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swears
14-01-2009, 06:57 PM
the month of July

the colour pink

handbag house

light blue jeans

Tom Ewing

Jeff Koons

empty mirror
14-01-2009, 07:51 PM
sombreros
(i have this photo of my wife when she was goth, aged 16, at a Chi-Chi's mexican restaurant, wearing a sombrero, on her birthday)

bassbeyondreason
14-01-2009, 08:01 PM
Roman? :p

swears
14-01-2009, 08:23 PM
sans serif

factor 5 sun lotion

jelly beans

vitamins

Trevelyan
14-01-2009, 08:36 PM
ZZ Top

Skiing

Dad's poker buddies

Jack Russell terriers

The Shopaholic series

Weightlifting supplements

nomadthethird
14-01-2009, 08:45 PM
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee153/BU1845/ttucheerlparty.jpg

Mr. Tea
14-01-2009, 08:51 PM
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee153/BU1845/ttucheerlparty.jpg

I think I'll take goth any day.

swears
14-01-2009, 09:09 PM
sit-ups

day-glo

Bart Simpson

bacardi breezers

Obama

Mr. Tea
14-01-2009, 09:12 PM
Paris Hilton.

Granola Bars.

Ministry Of Sound.

The sun.

The Sun.

Football.

All Bar One.

Tony Blair.

Any film starring Vin Diesel.

Team-building exercises.

nomadthethird
14-01-2009, 09:15 PM
I think I'll take goth any day.

Haha. Likewise.

I found that picture by searching "psychotic cheerleaders" on google image.

Mr. Tea
14-01-2009, 09:22 PM
I found that picture by searching "psychotic cheerleaders" on google image.

Stick a .com on the end of that phrase, buy some costumes, round up a few cash-desperate 'out-of-work actresses' and you could be sitting on a goldmine...

nomadthethird
14-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Stick a .com on the end of that phrase, buy some costumes, round up a few cash-desperate 'out-of-work actresses' and you could be sitting on a goldmine...

HA you're right...

We can call it Barely Legal Girl-Nextdoor Cheerleaders Gone Psycho and we can pay the actresses industry premium to keep saying "oh my god I can't believe I'm doing this" over and over, while expertly mugging for the camera, like they do on Girls Gone Wild, to add that aura of virginal authenticity to the whole affair.

swears
14-01-2009, 09:33 PM
http://www.testriffic.com/resultfiles/9215preppy.jpg

nomadthethird
14-01-2009, 09:43 PM
Girls Aloud.

Mudd Jeans.

Sketchers.

Miley Cyrus.

High School Musical.

swears
14-01-2009, 10:38 PM
Pharrell Williams

white stilettos

ABC

Daft Punk's "Discovery"

this guy: ;)

nomadthethird
14-01-2009, 10:55 PM
OMG I was in Germany when that Daft Punk album came out, and I got to a point where I really thought I might go ballistic or have a seizure if I heard "One more Time" just one more time.

I actually used to go to a goth club in DL because they played more tolerable music there.

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 12:09 AM
Girls Aloud.


Ah you say that, but 'No Good Advice' has a production sound and a chorus that has been compared, not unreasonably I think, to the likes of Sisters Of Mercy and Dead Or Alive.

Some food for thought there, anyway.

Edit: I bought an SPK album today and it's the opposite of the opposite of goth, in the best possible way.

nomadthethird
15-01-2009, 12:18 AM
What is SPK? I keep seeing it come up different places.

nomadthethird
15-01-2009, 12:26 AM
Thanks, youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBpYIZC9PM

I like it, kind reminds me of the Virgin Prunes...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yMMHf2mJV1g

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IimsciWwHHk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xdNU25uf68E

Ness Rowlah
15-01-2009, 12:57 AM
http://www.innocentdrinks.co.uk/images/drinks/products/bot_straw_ban_new.jpg

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 01:04 AM
School.

The Olympics.

Jamie Oliver.

Bongos.

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 01:24 AM
Thanks, youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MPBpYIZC9PM



Oh dear, I think that one's kind of embarrassing - the album I bought has this track on it:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PSCPL0e7498&feature=related

Possibly one for the 'music for fucking' thread, depending on whom you're fuckin, I guess.

Tentative Andy
15-01-2009, 03:34 AM
Cruising/car-modding culture
Happy hardcore
School sports day
Picnics
Barbeques
Med resort holidays
Australian soap opera

zhao
15-01-2009, 03:36 AM
What is SPK? I keep seeing it come up different places.

first wave early 80s industrial noise group, peers of and often mentioned in conjunction with NON, Throbbing Gristle, Einsturzend, Test Dept, etc. one of them is a mate of a mate of mine and lives in Berlin. told me he liked my last CD.

yeah In Flagrante Delicto has been a favorite since i was 16... but too bad moments like that don't occur very often in their discography. to me all of the early rough stuff from these bands were interesting, but only some of it listenable, and even less worth hearing repeatedly.

zhao
15-01-2009, 03:49 AM
i was going to say Fela but the dubby percussion workouts of some goth bands are not so distant from that sound...

john eden
15-01-2009, 09:24 AM
Ah you say that, but 'No Good Advice' has a production sound and a chorus that has been compared, not unreasonably I think, to the likes of Sisters Of Mercy and Dead Or Alive.

Some food for thought there, anyway.


Great thread. :D

I think production-wise there is a case for saying that Xenomania are a bit goth.

Also Nicola Roberts is waaaaaaaaay goth or at least the most goth member of GA. I think Nadine is the least. I have probably thought about this too much.

john eden
15-01-2009, 09:25 AM
http://pbskids.org/barney/pareduc/parents/images/barney_sheryl.jpg

Bang Diddley
15-01-2009, 09:43 AM
elmo

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/how-elmo-works-1.jpg

lovers rock
miami vice
breakfast news presenters

john eden
15-01-2009, 09:53 AM
actually many of the goths in this excellent piece reviewing a sisters of mercy convention are in fact anti-goth:

http://smith3000.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/feature-gothic-and-proud/#more-715

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 01:51 PM
actually many of the goths in this excellent piece reviewing a sisters of mercy convention are in fact anti-goth:

http://smith3000.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/feature-gothic-and-proud/#more-715

That's because all goths love slagging off other goths for not being 'proper' goths. It's one of the hallmarks of gothness.

