doppelgangers

empty mirror

remember the jackalope
hellman's The Shooting and a recent viewing of the Twin Peaks series has gotten me thinking about doubles. currently reading dostoyevsky's The Double. it comes up in Tarkovsky's Solaris, kind of, and in Carpenter's The Thing. i am sure y'all can grow this list.

activating relevant schema:
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what's this all about? paging baudrillard buffs and lacanians.
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
I must have a doppelganger - he was/is a criminal. Two cops got out of their car years ago to ask me how long I'd been 'out' (of prison). It took me a long time to convince them of who I really was...and even then they left smiling as if they really didn't believe me.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
The Third Part of The Night revolves around the way that the main character meets someone who is the precise double of his dead wife - just as another case of mistaken identity causes her husband to be arrested, clearing the way for the main guy but leaving him racked with guilt.
Also Possession from the same director (Zulawski) has Sam Neil's character involved with his wife and his son's school teacher who appears to be identical. At the end Samn Neil is in turn seemingly replaced by a demonic double. Seems to be some kind of obsession for Zulawski.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Of course. Should have thought of that one.
So why are doppelgangers so beloved of film makers - I honestly don't know why Adjani plays two characters in Possession except to make the film weirder. I can kind of see the point of replacing Sam Neil's character with a replica and that's kind of explained but the other duplicate is odd - maybe it's just there to balance the fact that there are two of the guy. I guess you could argue that the film is some kind of metaphor for a relationship so maybe it's fair that both participants in that relationship have two sides.

This film is relevant to the thread

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/23090/tiresia/

As well as the fact that the main character is played by two people there is the fact that one actor also (confusingly) plays two roles. It's kind of got two people being one in opposite ways.
 

you

Well-known member
Laura Palmer?????? In twin peaks........ then Dern in Inland Empire????? Real and HyperReal, people and celebs, light and dark, fiction and reality...... The Double is fantastic.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
In the middle ages, the double was generally regarded as a comic figure. For instance, in the play "A Servant of Two Masters"... At some point, the double became horrifying.

The double is closely related to impostors.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Laura Palmer?????? In twin peaks........ then Dern in Inland Empire????? Real and HyperReal, people and celebs, light and dark, fiction and reality...... The Double is fantastic."
David Lynch often plays around with identity like this doesn't he? Sometimes what appears to be the same character is played by two people. This is what happens in Tiresias and this is in some way the opposite of a doppel but it's also related I think.

"In the middle ages, the double was generally regarded as a comic figure. For instance, in the play "A Servant of Two Masters"... At some point, the double became horrifying."
Not always though. There must be loads of comedies with doubles and identical twins and stuff - plus what's that one where Billy Crystal (is it?) makes loads of copies of himself and then they start arguing and stuff?
 

empty mirror

remember the jackalope
D
Not always though. There must be loads of comedies with doubles and identical twins and stuff - plus what's that one where Billy Crystal (is it?) makes loads of copies of himself and then they start arguing and stuff?

^ you are thinking of Multiplicity, right? with Michael Keaton, was it?

that reminds me of "house of cosby"

the wiki has a lot to say about the subject of doppelgangers

it seems all the interesting historical hero types have seen their double, shelley, lincoln, donne.
 

nochexxx

harco pronting
David Lynch often plays around with identity like this doesn't he?


after watching mullholland drive i theorised endlessly about whether the blonde actress character plays herself in two separate alternate realities. not sure if this is the case though, anyone come to this conclusion?
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
What''s the Cronenberg one about twins, Dead Ringers? Very gynaecological, genuinely disturbing, as I recall. The girl I saw it with physically puked afterwards (no jokes, ta).
 

