jazz - any help appreciated

loof

Member
i saw this the other day and really enjoyed it, i'd like to find out more about this kind of thing.

i've had the odd flirtation with jazz but have struggled to maintain any kind of sustained interest. i really like the max roach and billy cobham i've heard and i got art blakey's orgy in rhythm recently which i liked too.

i'm a tad ashamed to say i the subtleties of miles davis' kind of blue are wasted on me. i know it's supposed to be one of the greatest jazz albums ever and the modal thing important for the devopment of jazz etc, but, to date, it has done nothing for me other than bore me shitless.

that clip of parker and diz has a more immediate appeal to me and i think that bebop might be a good route into jazz. i'm thinking dizzy gillespie, charlie parker and tadd dameron might be good to start off with but was wondering if anyone here had any ideas of specific recordings and other artists.

i'd be interested to hear how anyone here got into/started hating jazz, if anyone can be arsed.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
I was a total jazz hater for years and years, to the point of walking out of rooms if people played it.

First thing that opened the door for me was silver flares electric Miles (especially Dark Magus & Bitches Brew).

Now living with a jazz head has got me further in, ones I especially like are Ole Coltrane


and one by a guy called Lee Morgan called The Sidewinder


But it varies. There's so much, and depends on my mood, but I've definitely found my 'jazz mood', which never existed before. Good luck. Kind of Blue does suck though, you're right.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Stick with Miles! Try some of his later stuff if you don't like 'kind of blue', working backwards from stuff like On the Corner, Bitches Brew, live-evil, Jack Johnson, In a silent way, filles de kilimanjaro etc. might provide you with a way into jazz. Thats what I did, though I haven't explored too much further back tbh. All those I've mentioned are complete masterpieces though.
 

Jonesy

Wild Horses
I started off with A Kind of Blue and Coltrane's A Love Supreme and Giant Steps, as have so many. I've pretty much moved forward in time and only recently gone back to stuff made earlier.

I highly recommend Brian Morton and Richard Cook's 'Penguin Guide to Jazz'. They have a 'core collection' which is a great guide through the most essnetial recordings. I'm constantly picking it up.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
a few recommendations for the jazz beginner, as next step after the obviously great records like Kind of Blue or A Love Supreme. selected for enjoyablility as well as importance, from the broad "modern" period extending from 60 - 2000. excluded are both earlier classic styles such as Dixieland or Bebop or Big Band, also leaving out later day completely improvised/free recordings.

Alice Coltrane - Ptah, The El Daoud
Art Ensemble Of Chicago - A Jackson in Your House / Message to Our Folks
Bill Evans - But Beautiful (feat - Stan Getz)
Borah Bergman Trio - Luminescence
Carlo Actis Dato & Baldo Martinez - Folklore Imaginario A
Ceci Taylor Unit - Spring of 2 Blue-J's
Charles Mingus - mingus_ah_um
Dewey Redman - The Ear Of the Behearer
Dorothy Ashby - Afro Harping
Duke Ellington - The Afro-Eurasian Eclipse
Eric Dolphy - Conversations
Freddie Hubbard - The Body And The Soul - 1963
ike quebec - soul samba
Jimmy Giuffre 3 - Fusion / Thesis
John Zorn - elegy
John Coltraine - Meditations
Kahil El'zabar Ritual Trio _Africa n' da Blues
Lee Konitz - Subconscious-Lee
Mal Waldron - Blood & Guts
Masada - Live in Sevilla
Miles Davis - In A Silent Way
Misha Mengelberg Trio - No Idea
Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century
Paul Bley - In The Envenings Out There
Prince Lasha - The Cry!
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Rip, Rig and Panic - Now Please Don't You Cry
Roswell Rudd - Regeneration
Steve Lacy - The Holy La
Sun Ra and his Arkestra - Languidity
Thelonious Monk - Monk's Dream
Warne Marsh - Jazz of Two Cities
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds
VA: New Thing! Deep Jazz from the USA 1970-1980

was very difficult to choose 1 from the discographz of many of these artists... with Steve Lacy for instance, im sure everyone here knows whose tune "The Wire" the magazine was named after, i wanted to list all 100+ albums. so these are just suggested starting points.
 