On with the list:

Starbucks,

Liam Gallagher,

Ikea,

Father Christmas.

Also, Elmo may not be very goth but his cousin Emo is atleast not a million miles away:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/W7IxliAPjAk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/W7IxliAPjAk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

john eden
15-01-2009, 01:58 PM
that's true but some of them seem to be able to laugh at themselves as well...

oi/skinhead is definitely Not Goth in my book, we will have none of that androgyny and intellectualism and make up here, sir!

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 02:15 PM
to me all of the early rough stuff from these bands were interesting, but only some of it listenable, and even less worth hearing repeatedly.

Yeah well TG in particular are infamous for being one of those bands whose concept is much more interesting than any (edit: ok, most) of the music (or 'music') that they actually put out, aren't they? In fact they're probably the original band that phrase was coined for.

john eden
15-01-2009, 02:55 PM
Yeah well TG in particular are infamous for being one of those bands whose concept is much more interesting than any of the music (or 'music') that they actually put out, aren't they? In fact they're probably the original band that phrase was coined for.

It got much worse after them.

vimothy
15-01-2009, 03:05 PM
Yeah well TG in particular are infamous for being one of those bands whose concept is much more interesting than any of the music (or 'music') that they actually put out, aren't they? In fact they're probably the original band that phrase was coined for.

I think Throbbing Gristle are highly listenable. Heathen Earth -- what a record.

polystyle desu
15-01-2009, 03:28 PM
SPK maybe not 'Goth' , but (as prolly said before) there would have been no Swans without their show at CBGB's bk in that day.
Dunno about the music fer fucking' part but definintely music for hacking a pig's head.
Old friends, G Revell has been in Hollywood for too long by now.
Which x member is in Berlin Zhao ?

TG ?
Saw Genesis at the local Post Office last week , trying to charm the 'lady' behind the plastic wall to get him his um, package'.
Didn't work ...

vimothy
15-01-2009, 04:07 PM
Hey poly, where do you live -- Stella Street, USA?

polystyle desu
15-01-2009, 04:26 PM
Nope, around 16th and Ave. C in StuyvesantTown NYC,
Genesis has been haunting the East Village for a few years now.
That P O is the worst in city, on 14th St. between Ave, A & First Ave -
we all suffer online from time to time there !

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 04:56 PM
Hey poly, where do you live -- Stella Street, USA?

Ha, that series was superb - I hope they do another one. There's endless potential vis-a-vis Wino, Doherty, Moss, Allen snr. and jnr., Boy George...

john eden
15-01-2009, 05:11 PM
TG ?
Saw Genesis at the local Post Office last week , trying to charm the 'lady' behind the plastic wall to get him his um, package'.
Didn't work ...

Wow I never thought I'd see the day when my occult Post Office powers eclipsed Gen's!

Mind you I am in there nearly every day at the moment.

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 05:26 PM
This isn't the first time I've heard about a contretemps between Mr. Orridge and the post office - I'm sure I read a story somewhere that was titled "Gen. P-O vs. the Gen P.O.". :)

Edit: here (http://www.tate.org.uk/archivejourneys/reisehtml/mov_artbiogs.htm) it is in brief (scroll down a bit) - it says COUM Transmissions were taken to court by the General Post Office over some 'obscene' post cards and the erstwhile Neil Megson changed his name to Genesis P-Orridge as a pun on GPO. More interesting stuff below on transgressive art, (post-)punk, industrial culture, the fascist aesthetic, TOPY etc. : http://oraclesyndicate.twoday.net/files/how+black+is+black+metal1/ (PDF)

john eden
15-01-2009, 05:31 PM
It was a postcard collage of an arse combined with buckingham palace, iirc.

Wow, that article has the most inaccurate superficial take on TOPY I have read for years!

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 05:35 PM
It was a postcard collage of an arse combined with buckingham palace, iirc.

Haha, brilliant.



Wow, that article has the most inaccurate superficial take on TOPY I have read for years!

Is it? I don't know anything about them really, I was just googling for the post office story and that page was one of the first things to come up.

vimothy
15-01-2009, 05:45 PM
Har -- quite a funny article, actually. Michael Moynihan is such a tool.

vimothy
15-01-2009, 05:45 PM
Is it? I don't know anything about them really

I'd always assumed you are an old industrial head, Mr Tea?

Mr. Tea
15-01-2009, 06:03 PM
I'd always assumed you are an old industrial head, Mr Tea?

Well I like a lot of that music, and I do have a passing interest in some of the more colourful characters to have graced the scene over the years...but not really to the extent of having read loads about TOPY and so on. I probably should, it does seem quite interesting, but I'm never quite sure of the worthwhile-things-they-have-to-say/just-another-bunch-of-self-consciously-weird-publicity-junkies ratio of people like GPO and Boyd Rice. A lot of the nihilist-Nietzschean-satanic stuff can come across like 'Marilyn Manson for people who think they've outgrown Marilyn Manson', if you see what I mean.

nomadthethird
15-01-2009, 07:49 PM
Nope, around 16th and Ave. C in StuyvesantTown NYC,
Genesis has been haunting the East Village for a few years now.
That P O is the worst in city, on 14th St. between Ave, A & First Ave -
we all suffer online from time to time there !

Genesis also owns a building in Ridgewood, or at least he used to--that photographer (Georg) who coordinated the Young Gods show at SI was his tenant and once shared a floor with Genesis and the late Lady Jaye.

nomadthethird
15-01-2009, 07:52 PM
That's because all goths love slagging off other goths for not being 'proper' goths. It's one of the hallmarks of gothness.