empty mirror

remember the jackalope

from the wiki:
Percy Bysshe Shelley

On 8 July 1822, Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet, drowned in the Bay of Spezia near Lerici. On 15 August, while staying at Pisa, Mary Shelley wrote a letter to Maria Gisborne in which she relayed Percy's claims to her that he had met his own doppelgänger. A week after Mary's nearly fatal miscarriage, in the early hours of 23 June, Percy had had a nightmare about the house collapsing in a flood, and
... talking it over the next morning he told me that he had had many visions lately — he had seen the figure of himself which met him as he walked on the terrace & said to him — "How long do you mean to be content" — No very terrific words & certainly not prophetic of what has occurred. But Shelley had often seen these figures when ill; but the strangest thing is that Mrs Williams saw him. Now Jane though a woman of sensibility, has not much imagination & is not in the slightest degree nervous — neither in dreams or otherwise. She was standing one day, the day before I was taken ill, [15 June] at a window that looked on the Terrace with Trelawny — it was day — she saw as she thought Shelley pass by the window, as he often was then, without a coat or jacket — he passed again — now as he passed both times the same way — and as from the side towards which he went each time there was no way to get back except past the window again (except over a wall twenty feet from the ground) she was struck at seeing him pass twice thus & looked out & seeing him no more she cried — "Good God can Shelley have leapt from the wall? Where can he be gone?" Shelley, said Trelawny — "No Shelley has past — What do you mean?" Trelawny says that she trembled exceedingly when she heard this & it proved indeed that Shelley had never been on the terrace & was far off at the time she saw him.[2] Percy Shelley's drama Prometheus Unbound (1820) contains the following passage in Act I: "Ere Babylon was dust, / The Magus Zoroaster, my dear child, / Met his own image walking in the garden. / That apparition, sole of men, he saw. / For know there are two worlds of life and death: / One that which thou beholdest; but the other / Is underneath the grave, where do inhabit / The shadows of all forms that think and live / Till death unite them and they part no more...."

John Donne

Izaak Walton claimed that John Donne, the English metaphysical poet, saw his wife's doppelgänger in 1612 in Paris, on the same night as the stillbirth of their daughter.
Two days after their arrival there, Mr. Donne was left alone, in that room in which Sir Robert, and he, and some other friends had dined together. To this place Sir Robert returned within half an hour; and, as he left, so he found Mr. Donne alone; but, in such ecstacy, and so altered as to his looks, as amazed Sir Robert to behold him in so much that he earnestly desired Mr. Donne to declare befallen him in the short time of his absence? to which, Mr. Donne was not able to make a present answer: but, after a long and perplext pause, did at last say, I have seen a dreadful Vision since I saw you: I have seen my dear wife pass twice by me through this room, with her hair hanging about her shoulders, and a dead child in her arms: this, I have seen since I saw you. To which, Sir Robert replied; Sure Sir, you have slept since I saw you; and, this is the result of some melancholy dream, which I desire you to forget, for you are now awake. To which Mr. Donnes reply was: I cannot be surer that I now live, then that I have not slept since I saw you: and am, as sure, that at her second appearing, she stopped, looked me in the face, and vanished.[3] This account first appears in the edition of Life of Dr John Donne published in 1675, and is attributed to "a Person of Honour... told with such circumstances, and such asseveration, that... I verily believe he that told it me, did himself believe it to be true." At the time Donne was indeed extremely worried about his pregnant wife, and was going through severe illness himself. However, R. C. Bald points out that Walton's account "is riddled with inaccuracies. He says that Donne crossed from London to Paris with the Drurys in twelve days, and that the vision occurred two days later; the servant sent to London to make inquiries found Mrs Donne still confined to her bed in Drury House. Actually, of course, Donne did not arrive in Paris until more than three months after he left England, and his wife was not in London but in the Isle of Wight. The still-born child was buried on 24 January.... Yet as late as 14 April Donne in Paris was still ignorant of his wife's ordeal."[4] In January, Donne was still at Amiens. His letters do not support the story as given.[5]

