Backwards?

With DJL's mix currently floating my boat I'm feeling positive about Grime taking its place amongst dancehall, hiphop and jungle as a properly emotive form that has legs. But I'm not going further than that. Backwards is not going to cross over -- but Kano deserves to do OK and probably will.

i like this track a lot.
however, matt's point about grandiose ideas is interesting.
i am almost entirely convinced that grime will NEVER get big in any way shape or form.
i blame this solely on the scene itself.
could people like bizzle, riko, kano, trim, titch etc really ever hope to take on em, dre, jay-z, damon dash, kanye? of course they bloody couldn't, especially when grime is so wilfully insular, impenetrable and cliquey... hell, we've seen a bit of that on this board, even!
people doing alright are immediately branded shit, people who haven't followed the exact accepted pattern of career progression are dismissed, blah, blah, blah - this sort of attitude won't help anyone get anywhere.
where hip-hop and ragga create their own renegade economies etc just as everything in the ardkore 'nuum has done, they seem to have an intrinsic work ethic that grime just doesn't - these guys get paid because they're established and fucking work their arses off and are serious and professional about it.
i don't like saying this because i love the *sound* of grime and lots more about it, too, but if hip hop and ragga are respectively the city trader and slightly dodgy "importer/exporter" of the music world - hungry, aspirant and actively chasing their dreams - grime would have to be your bullshitting mate, full of grand ideas, always talking a good game but too lazy to tear himself away from the couch and the Playstation.

grime has a lot more entreprenurial spirit and self-made business ethic than say, uk hip hop though.

i think part of the problem is that bizzle, riko, kano et al want to take on the big hip hop boys and work on their turf rather than forge their own territory out. british artists will never be able to take on americans and beat them at their own game. they need to stop trying to go commercial so prematurely.

i dont think the unfavourable attitude some people in the scene like logan have towards sov is really going to hurt anyone or the scene though - riko still works with sov, shes working with big grime producers, she mentions and is thought of as grime in every article written about her. this isnt going to hurt the scene. shes not *really* being ostracised, as people are playing her stuff on rinse and big artists are working with her.

Riko and Giffle were berating Sparkie from Rhythm Division for stocking this tune on Logan's set last Friday - I'll post up the set tommorow: "Where'dyou get the tune? Not Rhythmneh Divisineh!?"

As far as the potential of grime to go much further than the UKG scene... why not? You've got to have a positive attitude innit! I don't think there should be as much emphasis put on the previous successes/failures of the hardcore continuum, as the addition of genuine vocal talent places grime in a different context. Although London kids today listen to hiphop, I'd say the large proportion of them (who most probably aren't in the ukhiphop scene) would aim to be a big Garage MC. Why can't this music coexist and prosper for an extended period in the same as way as bashment, even if it never gets to the major level of commercial hiphop. People will always want to be involved in something they feel originated where they themselves are from, and as long as you don't get many Doogzs and J2Ks willing to jettison their association with the scene they came from then I can't see why grime can't develop over a long period. Otherwise we might as well f*** listnening to rinse and rawuk and start buying The Game and all that shiznit.

Ach! said:

Why can't this music coexist and prosper for an extended period in the same as way as bashment, even if it never gets to the major level of commercial hiphop. .

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exactly. but there seems to be this attitude that if you dont make it to that level, you havent really made it at all.

grime's prospects in the home of hip hop

here's some oo-er statistics from someone who's in the industry:

Stateside, Dizzee's sales went from 45K (Boy) to 10K (Showtime)

Stateside, Wiley's album, released domestically on XL/Beggars sold.... wait for it... . 940 copies.

HOWEVER
a new head of steam seems to be building in terms of hipster interest, so got some hopes for R the R, etc

the one who has even a remote chance here is Kano, cos his measured flow doesn't sound rushed (dizzee comes across like an alien) and for some reason his accent isn't impenetrable but is distinctive to stand out

Stateside, Dizzee's sales went from 45K (Boy) to 10K (Showtime

- damn thats crazy. I actually thought the 2nd one was better....

Stateside, Wiley's album, released domestically on XL/Beggars sold.... wait for it... . 940 copies.

- this I can believe. You gotta really be in the States for around a year to make a small dent


HOWEVER
a new head of steam seems to be building in terms of hipster interest, so got some hopes for R the R, etc

- imagine hipsters keeping this alive. How 'ghetto' lol........

the one who has even a remote chance here is Kano, cos his measured flow doesn't sound rushed (dizzee comes across like an alien) and for some reason his accent isn't impenetrable but is distinctive to stand out

- ok I understand this but then whose next seriously and im talking about who can actually deliver the goods not wasteman mc's. I think Bruza - he has the charm, wit and most importantly he doesnt really pose a 'threat' in the sense that white english consumers of the music can sort of relate to the whole cockney/east end accent thing.

the fact showtime sold so much less than BIDC in the US brings a wry smile to my face. for all dizzee's attempt to polish up his sound and make it more hip hop in aesthetic, it didnt break the homeland of hip hop how he obviously (?) wanted it to.

gumdrops said:

the fact showtime sold so much less than BIDC in the US brings a wry smile to my face. for all dizzee's attempt to polish up his sound and make it more hip hop in aesthetic, it didnt break the homeland of hip hop how he obviously (?) wanted it to.

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that sounds like hating to me but then again it is a wry smile lol.....

