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luka
09-05-2009, 02:27 AM
there are many people tampering with my conciousness. they keep trying to plant sexual thoughts in my head. to link their product or service with a state of sexual arousal. i find this invasive. they do this with voice and image and suggestion. they do it with rhythm and sound. my animal machinery is being manipulated. windy bodieless rock is one method of defence. the divorce from the animal. the identification with conciousness. the observer. is this a mutilation of self? if yes, then what are alternative methods of self-defence?

nomadthethird
09-05-2009, 03:01 AM
if yes, then what are alternative methods of self-defence?

heroin. you'll forget what sexual arousal feels like within a couple of weeks. you will not want anything (except the drug). you will be completely impervious to advertising or other forms of affect-ive invasion. nothing will bother you (except not having the drug).

there's no place in the world like being completely out of the erotic order of things. it would be a very free feeling if there wasn't the matter of expense and ritual that comes along with it.

in the future we're all going to get weekly injections of a time-release drug that will completely denature the libido and cause total ego dissolution. when i rule the world.

DannyL
09-05-2009, 07:58 AM
Meditation.

Yr thread thitle is also a book by Dion Fortune. Outdated 40s magick/qabalist stuff and tall tales. Might be worth a read.

zhao
09-05-2009, 11:25 AM
good thread. (i thought it was about being pushed into a corner by cokeheads with verbal diarrhea at parties)


my animal machinery is being manipulated.

windy bodieless rock.

the divorce from the animal.

is this a mutilation of self?

well my problem with "divorce from the animal" is not so much as it is a "mutilation", but that it is futile. and any prolonged serious denial i believe leads to problems.


heroin.
you will not want anything (except the drug).


replacing submission to advertising and consumerism with submission to any other substance, be it smack or religion, i believe also causes long term problems (some with more obvious consequences than others).


Meditation.

this is the only way. to psychically "clean house", build strength of your own mind, and become more deeply connected with the foundations of your being so as to proceed with clarity of purpose, and resist unwanted invasions of your own will.

to channel sexual energies, not deny them, and to be in control of them. to become master of yourself, and reclaim territory which other entities have perhaps already conquered.

swears
09-05-2009, 06:43 PM
I think you should just have a cheeseburger and a laugh, luka.

poetix
09-05-2009, 08:36 PM
"America takes drugs in psychic defence" was a) Iggy Pop, and b) quoted somewhere in Irvine Welsh's heroin novel Trainspotting, funnily enough.

Coleridge had a similar problem (except that the psychic entity threatening him was a rogue portion of himself), and attempted a similar solution:

For not to think of what I needs must feel,
But to be still and patient, all I can ;
And haply by abstruse research to steal
From my own nature all the natural man--
This was my sole resource, my only plan :
Till that which suits a part infects the whole,
And now is almost grown the habit of my soul.

He also ended up as a smack addict, but that was more to do with taking laudanum for the excruciating pain caused by his gouty testicles.

I find that mathematics takes my mind off things. Mathematics and actually having sex. D. H. Lawrence identified the psychic disease of modernity as "sex in the head" - the life of fantasy, a spectral burlesque. Psychic life should be consequent upon action, he thought, not a separate zone in which regimented figments make up a simulacrum, a compensation for being unable to act. We are captivated by images of fulfilment because we are pacified, and the manufacture of such images serves to reinforce our pacification.

This is, like "hysteria", essentially a theory of displaced psychic function: what belongs in one region of the body (the loins) has moved to another (the head) and taken up residence there, distorting the entire organic order and economy of the body. The question for Lawrence was how to restore bodily experiences to their proper places, how to prevent the disorganisation of the body by would-be occupying forces that sought to subvert its economy for their own ends.

Problems: Lawrence's organicism pulls him towards fascism, especially when he tries to establish a mapping between the problems of the human (sexual) animal and those of the wider social order. He is right of course that the two orders, the intimate and the public, overlap and are reflected in each other. But the metaphor of bodily health and equilibrium is, politically speaking, a dangerous one to apply to human societies. To speak of a body being deprived of the integrity necessary for action is one thing, but societies do not act as integral units - unless they are waging total war against each other. The reverse mapping gives you a militaristic model of bodily integrity - virile asceticism, Spartan effectiveness - which Lawrence seems to have found homoerotically mesmerising. His female characters, considered as projections of aspects of himself, are most interesting when they are not under the spell of virility, when they embody a model of agency and experience that is not concentrated on the holy phallus.

In any case, another thing that one might do in psychic self-defence is re-read The Rainbow. Even if one ended up getting infuriated by it and throwing it across the room, hooting in outraged derision, as I have several times...

Mr. Tea
09-05-2009, 08:42 PM
there are many people tampering with my conciousness. they keep trying to plant sexual thoughts in my head.


I get this all the time. They're called 'women'.

