On Fairy tales

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
It's funny, when I read Victorian novels like Dickens it seems that back then it was considered good form for parents to use monsters and goblins and other horror stories to scare kids into submission.

That one lullaby is pretty dark--rock-a-bye baby falls from a tree?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I also have a huge problem with a lot of Disney films, at least the princess-based fairytales, for what are probably obvious reasons.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
the older version of each story you go the darker, more gruesome it gets. but the sanitized disney fascism is not better.

i worked on a "year end promotion" video for disney once (you can see it in the design link in my sig - design/motion/disney year end), and the creative brief was "unstoppable, glorious, heroic, and universal". and during the meeting i said "oh, like Lenny Riefenstahl" -- but no one at the 8+ people meeting got it -- people who work at disney are some of the most ignorant and stupid right wing over weight assholes in the entertainment industry. you should hear a bunch of older creative professionals sit around on coffee break, horror stories about working there are endless.

and this just in last week, Hitler loved disney and made fan-art:

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/02/23/adolf-hitler-disney.html
http://www.lofotenkrigmus.no/e_akvarell.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1579629/Did-Adolf-Hitler-draw-Disney-characters.html

makes sense dont it.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Anyone heard a story about some Disney employees making an animation of Snow White having a gang bang with the seven dwarves for Walt's birthday? Apparently he laughed his socks off when he saw it and asked who it was that had made it - when he found out he fired everyone involved. Anyone else ever heard that? Wonder if it's true...
Anyway, fairy tales are dark and nasty but don't kids love that kind of stuff? I reckon I did when I was little and surely that explains the popularity of Roald Dahl. I suppose the issue is not whether they like it but whether it's "good" for them but I'm not sure that Cinderella made me think that women should be in the kitchen any more than it made me think that a pumpkin could turn into a carriage. Of course there are outdated attitudes in fairy tales (they are old after all) but there are outdated attitudes in loads of stuff and we don't censor Shakespeare or whatever - I guess the difference is that we are talking about children now and that gets everyone excited.
I think that even as a kind of adult I really like films and other things that achieve that fairy tale feel, particularly if it has a slight edge to it - I suppose I'm thinking of things such as Valerie and Her Week of Wonders but there must be loads (any tips welcome by the way). I've also got a soft spot for the magical drawings of Rackham, Dulac and others which, to me, somehow convey a slight kind of otherworldly strangeness although they are not actually unpleasant in themselves like some of the stories compiled by Grimm.
 

polystyle

Well-known member
I reckon kids can benefit from some bits of darkness to go with what a parent may want - 'all light'.
Life's a mix so get used to it kids.

Too much sheltering makes for weak kids.

Can understand how 'old tales' can just get old ,
but I agree with Idle Rich - lots of old stuff still around and sometimes they ring true.

Can an old tale be as horrific as getting one's head bashed / smashed during sports
as your Dad yells in from the sidelines ?
For example ...

Also agree with Idle on Rackham , Dulac and by extension, "Company Of Wolves" and the like ...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Also agree with Idle on Rackham , Dulac and by extension, "Company Of Wolves" and the like ..."
Indeed, only recently found out that Company of Wolves was inspired by Valerie & Her Week of Wonders.
Kay Nielsen is another fantastic illustrator. On a more adult tip I like Kubin's pictures as well but, although they have a fairytale feel (or maybe dreamlike feel is a better description) they're more like Beardsley or something, not really for children.
Yep Gorey is another particularly dark one. Seems to have a similar delight in nastiness to Roald Dahl.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Gorey's been rather nicely pastiched (is that a word?) by Nicholas 'Perry Bible Fellowship' Gurewitch:

PBF176-The_Throbblefoot_Aquarium.jpg


PBF200-Les_Douleurs_de_la_Morte.jpg
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
the older version of each story you go the darker, more gruesome it gets. but the sanitized disney fascism is not better.

i worked on a "year end promotion" video for disney once (you can see it in the design link in my sig - design/motion/disney year end), and the creative brief was "unstoppable, glorious, heroic, and universal". and during the meeting i said "oh, like Lenny Riefenstahl" -- but no one at the 8+ people meeting got it -- people who work at disney are some of the most ignorant and stupid right wing over weight assholes in the entertainment industry. you should hear a bunch of older creative professionals sit around on coffee break, horror stories about working there are endless.

and this just in last week, Hitler loved disney and made fan-art:

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/02/23/adolf-hitler-disney.html
http://www.lofotenkrigmus.no/e_akvarell.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1579629/Did-Adolf-Hitler-draw-Disney-characters.html

makes sense dont it.

Zhao, have you ever read Baudrillard on Disney? If you google it I'm sure you'll find lots of awesome stuff. Eco also had interesting things to say about Disney and the "hyperreal"...

I know there was someone (maybe it was Baudrillard? can't remember but someone here will know) who wrote about the entire history of the Disney family in France and the U.S. Pretty crazy shit.

Walt Disney had one of the largest collections of porn (spanning centuries and cultures) in world history. Make of that what you will.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I reckon kids can benefit from some bits of darkness to go with what a parent may want - 'all light'.
Life's a mix so get used to it kids.

Too much sheltering makes for weak kids.

Can understand how 'old tales' can just get old ,
but I agree with Idle Rich - lots of old stuff still around and sometimes they ring true.