I agree that he shouldnt attempt to be more hip-hop as the blank english crazy boy is a gimmick that can really work in the states but I will say that in terms of actual songwriting, thought and lyrical viewpoint Showtime is waaaaaaaaaay better that BIDC.

tactics, a word of advice: don't just cut and paste whole large posts from people as quotes and take some of the promotional shit out of your sign-off. while i'm sure you have good stuff to say, i haven't read a single one of your posts yet because i don't know where to start/stop. it doesn't make for easy viewing

stelfox said:

tactics, a word of advice: don't just cut and paste whole large posts from people as quotes and take some of the promotional shit out of your sign-off. while i'm sure you have good stuff to say, i haven't read a single one of your posts yet because i don't know where to start/stop. it doesn't make for easy viewing

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ok you mean my quoted reply to blissbloggers posts. I understand - I erased the quote markers. Sorry all. Im still learning how to post here. Forgive me.

I think grime's problem is that it still has to 'crack' London before contemplating conquering anywhere/anything else. there are still way too many people in London who don't like grime but are into dancehall, hip hop, 2 step (check the FM dial). Getting the London 'urban' scenesters onside in London (quickly) followed by the rest of the UK, will have a massive impact on sales and the profile of the scene

so you know, it was mainly hipsters and scenesters that are into dizzee in the states.

also with run the road coming out on vice suggests as well that is where grime's market in the states is.

i don't see grime having a huge impact in the african american community in the states any time soon because it is quite culturally different.

hmm a mate said he heard lil john on xfm being interviewed and the only track he wanted to hear was forward.
definitley some cross over with the crunkside of stuff, perhaps why labels are signing the more energetic stuff track by track.
maybe doing it that way willl break the states and the uk, appeal to the quick aggressive flash of an energetic single, even rockers can do that.

if success is measured in hits grime has two hopes: Roll Deep's "Shake a Leg" and Kano's "Brown Eyes."

but one key problem with grime's future is the current failure for the scene to interact properly with the mainstream music industry. there's a few forward thinking independent-esq labels (679, XL, Relentless, Causal etc) but the big majors have stayed well clear. the people who work in major labels seem to find the double problems of working with "road" artists too difficult and selling "road" artists to a mass audience equally difficult. to me this is both the fault of the grime MCs and the major label players.

the consequence of this is in the absence of mass marketing muscle, they will never achieve the heights of Eminem size success (cf Stelfox's point). but then when did a british band last truly do that in the US? the Spice Girls?

personally i dont really care - if i needed mainstream success to justify my interest, i wouldnt even be listening to grime and dubstep. i do feel for the artists though, if they truly want success measured in those terms.

i just don't think the average american music listener will be into it, at least not in its current form.

lets face it, there really is not an extremely marketable quality about most of the artists.

much less so from an american point of view. there would have to be radical changes for it to really be commercial. as an american living in scotland for a year and a half or so even i can't relate to the ins and outs of the extremely localised london slang and what grime mcs are talking about in some songs.

i feel, the music will translate but not so much the mcs.

I think a key in the UK is the under 18's. On Channel 4 in the mornings over the last month there have been many 'schools programmes' featuring current school kids and the garage/grime culture is highly prevalent. On that Jamie Oliver program last week where he is trying to change the school kids dinners to something healthy there was a bit where he was talking to the kids in the playground and one of them was saying that most people can be divided into 'grungers' or 'garage'. This is even more obvious on the streets where I'm from and its getting cooler to be a chav and hence a garage/grime head by the day. As this age group hits club-going age 16-18 this and next year I think things will start getting much bigger. Patience needed

Blackdown said:

there's a few forward thinking independent-esq labels (679, XL, Relentless, Causal etc) but the big majors have stayed well clear. the people who work in major labels seem to find the double problems of working with "road" artists too difficult and selling "road" artists to a mass audience equally difficult. to me this is both the fault of the grime MCs and the major label players.

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the big boys in the industry know exactly what they're doing - 679 is owned by warners, relentless is owned by ministry of sound, casual is an offshoot of island. you sell "road" artists by setting up a new label. put someone in charge who bridges the gap and build things from there.

I've seen things like bruza being discussed on "industry" messageboards, for example, frequented by major label a+r's and management... they're watching... if any grime artists look like they're gonna be capable of producing 2 or 3 big albums, then the majors will step in. but for now it works out best for them to either put a toe in the water via sub-labels or just sit back and watch to see if any artists can cut it independently.

the majors don't need grime. they don't need to look like they're at the cutting edge... and as long as grime artists keep talking about how they want to be as big as the US hip hop artists and make serious money, the majors can be confident that all they need to do is step in with a fat cheque once the time is right and the underground will come running. for now, as mms points out, it's just cherry-picking.

a lot of current grime artists need to develop a bit more before they're major material

- MCs should learn to pick the most suitable lyrics and flow for the right beats... not just spit your current hot verse over whatever's in front of you, whether it fits or not. I guess that's the pirate influence coming through - you can't pick the beats, so just rhyme over the top with whatever bars you've written recently. this is where "production" in the old school sense comes in - the big picture... hot beat + hot lyrics does not always equal hot track. lady sovereign has this guidance - you can hear in in the way her tracks are structured and arranged. that's medasyn, right? sticky's productions also have that "finished" feel... someone with experience and a good ear moulding things so that they work.

- the "crew" mentality doesn't really help either - the best producers should work with the best MCs... doesn't matter who's got beef with who... the music should transcend that if they really want to compete with the big US names.

but as blackdown says - all of the above only really matters if the artists want it to matter. success can be defined in many different ways.

Showtime only sold fewer copies due to timing and promotion rather than content - remember that Boy In Da Corner was only released in the US half a year before Showtime. And XL was still tied up enough in BIDC that when I did a release party for Showtime, all the posters/stickers/etc. in the package were for BIDC.