Sort of reminiscent of how hipsters are usually the ones making the loudest noise about how awful hipsters are. It's one of the hallmarks of hipsterdom.

Ness Rowlah
16-01-2009, 12:40 AM
More Opposite of Goth (that is a band name right there? searching for beach volleyball images
seems to bring up an endless parade of fingers behind bums).
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/images/gallery/olybeachvolley/5.jpg

GPO, I saw him on stage back in '99 with Psychic TV down the South Bank,
? and the Mysterians, Durutti Column (?) and Quentin Crisp via video uplink on the same bill as far as I can recall.
I thought they were brill and surprisingly (?) tight and funky with a carpet on stage and all (Patti Smith had a carpet
on stage as well when I saw her a few years ago, maybe it's the punk-hippie thing todo).

Tentative Andy
16-01-2009, 01:07 AM
*whispers*
I don't particularly like industrial. :(

Mr. Tea
16-01-2009, 01:18 AM
Sort of reminiscent of how hipsters are usually the ones making the loudest noise about how awful hipsters are. It's one of the hallmarks of hipsterdom.

Yeah, but the other way around: goths want to identify themselves as True Original Goths and all others as fakes, while hipsters want to identify other hipsters as such.

nomadthethird
16-01-2009, 01:21 AM
Yeah, but the other way around: goths want to identify themselves as True Original Goths and all others as fakes, while hipsters want to identify other hipsters as such.

Like U.S. ravers did "candy kids"?

zhao
16-01-2009, 06:56 AM
I think Throbbing Gristle are highly listenable. Heathen Earth -- what a record.

and 20 jazz funk greats. not only listenable, but also cum-like. er... i mean seminal.



Dunno about the music fer fucking' part but definintely music for hacking a pig's head.
Old friends, G Revell has been in Hollywood for too long by now.
Which x member is in Berlin Zhao ?


forget his name... i think of russian origins if i remember correctly? i must have been pretty stoned at that party...

petergunn
16-01-2009, 09:41 AM
SPK maybe not 'Goth' , but (as prolly said before) there would have been no Swans without their show at CBGB's bk in that day.
Dunno about the music fer fucking' part but definintely music for hacking a pig's head.
Old friends, G Revell has been in Hollywood for too long by now.
Which x member is in Berlin Zhao ?

TG ?
Saw Genesis at the local Post Office last week , trying to charm the 'lady' behind the plastic wall to get him his um, package'.
Didn't work ...

why go to that post office when the one on 2nd and 11 or whatever by Webster Hall is seriously one of the best in all of NYC...

john eden
16-01-2009, 10:21 AM
Is it? I don't know anything about them really, I was just googling for the post office story and that page was one of the first things to come up.

It's all covered pretty well in a massive piece Simon Dwyer wrote in the Rapid Eye anthology.

The piece you linked to is a bit sensationalist but basically correct about Boyd Rice and Moynihan et al. And indeed the influence of Gen/TOPY on them.

But it's a very reductive view of TOPY, which was as influenced by Burroughs and other things as it was by Crowley.

It also only really deals with the Temple in its earliest form (early 80s) whereas the org existed from 1981 until a couple of years ago. And there was a progression (and diversity) of ideas which included things like acid house, situationism, etc. Parts of TOPY were also hugely critical of that whole LaVey/nazi/might is right nonsense.

I can't recall TOPY "fetishing" Hitler, although Gen did used to own a framed table knife which was allegedly once the property of AH (and had those letters on it).

polystyle desu
16-01-2009, 03:27 PM
why go to that post office when the one on 2nd and 11 or whatever by Webster Hall is seriously one of the best in all of NYC...

That's usually where I go Peter, we have a maildrop there.
But the one on 14th is right across from Stuytown,
so try as I might to get in there in a time when the line is looking short,
sometimes you get caught with 2 tellers and at least 20 people line ...

Genesis gets caught as well, with full pouty lipstick and bright yellow sweater on.

sufi
16-01-2009, 04:30 PM
um shurely there is an anathema of goth in:

reggae/rasta - conscious, tropical, colorful, positive & politically committed
http://bp3.blogger.com/__0tJiVybQtk/R1XQA0p9l9I/AAAAAAAAArk/awWihScEH4g/s320/Peter_Tosh_-_Equal_Rights.jpg

funkadelia - fun, soulful and full of slackness
http://store.komissariat.lenin.ru/Funkadelic/funkadelic_funkadelic.jpg

hiphop - challenging apathy, the whole electro vs rock thing
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rQfGczfi1cY/R1BS7ruEZsI/AAAAAAAAAQM/Mmtcu2VtBxQ/s320/PubNMEfront.JPG

even techno.... esp jungle, happy etc,,,,
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee131/birchy21/happy_hardcore_is_okay.jpg

what i guess i'm trying to say is how much there is some sort of a whiteness fetish semi-submerged in goth??? :slanted:

john eden
16-01-2009, 04:40 PM
what i guess i'm trying to say is how much there is some sort of a whiteness fetish semi-submerged in goth??? :slanted:

I think there can be (see the pdf linked to upthread - lots of racist/odinist/nazi biz) but there doesn't have to be. Killing Joke for example managed to combine goth with tribalism.

tech step et al are pretty gothic also (lots of dubstep is).

wu-tang and wordsound are goth-hop

you might be right about a disengagement from politics, though I do recall some gothy anarcho punk things (was it amebix?)

the more miserabalist elements of the Shaka / UK Dub scene can get pretty goth also.

It's a tendency which can manifest in all sorts of things, I think.

swears
16-01-2009, 04:58 PM
hiphop - challenging apathy, the whole electro vs rock thing



Wu-Tang is kinda goth, imo. Well, as close as hip-hop gets!

edit: Just noticed John Eden already said this, so it's not just me anyway...