Can an old tale be as horrific as getting one's head bashed / smashed during sports
as your Dad yells in from the sidelines ?
For example ...

Also agree with Idle on Rackham , Dulac and by extension, "Company Of Wolves" and the like ...

Agree with this. There does seem to be a huge difference in quality between the darker Disney fairytales (Snow White, Sleeping Beauty), and the (in some ways) much darker work of Roald Dahl.

I think the main difference is that in Disney fairytales, and a lot of the more traditional fairytales, power is always this centralized force and the prevailing order is always "right" even when it's scary...in Roald Dahl stories like Matilda abusive teachers get theirs, the individual child is more clearly positioned as a "good" person against the tide of "evil" that's inherent in power...

That's kind of simplistic but I think it makes sense...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
He was also a paranoid nut who testified against loads of people for 'un-American activities' and accused the SAG of being a Communist front. He was like the Edward Teller of children's entertainment.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
When I was a young teen I babysat for this woman's kids, two girls 6 and 8, and it was truly creepy how indoctrinated in the Disney Cult they were. The girls owned full costumes for all of the Disney princesses and just about everything in their house was Disney, including figurines in every room.

Every night they each got to choose three books to be read before bed, and of course all of the books they owned were rewrites of the Disney princess films (the mom had a shelf full of those Fabio-covered romance novels).

It was like torture.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ouch. Though it does sound a bit like the setup for a modestly subversive early-'90s family comedy whereby you respond by smuggling in tapes of The Addams Family and some Tim Burton films to counter-indoctrinate them.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Ouch. Though it does sound a bit like the setup for a modestly subversive early-'90s family comedy whereby you respond by smuggling in tapes of The Addams Family and some Tim Burton films to counter-indoctrinate them.

Does seem like Tim Burton makes films in reaction to this sort of thing, doesn't it?
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Here is The Baby Website’s list of the “TOP BEDTIME STORIES OF 2008″:

1. The Very Hungry Caterpillar, Eric Carle (1969)


justly so though really, wicked story

CF-Very-Hungry-Caterpillar-Example.jpg
 

swears

preppy-kei
h4752.jpg


This guy was my hero when I was about four. Total badbwoy.

The line "If you touch Hitty Pitty, Hitty Pitty will bite you!" would crack me up every time, my mum got so sick of reading this to me every night.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Walt Disney had one of the largest collections of porn (spanning centuries and cultures) in world history. Make of that what you will."
I've heard this before but I've also heard people say it's an urban myth, have you got any links that support it?
Needless to say I want it to be true.

"I think the main difference is that in Disney fairytales, and a lot of the more traditional fairytales, power is always this centralized force and the prevailing order is always "right" even when it's scary...in Roald Dahl stories like Matilda abusive teachers get theirs, the individual child is more clearly positioned as a "good" person against the tide of "evil" that's inherent in power..."
Is that necessarily the case? I mean, in the old school tales often the evil queen is the person in power though I suppose you could argue that this power tends to come from a good king who has had the wool pulled over his eyes (see also the good father and wicked stepmother). Or how about Rapunzel? Who is it who locks her in the tower, I can't remember, presumably someone with some kind of power although I guess there exists a parallel force in the form of the prince who ultimately rescues her.
Some Dulac eye candy anyway

Dulac,1...%20by%20Dulac.JPG


dulac_firebird.jpg


218892507_df7a4940eb.jpg
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I've heard this before but I've also heard people say it's an urban myth, have you got any links that support it?
Needless to say I want it to be true.

I saw this on the History Channel, quite a long time ago. It showed pictures from the collection and everything, IIRC. I'll look for a link, though.

Is that necessarily the case? I mean, in the old school tales often the evil queen is the person in power though I suppose you could argue that this power tends to come from a good king who has had the wool pulled over his eyes (see also the good father and wicked stepmother). Or how about Rapunzel? Who is it who locks her in the tower, I can't remember, presumably someone with some kind of power although I guess there exists a parallel force in the form of the prince who ultimately rescues her.

What I meant was that in the Disney fairytales, only individuals can be good or evil, and "good" individuals always come out ahead if they "know their role" and do what is "right" (e.g. Cinderella--just chirpily sing your way through the emotional and physical abuse waiting for your Knight in Shining Armor)...of course, "good" people are always pretty...those who are evil are usually seeking power, not in power (like the wicked witches who envy the pretty young princesses--there's a lot of literature about the "witch" myth being founded in the idea that older, infertile women would turn to sorcery to try to regain their sexual power/fertility). In Disneyland good always prevails over evil, and what prevails is always good. Whereas in Roald Dahl and some of the other dark contemporary children's writers work, power is inherently evil, individuals who are good inevitably wind up bumping into evil people everywhere (evil people being people who tap into power to use it for selfish gain or purely selfish reasons)--good doesn't necessarily prevail over evil in general, but evil individuals will eventually reap the bad karma they've sown.

It seems like the difference between a Christian world where power comes from on high, authority is paternalistic, power is essentially good and only evil people try to subvert the natural order of things, and a more eclectic, pagan or even Hindu spiritual universe where power is not centralized, it's an energy we can all tap into, and we're always either getting somewhere with karmic debt or falling behind in our payments.
 
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