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empty mirror

remember the jackalope
that's a great list zhao
some of my favorite jazz records on there
i have a soft spot for that impulse mystical jazz stuff like alice coltrane, pharaoh sanders, and the like

i am sympathetic to woebot's list

i would suggest madlib's jazz compilation----the source material for shades of blue---called "shades of blue untinted"

i am partial to sun ra myself but i am not sure i would recommend anything other than lanquidity to a novice----maybe start with the sun ra Space is the Place DVD? the current sun ra arkestra rips by the way. they are touring europe now. i don't think i have seen any band as much as them. a friend of mine (an archivist) found a couple old (early 70s?) sun ra films that we previewed on his steenbeck----he hasn't found the sound reels yet though!
n8225701_38367154_5034.jpg

(also, very soon, we will have yaya from the arkestra guesting on our radio show)
 

STN

sou'wester
Can't add too much to Zhao's list. I love Tristano by Lennie Tristano (the one with a pink and black cover; he may have done two albums called that). Love for Sale by Cecil Taylor is worth checking out (not as mental as the excellent Conquistador), as is Time Waits by Bud Powell. Ornette's two Live At Stockholm LPs are what I always want a lot of jazz to sound like. Thelonius Monk Plays Duke Ellington is beautiful. Spirit by Albert Ayler is powerful stuff too.

Have we had Mingus's The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady?

In A Silent Way by Miles Davis is probably my favourite record. For his earlier stuff I don't think you can beat Live at Carnegie Hall. I never really play Kind of Blue.

Coltrane's My Favourite Things would be a good, cheap start.

Edit: second Sloan'es Ole Coltane
 
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empty mirror

remember the jackalope
rahsaan roland kirk's bright moments really cooks and it is pretty accessible, imo.
my favorite record ever (in any genre) is louis armstrong's singin' & playin'

i can't say i understand the hate for Kind of Blue in this thread
it is sonic morphine, like a lot of chet baker, and lee morgan
it just slows down my heartrate and breathing
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
^^ Fuck Zhao, selecta selecta. :D . Deliberately avoided posting in this last night to give me the time to go away and think of helpful suggestiosns, but you've just about made any contribution I could make reduntant! Lots of great choices from the other posters as well.

Still, though.... hmmm.... loof, have you heard Gillespie's Carnegie Hall concert from 1947 that has Parker guesting on a few tracks? Top stuff, features intense versions of Night In Tunisia and Groovin High. Not sure how to get hold of it though, I only have it on dodgy quality cassette copy.
Can understand why Zhao avoided the free improv/abstract/avant-garde stuff, but if you are interested in exploring free jazz, the two main entry points are Coltrane's 60s quartet, which people have been discussing already, and Ornette Coleman's classic records made between about 1958 - 62. The Shape of Jazz to Come and Change of the Century being probably my two favourite Coleman records. Both these artists, in very different sounding ways, were exploring the tensions between abstraction and conventional structures. If you dig their records, then try Albert Ayler, early Archie Shepp, Cecil Taylor, which are all further into full-on free playing. (Taylor was a big influence on The Pop Group if you're into post-punk stuff).
Can also suggest a few pre-bop things if you're interested: Parker first recorded with Jay McShann's band in the early 40s, so that's a good starting point. Dameron also had big-band recordings under his own name around the mid-40s I think, although not very familiar with them. Then try Duke Ellington's records from the turn of the 30s/40s, probably the ultimate in big group jazz. Then Count Basie's band from the mid to late 30s, greatest rhythm section of their time, etc etc. Then could try Artie Shaw's stuff from the 30s and early 40s, but prepare for a certain proportion of cheese. These are all big-bands, with the emphasis on great group playing, arrangements and driving rhythm, for smaller groups with more soloing space try Lester Young's and Coleman Hawkin's small group recordings, also Benny Goodmans's trio and quartet stuff which I rate more than his big-band work. Then going back further, Luis Russell's stuff from the early 30s is pretty cool, hard-driving. Then Ellington again, late 20s through to mid 30s, his first period of greatness. Then Louis Armstrong's Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings from the late 20s, and the slightly earlier recordings from Jelly Roll Morton, both solo and with the Red Hot Peppers, and from King Oliver with his band. Solo piano records from the 20s and 30s are something I rate quite a lot: both boogie - Meade Lux Lewis, Albert Ammons, Pete Johnson - and stride - Earl Hines, James P Johnson, Fats Waller, Willie Smith. Apologies for potential info overload here - as most of this stuff was recorded on singles, it's best picked up on compilations. There are loads about, often seemingly aimed at a 'golden oldies' nostaglia market, reckon copyright must have expired on a lot of the records due to passing time.
Anyone who is into drum-heavy music, whether dance or otherwise, just has to listen to Max Roach and Abbey Lincoln's duet track, Tryptych. Awesome.
My feeling is that hard bop is jazz's equivalent to classic jungle, and that traditional New Orleans type stuff is its equivalent to ardcore. (Never mind the fact that there's about 30-40 years between them and they barely sound anything like each other! :p ).
 