Mr. Tea
16-01-2009, 04:58 PM
I think there can be (see the pdf linked to upthread - lots of racist/odinist/nazi biz) but there doesn't have to be. Killing Joke for example managed to combine goth with tribalism.


And, to a certain extent, reggae/dub!

Sufi, I don't think there's anything inherently apathetic about goth - that's more slacker/grunger which has to a certain extent coallesced with indie/emo. True goths revel in the unfathomable darkness of the soul, which is not, repeat NOT, to be confused with moping. :)

viktorvaughn
16-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Wu-Tang is kinda goth, imo. Well, as close as hip-hop gets!

edit: Just noticed John Eden already said this, so it not just me anyway...

gravediggaz?

swears
16-01-2009, 05:03 PM
gravediggaz?

Yeah! That's an even better example, there was a little genre for a while back there called "Horrorcore" in the mid-90s. Some of DMX's stuff is very fatalistic and morbid, too. There's probably loads of stuff.

padraig (u.s.)
16-01-2009, 05:25 PM
I think there can be (see the pdf linked to upthread - lots of racist/odinist/nazi biz) but there doesn't have to be. Killing Joke for example managed to combine goth with tribalism.

See also early Amebix when they sounded like a Killing Joke cover band (a good thing, of course). Plus Joy Division (not goth but Gothic), UK Decay, "Bela Lugosi's Dead".


wu-tang and wordsound are goth-hop

Someone just mentioned Gravediggaz, RZA at his most gothified. Also some of Big L's work, even Cypress Hill (the artwork/aesthetic, skulls & gloom & such). El-P's production, especially on The Cold Vein.


you might be right about a disengagement from politics, though I do recall some gothy anarcho punk things (was it amebix?)

That's right, though they were much more nihilistic than most of the Crass-style anarcho bands. And later on their sound turned more Motorhead, still awesome of course. The Mob, again, also Rudimentary Peni (esp. the artwork), maybe even Conflict for the sheer angst of the vocal delivery.


the more miserabalist elements of the Shaka / UK Dub scene can get pretty goth also.

Scientist Rids the World of the Curse of the Vampires. Also the whole scene around On-U, kinda? Esp. the parts w/Mark Stewart.

padraig (u.s.)
16-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Father Christmas.

Surely you can't be serious? He lives in seclusion in a frigid land that is in darkness half the year and travels by sleigh.

vimothy
16-01-2009, 05:35 PM
Goth-dub:

Bauhaus -- In Fear of Dub

zhao
17-01-2009, 08:36 AM
tricky is goth. the boy wears eye-liner for one thing.

and now that i think about it, massive attack is pretty fucking goth in the end.

those Gas albums by W. Voigt are goth.

mistersloane
17-01-2009, 11:13 AM
What made you start this thread swears? It's so random.

Mr. Tea
17-01-2009, 01:08 PM
Surely you can't be serious? He lives in seclusion in a frigid land that is in darkness half the year and travels by sleigh.

And despite that he's STILL a jolly, bearded, red-faced fat fucker who's always laughing.

Pretty damn un-goth if you ask me.


Goth-dub:

Bauhaus -- In Fear of Dub

See also: 'At The Top' by Revolting Cocks on Beers, Steers And Queers. Pretty good tune, actually.

john eden
17-01-2009, 01:24 PM
I remember reading once that Father Christmas is based on Odin/Woden, which is quite goth.

vimothy
17-01-2009, 01:25 PM
Jesus/Aslan

mms
17-01-2009, 01:27 PM
i had a poster of the gravediggas on my wall when i was in my early 20's a massive poster in black and white, with rza's huge metal mouth and vampire teeth, my girlfriend made me take it down cos it scared her.
Alot of latino gang culture, the script is actually gothic, the images if tearful bleeding jesus' all that fated prison stuff, deeply depressing from the mags i've seen from san francisco etc, there is quite a heavy goth undertone to catholic latin american culture, newspapers with an emphasis in death, coffin joe movies the gothic script etc.

mms
17-01-2009, 01:30 PM
I remember reading once that Father Christmas is based on Odin/Woden, which is quite goth.


there was a santa claus family tree in the fortean times last issue, here it is on the net. Excellent!

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/santas-family-tree/

Mr. Tea
17-01-2009, 01:40 PM
I remember reading once that Father Christmas is based on Odin/Woden, which is quite goth.

More metal than goth, really. Goths HATE it when normals call metallers 'goths'.

Mr. Tea
17-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Alot of latino gang culture, the script is actually gothic, the images if tearful bleeding jesus' all that fated prison stuff, deeply depressing from the mags i've seen from san francisco etc, there is quite a heavy goth undertone to catholic latin american culture, newspapers with an emphasis in death, coffin joe movies the gothic script etc.

Oh absolutely, "the death cult called Catholicism"* is goth as fuck.

*thanks again, Jonathon Meades!

vimothy
17-01-2009, 02:39 PM
Think the ice queen is pretty goth, but Jesus/Aslan surely is the antithesis, and so couldn't be further from it...?

swears
17-01-2009, 03:11 PM
What made you start this thread swears? It's so random.

Just a drunken conversation I was having with a friend. I dunno why, really.

Mr. Tea
17-01-2009, 03:46 PM
Think the ice queen is pretty goth, but Jesus/Aslan surely is the antithesis, and so couldn't be further from it...?

Jesus is the ur-goth, surely?

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/htdocs/surveys/charlotte/0006/000605.JPG

I mean, has anyone ever suffered quite so sublimely as my man Jay-Cee?

Jesus is not to be confused with the flock of brainwashed conformist zombie sheeple who venerate him, of course. ;)

vimothy
17-01-2009, 04:27 PM
My experience at Sunday school was obviously very different to yours, Mr Tea.

Mr. Tea
17-01-2009, 04:30 PM
My experience at Sunday school was obviously very different to yours, Mr Tea.