Abraham Lincoln

Carl Sandburg's biography contains the following:
A dream or illusion had haunted Lincoln at times through the winter. On the evening of his election he had thrown himself on one of the haircloth sofas at home, just after the first telegrams of November 6 had told him he was elected President, and looking into a bureau mirror across the room he saw himself full length, but with two faces.It bothered him; he got up; the illusion vanished; but when he lay down again there in the glass again were two faces, one paler than the other. He got up again, mixed in the election excitement, forgot about it; but it came back, and haunted him. He told his wife about it; she worried too.A few days later he tried it once more and the illusion of the two faces again registered to his eyes. But that was the last; the ghost since then wouldn't come back, he told his wife, who said it was a sign he would be elected to a second term, and the death pallor of one face meant he wouldn't live through his second term.[6] This is adapted from Washington in Lincoln's Time (1895) by Noah Brooks, who claimed that he had heard it from Lincoln himself on 9 November 1864, at the time of his re-election, and that he had printed an account "directly after." He also claimed that the story was confirmed by Mary Todd Lincoln, and partially confirmed by Private Secretary John Hay (who thought it dated from Lincoln's nomination, not his election). Brooks's version is as follows (in Lincoln's own words):
It was just after my election in 1860, when the news had been coming in thick and fast all day and there had been a great "hurrah, boys," so that I was well tired out, and went home to rest, throwing myself down on a lounge in my chamber. Opposite where I lay was a bureau with a swinging glass upon it (and here he got up and placed furniture to illustrate the position), and looking in that glass I saw myself reflected nearly at full length; but my face, I noticed had two separate and distinct images, the tip of the nose of one being about three inches from the tip of the other. I was a little bothered, perhaps startled, and got up and looked in the glass, but the illusion vanished. On lying down again, I saw it a second time, plainer, if possible, than before; and then I noticed that one of the faces was a little paler — say five shades — than the other. I got up, and the thing melted away, and I went off, and in the excitement of the hour forgot all about it — nearly, but not quite, for the thing would once in a while come up, and give me a little pang as if something uncomfortable had happened. When I went home again that night I told my wife about it, and a few days afterward I made the experiment again, when (with a laugh), sure enough! the thing came back again; but I never succeeded in bringing the ghost back after that, though I once tried very industriously to show it to my wife, who was somewhat worried about it. She thought it was a "sign" that I was to be elected to a second term of office, and that the paleness of one of the faces was an omen that I should not see life through the last term.[7] Lincoln was known to be superstitious,[8] and old mirrors will occasionally produce double images; whether this Janus illusion can be counted as a doppelgänger is perhaps debatable, though probably no more than other such claims of doppelgängers. An alternate consideration, however, suggests that Lincoln suffered vertical strabismus in his left eye,[9] a disorder which could induce visions of a vertically-displaced image.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Near the end of Book XI of his autobiography, Dichtung und Wahrheit ("Truth and Fiction"), Goethe wrote, almost in passing:
Amid all this pressure and confusion I could not forego seeing Frederica once more. Those were painful days, the memory of which has not remained with me. When I reached her my hand from my horse, the tears stood in her eyes; and I felt very uneasy. I now rode along the foot-path toward Drusenheim, and here one of the most singular forebodings took possession of me. I saw, not with the eyes of the body, but with those of the mind, my own figure coming toward me, on horseback, and on the same road, attired in a dress which I had never worn, — it was pike-gray [hecht-grau], with somewhat of gold. As soon as I shook myself out of this dream, the figure had entirely disappeared. It is strange, however, that, eight years afterward, I found myself on the very road, to pay one more visit to Frederica, in the dress of which I had dreamed, and which I wore, not from choice, but by accident. However, it may be with matters of this kind generally, this strange illusion in some measure calmed me at the moment of parting. The pain of quitting for ever noble Alsace, with all I had gained in it, was softened; and, having at last escaped the excitement of a farewell, I, on a peaceful and quiet journey, pretty well regained my self-possession.[10]
 
In the middle ages, the double was generally regarded as a comic figure. For instance, in the play "A Servant of Two Masters"... At some point, the double became horrifying.

The double is closely related to impostors.