loof

Member
ta very much to everyone who's contributed so far, i'm finding it really interesting to hear what different people are recommending. keep 'em coming. bear with me tho, cos i don't know if i'll be able to listen to everything everyone's recommended straight away (there is a fair bit here already).

i was aware of woebot's list as well as kirk degiorgio's hall of fame both of which i intend to work my way through eventually. the degiorgio list in particular seems failry bop-light (and it's not strictly a jazz list per se anyway i suppose, looks worth exploring anyway tho). i mean there's a fairly long blue note section but he doesn't really talk about the records in it at all.

that list that zhao posted looks pretty damn good, any chance of a bop era one?

i found tentative andy's description of the hard bop era as jazz's classic-jungle interesting. jungle was the first thing that came into my mind when listening to the layered percussion in art blakey's orgy in rhythm, which is probably why i found it fairly easy to get into. i mean to say i found it literally jungle-like, don't really know enough about jazz in it's entirety to apply the hcc analogy to it.

i think i've got my heart set on exploring the bop era to start off with, then maybe moving on to fusiony type and other stuff later. that clip of dizzy and parker has really made a mark on me, find it genuinely exciting.
 

Jonesy

Wild Horses
On a Brit tip...

...I picked up Tubby Hayes' excellent 'Down In The Village' at a record fair this week and can't stop playing it. Can highly recommend Stan Tracey's 'Under Milk Wood' too. To borrow Empty Mirror's phrase, 'Starless and Bible Black' is sonic morphine.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
When it comes to sonic morphine my fix comes in the form of the Modern Jazz Quartet - too 'easy' for some...but that's their loss. When it comes to subtle, sophisticated, intelligent and, yes, swinging sound, they're unmatched.

Always a tricky one, helping an absolute beginner, but Loof, I'm heartened by your starting point because if Bird hits the spot you're already demonstrating a good ear! Watching that clip again lead to a few minutes laughter as I also clicked on the 'Dexterity' track to find the poster trying to pass off the 'Hot House' film as the same band playing 'Dexterity'. The 'Hot House' clip is the only known footage of Parker.

Did someone say 'Kind Of Blue' sucks? :eek: Each to their own. It's a big musical world and many just dig deeply into certain eras. I've known people who were so crazy about Blue Note they didn't go much further forward or back in time. In a way that's understandable since the label has come to symbolise all that's 'cool' about the music, from the precision sound to the big beat of Blakey and, of course, those sleeves.

Interesting list posted earlier by zhao but personally I'd be reluctant to offer John's missus, Sun Ra or AEC to starters. Then again, the starter might already have a taste for the avant garde in other genres.

Andy, I recall D&B being compared to Jazz way back...always amused me, as if trick cut'n'paste breaks somehow made it like...Max Roach. Then producers started using acoustic 'jazz' bass lines and everyone got really carried away. Funny point you make about New Orleans and ardcore, though, because to travel that far back in time and appreciate early Armstrong or Jelly Roll is somehow representative of a hardcore approach...even the crackles are challenging...never mind the prejudice against borne out of old-men-playing-in-pubs.

As for Parker, the complete masters of his on either Dial (as someone's mentioned), Savoy or Verve are logical starting points. You can't go wrong there. Should be quite cheap, but since he's already your first inspiration, pay what you have to because that stuff doesn't fade in terms of meaning or magnificance.

I recommend going to http://www.last.fm/ and starting a Charlie Parker radio station (you'll see what I mean when you get there) - you'll hear loads of stuff with info and links.

Enjoy the journey.
 

Client Eastwood

Well-known member
I cant say im a huge jazz fan but would like to mention Alice Coltrane - Journey into Satchinada and Ptah, the El Douid with have been mentioned for thier eastern sound.

And if i feel like getting rinsed so to speak ill listen to Pharoah Saunders - Karma. An intense listen who come out of the other end with a sharp intake of breath.

Anyone one who likes In a Silent Way will probably like A Tribute to Jack Johnson too. Same sort of grooved based jazz by Miles Davis.
 

empty mirror

remember the jackalope
^ those are each fantastic records
in the very top tier
coltrane's a love supreme should be in that list

all that mystical jazz
mmph!!!
 

STN

sou'wester
Anyone one who likes In a Silent Way will probably like A Tribute to Jack Johnson too. Same sort of grooved based jazz by Miles Davis.

With Billy Cobham no less. McLaughlin's playing on that album is beyond wild.

Also Filles De Killimanjaro. Tony Williams's name on a record is a big plus, though I can happily accept that Trio of Doom are probably crap.
 
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