A Sunday school with a Matthias Grunewald crucifiction adorning the wall? I wish! :(

vimothy
17-01-2009, 04:36 PM
That said, I do remember the Type O Negative track, "Jesus Christ Looks Like Me".

zhao
18-01-2009, 07:17 AM
well jesus was descended from older egyptian gods, and THEY were GOTH!!!

but not in the picture some brain-dead asshole fundamentalists paints of him though.

Mr. Tea
18-01-2009, 09:19 AM
well jesus was descended from older egyptian gods, and THEY were GOTH!!!


Or THOTH, even:

http://www.catchpenny.org/thoth/images/thoth4.gif

Agent Nucleus
18-01-2009, 10:27 AM
anything that might be considered "rugged" (beards, wrangler jeans, dodge ram trucks) is def anti-goth

tanning salons
katie couric
being good at sports
the dave matthews band
athens, georgia (the university of georgia)
designer suits, Banana Republic, Calvin Klein, Chaps, A&F



i always thought this was the best example of horror/hip hop:

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padraig (u.s.)
18-01-2009, 06:23 PM
And despite that he's STILL a jolly, bearded, red-faced fat fucker who's always laughing.

Pretty damn un-goth if you ask me.

nah that's all merely a front to hide the inner anguish innit. though maybe he is more metal than goth; a hero from the frigid northlands who rides upon mighty steeds, like a fat Norse philanothropist.

more things that are the opposite of goth;
southern rock - a bunch of fat, bearded guys playing sweet gtr jams
The French Revolution (put an end to all those 18th century aristos w/their frilly lace, powdered faces, wigs) really any popular revolution - goths are nothing if not elitist
black people (not Latins, though)
funk; as music, as a concept, as a quality
Minor Threat
sunshine, vitamins & minerals - mess up that deathly pallor

some things which are very goth;
tuberculosis aka consumption - gives you that deathly pallor
Stevie Nicks
latter Black Flag - Greg Ginn, admitted The Birthday Party fan
Jesus - come on, I can't believe people are even arguing this one
"Acid Trax" - yeah it's black but also gay which cancels out don't it, tell me you couldn't mix this into a set of Bahaus and London After Midnight and whatever

bassbeyondreason
18-01-2009, 07:31 PM
I've been getting black metal fans (the gothiest of anti-goths) into acid house recently. The repetitive harshness and paranoid horror vibes really translate well.

Mr. Tea
18-01-2009, 07:33 PM
black people (not Latins, though)

Not necessarily in West Africa/Haiti/New Orleans - voodoo has a certain black gothiness to it, doesn't it?



Jesus - come on, I can't believe people are even arguing this one


Absolutely, it's a no-brainer

mms
18-01-2009, 08:50 PM
this dre / snoop one is gothic as fuck, snoop retelling the story of his death from beyond the grave:
murder was the case:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2OpFMBReg&feature=related

complete with doomy bells, screamy synths.

check it here discussing the video:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/919536/snoop_dogg_sold_his_soul_to_the_devil/
'crow flies into the room, turns into jesus christ, jesus turns into satan, snoop sells his soul to the devil'
i didn't know but it's a common rumour that snoop sold his soul to the big red one.

voodoos got a simularity to some mexican traditions like the day of the dead, basically ancestor worship with catholic trimmings, like alot of voodoo religious beliefs.
That idea that the dead are part of the living world vica versa, which is quite a gothy idea i guess.

vimothy
18-01-2009, 09:26 PM
Jesus wears knitted jumpers -- he eats quiche!

Mr. Tea
18-01-2009, 10:01 PM
murder was the case:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LC2OpFMBReg&feature=related

Great song, great vid. :)



voodoos got a simularity to some mexican traditions like the day of the dead, basically ancestor worship with catholic trimmings, like alot of voodoo religious beliefs.
That idea that the dead are part of the living world vica versa, which is quite a gothy idea i guess.

Yeah, the Dia de los Muertos or whatever it's called is a sort of Amerindian/Catholic Hallowe'en, really fascinating tradition. I think the thing about thinking of death as inseperable from life, and in fact a part of life - as opposed to the antithesis of life - is actually very sensible. We seem to be far more hung about death in our culture than many other cultures are, which is not a good thing. Look at our laws that force terminally ill people to drag their lives out to the bitter end, it's fucked up.

mms
18-01-2009, 10:08 PM
Yeah, the Dia de los Muertos or whatever it's called is a sort of Amerindian/Catholic Hallowe'en, really fascinating tradition. I think the thing about thinking of death as inseperable from life, and in fact a part of life - as opposed to the antithesis of life - is actually very sensible. We seem to be far more hung about death in our culture than many other cultures are, which is not a good thing. Look at our laws that force terminally ill people to drag their lives out to the bitter end, it's fucked up.

yes and the spiritual, it's seen as separate or equated directly to good morals, ie god is good, devil bad, also the thing about ancestor worship is valuing the people that put you here, the 'vine of souls', so reminding you that there are a lot of people involved in all you've inherited, and its not been easy for anyone.

mistersloane
18-01-2009, 11:43 PM
i didn't know but it's a common rumour that snoop sold his soul to the big red one.


I was just thinking about this today, how Dre got his firstborn taken from him, which again would be a common pact with old Lucy.

Tentative Andy
19-01-2009, 12:01 AM
In terms of opposites:
All things Guido.

nomadthethird
19-01-2009, 06:13 AM
i had a poster of the gravediggas on my wall when i was in my early 20's a massive poster in black and white, with rza's huge metal mouth and vampire teeth, my girlfriend made me take it down cos it scared her.
Alot of latino gang culture, the script is actually gothic, the images if tearful bleeding jesus' all that fated prison stuff, deeply depressing from the mags i've seen from san francisco etc, there is quite a heavy goth undertone to catholic latin american culture, newspapers with an emphasis in death, coffin joe movies the gothic script etc.