I think Shakespeare is the first to realise that the doppelganger is horrifying rather than (in fact, as well as) funny- The Comedy of Errors (1594) originally derives from Plautus's Menaechmi, about twins who have been separated since early childhood being mistaken for one another when one arrives in the other's hometown (in ignorance). But in the original it's purely mechanical farce, noone seems worried, whereas Shakespeare has his twin fearing insanity and accused of satanic possession.
 

you

Well-known member
Lynch is all about ins and outs, goods and bads dopplegangers, etc alternate worlds..... Another one the comes to mind is the Battlestar Galactica CYLONS! Jeckyl & Hyde.... actually maybe im on abit of a tangent here..... I think a very elemental question is raised by your self being negated by a double representation..... is yourself your facade etc??? This post makes no sense im tired :-(
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Of course. Should have thought of that one.
So why are doppelgangers so beloved of film makers - I honestly don't know why Adjani plays two characters in Possession except to make the film weirder. I can kind of see the point of replacing Sam Neil's character with a replica and that's kind of explained but the other duplicate is odd - maybe it's just there to balance the fact that there are two of the guy. I guess you could argue that the film is some kind of metaphor for a relationship so maybe it's fair that both participants in that relationship have two sides.

This film is relevant to the thread

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/23090/tiresia/

As well as the fact that the main character is played by two people there is the fact that one actor also (confusingly) plays two roles. It's kind of got two people being one in opposite ways.

Anybody else ever seen Altman's 3 Women?? If so, please explain the last 20 minutes of it to me. I got this feeling toward the end that all three female leads were supposed to be representations of either one woman, or of "woman" metaphorical. Anyway that movie baffled me but it seems to fit in here because of the doppleganger aspect of the Mildred, Milly, and Willy naming of the characters.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Lynch is all about ins and outs, goods and bads dopplegangers, etc alternate worlds..... Another one the comes to mind is the Battlestar Galactica CYLONS! Jeckyl & Hyde.... actually maybe im on abit of a tangent here..... I think a very elemental question is raised by your self being negated by a double representation..... is yourself your facade etc??? This post makes no sense im tired :-("
No, I think that sounds like it's hitting the nail on the head to me. If there are two utterly identical "yous" then how do you know that you're the real one? That's a pretty frightening idea I think.
Anyone play that computer game Prince of Persia (it was on the Amiga when I was little)? There was a scene where you had to fight your ghostly double, I'm pretty sure that you couldn't beat him in the normal way but if you put your sword away he put his away mirroring your action, then you ran towards him and he ran towards you and was absorbed leaving your way clear to free the princess or whatever it was you had to do.
Fighting you double is a common enough idea I guess. In one of the superman films the good part of his personality fights the bad part - represented as Clark Kent vs Superman which is pretty much a fight between doppelgangers.

"Anybody else ever seen Altman's 3 Women?? If so, please explain the last 20 minutes of it to me. I got this feeling toward the end that all three female leads were supposed to be representations of either one woman, or of "woman" metaphorical. Anyway that movie baffled me but it seems to fit in here because of the doppleganger aspect of the Mildred, Milly, and Willy naming of the characters."
Not seen it I'm afraid, nor the Cronenbourg one although I know the one you mean with Jeremy Irons.
And whoever said it, you're right it was Keaton not Billy Crystal. I thought that didn't sound right.
 

STN

sou'wester
Rodenbach's Bruges la Morte features a protagonist who becomes obsessed with a woman who he sees as the double of his dead wife. Don't want to give too much away but it's a compelling symbolist tract on the sometimes selfish nature of grief and desire.

See also, The Erasers by Robbe-Grillet, in which the chap ends up (possibly) chasing himself or his double.

Having a doppelganger is never good news is it? In German folklore don't you die if you see yours?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"In German folklore don't you die if you see yours?"
I've heard that somewhere, couldn't tell you if it was a German tradition though.

"See also, The Erasers by Robbe-Grillet, in which the chap ends up (possibly) chasing himself or his double."
I should read that, sounds interesting. Reminds me a little of City of Glass (Paul Auster) where the detective is contracted to follow this guy who gets off the train at New York Grand Central Station (I think it is). Unfortunately two identical people perfectly fititng the description get off so he abitrarily picks one and follows him. I suppose the fact that there is no reason to pick either of the doubles is there to demonstrate the unnecessity of what follows.
 
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