They generally succeed.

empty mirror
09-05-2009, 10:14 PM
http://www.styleforum.net/images/smilies/tinfoil.gif

Mr. Tea
09-05-2009, 11:36 PM
Oh man, I've seen a couple of 'tinfoil hat' smileys before, but that's by far the best one.

Slothrop
10-05-2009, 11:49 AM
I was kind of expecting this thread to relate to the Energy Flash chapter about Wu Tang, Tricky, psychic pollution etc...

poetix
10-05-2009, 11:57 AM
I was kind of expecting this thread to relate to the Energy Flash chapter about Wu Tang, Tricky, psychic pollution etc...

"People said his brain was infected by devils..."

nomadthethird
12-05-2009, 02:11 AM
replacing submission to advertising and consumerism with submission to any other substance, be it smack or religion, i believe also causes long term problems (some with more obvious consequences than others).


I wasn't serious, but I do think that people take drugs for several reasons, and "peer pressure" or TV or whatever it is your health teacher warns you about are the least of them. It's not a solution it's just one method.


societies do not act as integral units

Neither do bodies, 99% of the time.

Unfortunately, having sex (like war) is a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

Only a man could possibly believe that sexuality begins and ends in his loins.

vimothy
12-05-2009, 12:03 PM
Only a woman could disagree!

[ithankyou]

poetix
12-05-2009, 12:34 PM
It's a metaphor, innit. Like "heart".

nomadthethird
12-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I was utterly clueless as to the metaphorical status of that statement.

The problem with it is that sexuality works more or less holistically--there's no way to "relegate" the libido tidily to one area of your psychic life, or to map different psychic investments 'appropriately' to specific functions of a body. Not even by living in the woods and communing with nature and having lots and lots of sex. (Would that it were so easy... goddamn social and political and economic factors always getting in the way of my fantasy idyll.)

I was thinking this business about animal selfhood (qua Lawrence's vision) had a Freudian inflection to it, but now I'm not so sure. Really, Freud was a vitalist. Every last cell is existing away thanks to libido's mysterious life-force ("the procreant urge of the world"), not just the ones in especially ennervated areas. The libido isn't primarily oriented toward intercourse, except in the psyches of those who have completed the Oedipal transformation into adulthood-- and even that rather restrictive genital-orientation is metaphorical, not literal. We fight with ourselves to siphon all of that energy into there, even though it won't fit.

Anyway, the point contra Lawrence is not to become more genital but hopefully to somehow become less so. I've expended quite a lot of energy on anti-genital tantras and sensation-bending, but I still have not become the black belt in polymorphous perversity that I've hoped to. In the end, barring chemical suspension of reality, I like intercourse too much. It's no easy task.

Now they're going to revoke my queer card...

empty mirror
12-05-2009, 01:46 PM
i can't say i like the sound of "anti-genital tantras"
:eek:

nomadthethird
12-05-2009, 01:48 PM
Heh. Well then my guess is that you wouldn't like the feel of them, either :D

poetix
12-05-2009, 08:47 PM
Is it possible to localise sexuality, to assign it to a part that can be named? For Lawrence, “head” and “loins” are distinguishable organs: each names, metaphorically as may be, the place of a particular organic function. “Sex in the head” is the name for sexuality out of its place, for the domination of one function (sexuality, the index of the “natural” being) by another (intellectuality, the distinguishing mark of the “civilised” individual), and the reciprocal subversion of the dominating force by the dominated. Lawrence’s mystical vitalism certainly extends as far as a “cosmic” or global sexuality, a sexuality of nature in which man qua natural being participates. But man does not participate in this global sexuality wholly, or without mediation: part of him (“the head”) is separated, kept in reserve. “The loins” exist as a determinate region, a neighbourhood of sexuality, precisely to the extent that “the head” exists and does not itself wholly and immediately participate in the sexual dance of the All. Man is the animal that imagines he has sexual parts, that names and covers them and declares their names to be unspeakable.

“The loins” is then a name-above-all-names for Lawrence, since it names firstly that which man alone names, by virtue of his intellectual separation from nature, and secondly that which, in man, testifies to the existence of the nature from which he has become estranged. It is within the loins that the upsurge of nature within man commences, spreading out (in orgasm) until it fills the body and obliterates the separate “I”, knocking his majesty the ego temporarily off his throne. Lawrence’s fictional treatment of sex (and especially of orgasm) poetically describes sexual pleasure as diffusing from a point of singular intensity, spreading out in waves and overflowing the entire body. What begins in an “erogenous zone”, a localisation of eros, rises in intensity until it becomes nameless, placeless, unassignable: flooding the senses, annihilating all boundaries and shattering the separate self.