In Bushwick you are nobody if you don't have tatoos in huge gothic scrawl all over your neck.


well jesus was descended from older egyptian gods, and THEY were GOTH!!!

but not in the picture some brain-dead asshole fundamentalists paints of him though.

Even better, almost everything in the Old Testament was stolen directly from Gilgamesh. Or at very least all of the pre-Babylonian or ur-Babylonian myths had common origins that pre-date the Bible by years and years. Thousands of years.

empty mirror
23-03-2009, 03:46 PM
(RIP nomad the second)

non goth foods:
lollipops
popsicles
corndogs

non-goth products:
soap on a rope
commemorative statuettes of liberty
gum ball machines
lava lamps
tie-dye

non-goth foods:
cotton candy
cream-filled doughnuts
red licorice (though the black anise-flavored ones are acceptable)

non-goth sports:
mini-golf
ping pong

non-goth aquatic diversions:
water slides
hot tubs
slip & slide

non-goth miscellany:
babies and children
tickling

non-goth vehicles:
japanese motorcycles
go-karts
anything electric or solar powered

Tentative Andy
23-03-2009, 03:58 PM
Bumper stickers, and in-car decorations like nodding dogs, furry dice etc.

cobretti
21-04-2009, 03:40 PM
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee153/BU1845/ttucheerlparty.jpg

Ultimate chin gradient.

I reckon in terms of trends/clothing choices, the opposite of goth would be hyper-fluoro Nu Rave bellends. Nu Rave & Goth Rock are pretty opposite too.

Mr. Tea
21-04-2009, 07:03 PM
I reckon in terms of trends/clothing choices, the opposite of goth would be hyper-fluoro Nu Rave bellends. Nu Rave & Goth Rock are pretty opposite too.

But what's interesting is that 'nu-rave', such as it is, is a kind of ironic (-or is it?!?!) send-up of yer fluoro/tie-dye candy-raver, psy-trance-nonsense set. Which actually interfaces neatly with the 'cybergoth', purple dreadlocks, watches-too-much-anime element - which I see as an outlier, however distant, from goth proper.

Also, among the current crop of teenagers and stoodents in the UK (where are you posting from, btw? Edit: sorry, you used the term 'bellend', you're obviously British - my bad) there's a sort of cultural triangulation between generic skinny-jeans/big-hair indie, Mighty Boosh-inspired nu-ravers and emo, which is a sort of MTV-approved 'goth lite' in the first place.

swears
21-04-2009, 07:22 PM
http://www.clashmusic.com/files/imagecache/big_node_view/files/images/Vampire-Weekend-opt.jpg

Sick Boy
21-04-2009, 07:25 PM
there's a sort of cultural triangulation between generic skinny-jeans/big-hair indie, Mighty Boosh-inspired nu-ravers and emo, which is a sort of MTV-approved 'goth lite' in the first place.

It's funny to think that what Noel Fielding wears in the Boosh actually has an impact on youth fashion, since it is quite clear he is poking fun, albeit affectionately, at his character's ridiculous attempt to constantly appear on the cutting edge of fashion. Although considering Fielding's regular everyday sartorial habits it is very likely he is partly making fun of himself, so it's not all that surprising really.

When I think of goths, I certainly don't think of any sort of fashion consciousness at all. You can tell they care deeply about the way they look, but only insofar as it seperates them from the way everyone else looks, and includes them within a certain group. It can't be much about vanity, because typically goths look like absolute shit.

Sick Boy
21-04-2009, 08:23 PM
non-goth sports:
mini-golf
ping pong


Every sport is a non-goth sport.

Lichen
21-04-2009, 09:21 PM
Every sport is a non-goth sport.

Except snooker.Especially as played by Ray Reardon.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3163277.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=41CAE2DF95708CE212F94ED5428EECE0A55A1E4F32AD3138

cobretti
21-04-2009, 10:58 PM
But what's interesting is that 'nu-rave', such as it is, is a kind of ironic (-or is it?!?!) send-up of yer fluoro/tie-dye candy-raver, psy-trance-nonsense set. Which actually interfaces neatly with the 'cybergoth', purple dreadlocks, watches-too-much-anime element - which I see as an outlier, however distant, from goth proper.

Also, among the current crop of teenagers and stoodents in the UK (where are you posting from, btw?) there's a sort of cultural triangulation between generic skinny-jeans/big-hair indie, Mighty Boosh-inspired nu-ravers and emo, which is a sort of MTV-approved 'goth lite' in the first place.

What we have is a rare case of so opposite, they're nearly the same. A full circle of sorts.

subvert47
23-04-2009, 02:24 PM
the colour pink

I know a goth woman with pink hair :)

Mr. Tea
23-04-2009, 06:14 PM
I know a goth woman with pink hair :)

Is she a 'cute goth', by any chance? You know, Emily The Strange rucksack, plastic jewellery with 'cute skull' motifs, mildly subverted Hello, Kitty apparel...?

subvert47
23-04-2009, 11:00 PM
Is she a 'cute goth', by any chance? You know, Emily The Strange rucksack, plastic jewellery with 'cute skull' motifs, mildly subverted Hello, Kitty apparel...?

no :)

she's proper goth, but she's got pink hair
old school punk goth sort of thing

swears
24-04-2009, 12:00 AM
Is she a 'cute goth', by any chance? You know, Emily The Strange rucksack, plastic jewellery with 'cute skull' motifs, mildly subverted Hello, Kitty apparel...?

Stereotype no. 19886 that I can't stand.

You know, I'm just gonna round up all rock/punk/metal/goth/emo/etc subcultures and sub-subcultures under the category "dirtbag".

zhao
24-04-2009, 07:53 AM
cute goth is just emo, no? a friend of mine is the dictionary definition (http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/86/l_879f927bb15ee84f5f58dbe862ba8417.jpg) of this. i think it's a bit silly but i'm cool with it. being actually cute and having decent taste in music helps of course.


