01:54 PM
hasn't this already been happening for a bit this year and last? you've got people like:

rico tubbs
fukkk offf
jots
brodinski
fake blood
crookers
etc

there's lots of old skool sounds freshened up (stabs, breaks, pitched sampled chords), non-linear track structure etc etc.

even something like zzt - the worm, is a real old school bass techno grinder...

there's a good tiga live set from a big recent rave in denmark. high mental factor.... Can't find a link but it's Tiga - Sensation White - Denmark 11-15-08.

alot of that stuff is all really unpleasant mid range abrasive 'being shouted at' basslines though, the sound of beer and coke, worst of modern 'loudness wars' compressed into the mids rock dynamics transplanted for god knows what reason onto dance music.

DJ PIMP
14-12-2008, 06:04 PM
alot of that stuff is all really unpleasant mid range abrasive 'being shouted at' basslines though, the sound of beer and coke, worst of modern 'loudness wars' compressed into the mids rock dynamics transplanted for god knows what reason onto dance music.

yes and no

shiels
14-12-2008, 06:23 PM
alot of that stuff is all really unpleasant mid range abrasive 'being shouted at' basslines though, the sound of beer and coke, worst of modern 'loudness wars' compressed into the mids rock dynamics transplanted for god knows what reason onto dance music.

Well put, i'd agree. OVER HERE!!!11 music. the likes of Crookers and Fake Blood are like Caspa & Rusko in that their tunes are good once if you're drunk enough but i wouldn't go back for repeat listens, very little feeling or subtlety. This sort of stuff is the diametric opposite to uber-clinical, no risk, no climax minimal.

Corpsey
14-12-2008, 06:48 PM
alot of that stuff is all really unpleasant mid range abrasive 'being shouted at' basslines though, the sound of beer and coke, worst of modern 'loudness wars' compressed into the mids rock dynamics transplanted for god knows what reason onto dance music.

This is kind of how I feel about a lot of the stuff Sinden/Herve play, you've managed to describe that 'I can't put my finger on what annoys me about it' quality that I haven't been able to... The compression is an issue, although I wasn't sure if that was just because I'd downloaded the Sinden/Herve essential mix and Radio 1 compresses things to fuck anyway.

I do like some of the tunes though.

mms
14-12-2008, 07:36 PM
yes and no

yeah i did say alot of, some of this stuff, duke dumont, some of switch's stuff, that 8 ball stuff etc i like, but i do get the feeling that this screaming midrange dynamic also to an extent a symptom of mp3 djing, digital only production etc, alot of the warmth has been lost in the process, a whole range of frequencies have been sacrificed for a kind of in your face rock punchyness, and i don't really want to go out and get punched. Also dancing has suffered as a result too !;)

Corpsey
14-12-2008, 08:19 PM
We'll see if coming years recession creates a new '92...

I've been wondering about this myself.

Does hard times = better music?

bassbeyondreason
14-12-2008, 08:44 PM
I suspect a lot of the "champagne" elements in funky might take a backseat as realities get further away from that, but on the other hand, there's always the possibility that they'll be amplified as an escapism type thing. Time will tell.