Stereotype no. 19886 that I can't stand.

You know, I'm just gonna round up all rock/punk/metal/goth/emo/etc subcultures and sub-subcultures under the category "dirtbag".

you want to kill all hippies, wish all punks and goths would die, and just basically hate everything huh? does it make you feel powerful or unique to make these statements?

whatever bullshit these subcultures have become, they were created because people were fed up with the status quo of advertising endorsed lifestyles; and the art and music and fashion of each embodied real passion of real people.

to be a hippie in 66, opposite of the efficient worker that capitalism wants you to be... to read Casteneda, tell your banker parents to fuck off, listen to Terry Riley and go to protests; to attempt to destroy all that evil shit they put in your head with free jazz, with mescaline... i almost wish i was 23 back then so i can experience what must have been an amazing scene and time to be alive.

to be goth in 79... Artaud, Rambaud, Siouxie... against all that yuppie cheesy neon colored shit. people expressing the hopelessness and doom that they felt deep in their guts, and making some timeless music in the process, inspiring generations to come.

all that shit is real man. and beautiful. and contained all the angst and dissatisfaction with how the world was; and by embracing creativity in all modes, were real attempts to find something better...

before it all got sucked up by the monsters they tried to fight but thats another story.

swears
24-04-2009, 01:42 PM
Yeah, well... seems a bit corny to me.

john eden
24-04-2009, 02:05 PM
no :)

she's proper goth, but she's got pink hair
old school punk goth sort of thing

I knew a fair amount of goth girls in the 80s who had pink hair and were not "cute" (tho they were hot, if that makes sense).

In fact a friend of mine is currently rocking black and pink streaks and egyptian eye make up after a stint with red hair.

Mr. Tea
24-04-2009, 02:07 PM
I think pink hair on a goth can work if it's done in a proper old-skool punk-goth way (as subvert says), like a mutated New Romantic. Emo hair is necessarily black - they don't have the imagination to do anything else.

john eden
24-04-2009, 02:10 PM
Stereotype no. 19886 that I can't stand.

You know, I'm just gonna round up all rock/punk/metal/goth/emo/etc subcultures and sub-subcultures under the category "dirtbag".

And yet we can have endless discussions about minor variations in electronic dance music... :)

I can see why people might not like it but I think all that stuff does provide a useful outlet for people.

My daughter's cousin is about 16 and has chosen to go down a slightly emo/hoodie route because most of the girls she was at school with wanted to look like Britney a few years back.

Now maybe she should pull herself together and go the whole hog and get into funky house or something but she lives in the middle of nowhere and the two choices available to her boil down to body-fascism or emo/goth.

STN
24-04-2009, 02:19 PM
In fact a friend of mine is currently rocking black and pink streaks and egyptian eye make up after a stint with red hair.

sssssssh, I was hoping to surprise them.

I hate all those youth cultures really, the most shittest are:

casuals, emos, hippies, suedeheads (or any pretence there of), skinheads (the original ones weren't racist, and they weally wuvved Jamaican reg.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz), yippies (don't care! lump them in with suedeheads; supposedly obscure, actually uninteresting).

I am aware of the irony of my list accidentally parodying one from a Richard Allen novel.

ho hum!

Tentative Andy
24-04-2009, 02:25 PM
I hate all those youth cultures really, the most shittest are:

yippies (don't care! lump them in with suedeheads; supposedly obscure, actually uninteresting).

ho hum!

Lol wut, the Yippies were awesome, if we're thinking of the same thing.

But yeah, in general, hating people with insignificant cultural differences from you seems to make the world go round. It frustrates me, it's the whole 'wrong sort of people' thing in its essence, but we all seem to be guilty of it to some extent.

Sick Boy
24-04-2009, 02:28 PM
What's a yippie? A young, upwardly-mobile person into yoga, organic food, buddha and sandals on weekends?

Mr. Tea
24-04-2009, 02:30 PM
skinheads (the original ones weren't racist, and they weally wuvved Jamaican reg.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

I met a proper old-skool (non-racist, reggae-loving) skin the other day. You wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him when he'd had a few, clearly, but he seemed like a pretty decent fella. I mean old-skool in terms of attitude, he was only 30. Guess there can't be too many of them left now.

STN
24-04-2009, 02:31 PM
What's a yippie? A young, upwardly-mobile person into yoga, organic food, buddha and sandals on weekends?

No, they're like, the original yippies, like, but like totally cooler and shit.

Suffice to say I don't actually hate any of these people.

Tentative Andy
24-04-2009, 02:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yippies

Abbie Hoffman is an American hero as far as I'm concerned.

Mr. Tea
24-04-2009, 02:45 PM
No-one who doesn't like this has the right to call themselves 'alternative':

http://news.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/20090408-jenya-1.jpg

This man is the alternative to EVERYTHING. Especially taste, sanity and employment.

zhao
24-04-2009, 02:58 PM
haha did you see the human negative guy that was tatooed solid black on vice dos... :D

give this guy a run for his money in terms of crazy, but is preferable to me because it's like, so minimal and so anti at the same time

IdleRich
24-04-2009, 03:00 PM
"skinheads (the original ones weren't racist, and they weally wuvved Jamaican reg.... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)"
I met this skinhead bloke once who'd just had a kicking for being a nazi. I commiserated with him saying I knew that just because he was a skinhead didn't mean that he was a racist and he said (in all seriousness) "nah, I am a nazi".


"you want to kill all hippies, wish all punks and goths would die, and just basically hate everything huh? does it make you feel powerful or unique to make these statements?
whatever bullshit these subcultures have become, they were created because people were fed up with the status quo of advertising endorsed lifestyles; and the art and music and fashion of each embodied real passion of real people.
to be a hippie in 66, opposite of the efficient worker that capitalism wants you to be... to read Casteneda, tell your banker parents to fuck off, listen to Terry Riley and go to protests; to attempt to destroy all that evil shit they put in your head with free jazz, with mescaline... i almost wish i was 23 back then so i can experience what must have been an amazing scene and time to be alive.
to be goth in 79... Artaud, Rambaud, Siouxie... against all that yuppie cheesy neon colored shit. people expressing the hopelessness and doom that they felt deep in their guts, and making some timeless music in the process, inspiring generations to come.
all that shit is real man. and beautiful. and contained all the angst and dissatisfaction with how the world was; and by embracing creativity in all modes, were real attempts to find something better..."
Shut it hippy.

zhao
24-04-2009, 03:13 PM
yeah yeah i was a bit hung over this morning, and that seems to sometimes get the romanticism side of me. but i stand by all that corny ass shit, and you all can go suck your mum.

IdleRich
24-04-2009, 03:16 PM
Actually, I agree with you believe it or not. These things have been corrupted but once they weren't and if you're just starting off in it now it's pure to you. It's people trying for something I think and it's easy to sneer while not trying at all - although I realise how patronising all of that sounds.

Sick Boy
24-04-2009, 03:29 PM
Shut it hippy.

haha pwned

Sick Boy
24-04-2009, 03:32 PM
I don't really have a problem with lame subcultures as long as you are under the age of 18. I was straight-edge for the whole of high school; it wasn't the most creative of choices, but when you have a limited range of options, and you are at the most awkward stage in your life in terms of self-identity, the best one to pick is the one that is not like them [insert enemy here].

swears
24-04-2009, 03:50 PM
you want to kill all hippies, wish all punks and goths would die, and just basically hate everything huh? does it make you feel powerful or unique to make these statements?



I don't want to kill anyone, just laugh at their trousers.

Nahh... some of my best mates are a bit dirtbag. I'm even sorta friendly with a couple of gweeds (at least they have some good gym advice).

BareBones
24-04-2009, 04:09 PM
I met this skinhead bloke once who'd just had a kicking for being a nazi. I commiserated with him saying I knew that just because he was a skinhead didn't mean that he was a racist and he said (in all seriousness) "nah, I am a nazi".

lol, amazing

Mr. Tea
25-04-2009, 12:47 AM
I met this skinhead bloke once who'd just had a kicking for being a nazi. I commiserated with him saying I knew that just because he was a skinhead didn't mean that he was a racist and he said (in all seriousness) "nah, I am a nazi".

That's such a perfect counterpoint to my anecdote.

swears
29-04-2009, 09:58 PM
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EShxp3qME70&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EShxp3qME70&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

This video is funnier than most of the comedy films I've seen recently.

martin
30-04-2009, 12:37 AM
I don't remember goths being miserable at all, the ones I met were all really humorous. Yeah, the music was dark, but I don't see taking an interest in 'dark' concepts as a sign of being po-faced. I always thought Smashing Pumpkins and Teenage Fanclub fans were the worst, now there was a fucking mass misery train. There used to be a load of teenage goths in Luton who lived in an abandoned house near Stopsley in the early 90s, they were always mucking about. The only time I saw one of them cry was on her 18th birthday, when she'd had too much snakebite, apparently it was cos "I can't be the dancing queen anymore!". Regarding the alleged inherent whiteness of the scene, my mate Jason, who's 2nd gen Jamaican, has everything Bauhaus and Siouxsie ever recorded.

Similarly, I grew up on a street in the early 80s where, one month, there'd be a load of kids with pink hair, CND badges and leather jackets hanging around outside Forbuoys. Then, a few months later, same kids would still be there, but with crop cuts and harrington jackets. They'd be like, 'Skinheads, skinheads, na na na na na na!" We were like, I thought you were into Greenpeace? There was way more crossover than the self-appointed historians let on. Ever seen pics of die-hard Trojan skinhead Tim Wells when he was a teenager? He's got a cut off denim jacket, spikey hair and a Motorhead T-shirt!

The great unsung goth LP is "Wonderful and Frightening World of the Fall"

nomadthethird
30-04-2009, 01:06 AM
I don't remember goths being miserable at all, the ones I met were all really humorous. Yeah, the music was dark, but I don't see taking an interest in 'dark' concepts as a sign of being po-faced. I always thought Smashing Pumpkins and Teenage Fanclub fans were the worst, now there was a fucking mass misery train. There used to be a load of teenage goths in Luton who lived in an abandoned house near Stopsley in the early 90s, they were always mucking about. The only time I saw one of them cry was on her 18th birthday, when she'd had too much snakebite, apparently it was cos "I can't be the dancing queen anymore!". Regarding the alleged inherent whiteness of the scene, my mate Jason, who's 2nd gen Jamaican, has everything Bauhaus and Siouxsie ever recorded.

Similarly, I grew up on a street in the early 80s where, one month, there'd be a load of kids with pink hair, CND badges and leather jackets hanging around outside Forbuoys. Then, a few months later, same kids would still be there, but with crop cuts and harrington jackets. They'd be like, 'Skinheads, skinheads, na na na na na na!" We were like, I thought you were into Greenpeace? There was way more crossover than the self-appointed historians let on. Ever seen pics of die-hard Trojan skinhead Tim Wells when he was a teenager? He's got a cut off denim jacket, spikey hair and a Motorhead T-shirt!

The great unsung goth LP is "Wonderful and Frightening World of the Fall"

I loooooove motorhead...but anyway Goth is most definitely no longer a primarily white scene, at least over here. Even skater has crossed over in a big way.

zhao
30-04-2009, 01:51 AM
I don't remember goths being miserable at all, the ones I met were all really humorous.

same here mostly. cept my best friend was a kind of miserable, but more maniacal and arrogant, fucker. he lives in singapore now and makes really nice electroacoustic based on Arabic tuning.


"I can't be the dancing queen anymore!"

haha cute. i hung out with girls like this. there was this red haired girl named Sandy... her boyfriend was this biker dude who is really fat now. i wonder where she is...