(In this way, Lawrence rather straddles the opposition between "genital" and "diffuse" sexuality, since sexual pleasure for him is always the diffusion of sensation from a point, or several points, of concentration. The distinction between single or multiple "erogenous zones" is perhaps of less interest here than the question of whether eroticism in general requires a topology, a sense - be it "mono-" or "poly-" morphic - of place)

It's important to note here is that Lawrence doesn’t regard the annihilation of the self and the overcoming of human separation from nature as a final goal. Sex humbles the self, reveals its fragility and plasticity, and enables us to see that our intellectual separation occurs within nature, as a kind of fold or cyst within the dance of the All; but while sex causes the boundaries of this intellectual enclosure to tremble, only madness or death will finally unloop it. Lawrence has a certain respect for intellect in its right place. But “sex in the head” is the attempt of the intellect to master sex, to contain it within an ideational simulacrum and make it subservient to the rational imperatives of knowledge and control. It’s an attempt to tame experience, to withdraw from the life of the passions, to turn sensation into a form of intellectual property. Where one ought to act and suffer, “sex in the head” provides a palliating substitute, a pharmakon. Where one ought to reflect on experience and rationally synthesize it, “sex in the head” produces disorientation and self-obsession. In his own way, Lawrence continues the crusade of the Victorians against “self-pollution”, overturning their obsession with “impurity” but retaining (and even radicalising) their horror of the devitalising effects of fantasy and solitary sexual amusement.

empty mirror
12-05-2009, 09:27 PM
In his own way, Lawrence continues the crusade of the Victorians against “self-pollution”, overturning their obsession with “impurity” but retaining (and even radicalising) their horror of the devitalising effects of fantasy and solitary sexual amusement.

i just realized "solitaire" is about "solitary sexual amusement":



and keeping to himself

He plays the game

Without her love

It always ends the same

While life goes on around him everywhere

Hes playing solitaire


...


There was a man

A lonely man

Who would command

The hand hes playing

i understand it is good for the prostate

poetix
12-05-2009, 09:34 PM
Surprisingly many things turn out to be about masturbation when you look at them closely.

nomadthethird
13-05-2009, 02:59 AM
While I sympathize with Lawrence's abhorrence of modernity and its valorization of abstraction above all else, I'm not sure that it makes sense to conceive of the metaphorical head as other-than-erogenous, somehow fragmented from the natural world that the loins inhabit. I would tend to consider the head a most vital part to the body's erotic whole, being its CPU, the unit into which all sensation, every bit of sensory information, flows to be processed, routed, and disseminated. (Even orgasms take shape in the brain, and culminate in a literal shutting down of function, a going-black and a near-total release second only to death…) Lawrence's failure to forestall his own lapse into a dualistic vitalism, to avoid what vitalists despise most, the notion that humans reside in the crevasse of a fundamental split in the natural order, was symptomatic of the contemporary modernist-humanist belief that homo sapiens were the centralmost being in the universe (destined to concur, subdue, and transcend nature via the powers of the mind)-- though Lawrence's own afflication with humanistic dualism apparently remained unfelt by him, in his being-thrown-into-modernity.

Here lies another point at which I diverge from Freud and (by extension) Lawrence: the notion of sublimation. For Freud all artwork, i.e. any abstractly human output, becomes just a placeholder for excess erotic energy that can find no other (physical, psychological) outlet. In this erotic universe, all desire is suspended by and rotates centripetally around phallic lack. This void becomes the central figure, hangs like our Sun gravitationally pulling everything toward it, in the Freudian developmental model of unfolding narrative selfhood, founded in the Ego, wherein the earliest events always overdetermine the remainder of the process. Each self, in order to become "civilized" performs on an Oedipal stage, in the theater of neurotic familial dependencies, for the benefit of an always absent but pressingly felt audience of others (society). All post-Oedipal erotic attachments can only be mere shadows of realer, more elemental relations-- the need for the body of the mother, the rival-father’s annoying presence, the sibling's absolute alterity. Eventually, children become parents and the play can be restaged. Generation after generation.

In The Rainbow, male characters are unable to erotically relate to their female counterparts in a non-neurotic fashion. Women are an unknowable abyss, both feared for their mysterious connection to the earth and revered for their sacral ties to the forces of nature. People on the most basic level of animal selfhood are mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters. These roles are the inexorable lot of humanity due to deep, dark, elemental forces that drive men (provide, protect, possess) and women (nurture, envelope, yield). Love itself is a moody, volatile set of dipolar intensities that as easily lowers lovers to blind rage and knawing jealousy as it elevates them to ecstasy and enlightenment. The destabilizing of the family and penetration of the rural landscape by technology, insofar as this tears people away from nature's elemental forces, is the ultimate horror for Lawrence. Without nature to ground them in their animal selfhood, his characters (especially the females) lose sight of their own happiness and satisfaction entirely.

Read as a reaction to Victorian hysteria about the body and its functions, and the enchroachment of industrialization and globalization on the natural order, Lawrence's work still resonates quite deeply today in the era of ecological crisis. He can take credit for very clearly perceiving the impending doom that the rise of unprecendently large and powerful machinic assemblages presaged. I wonder if it's perhaps very uncommon, the ability Lawrence had to diagnose the malady he himself suffered from deeply.

nomadthethird
13-05-2009, 03:08 AM
oops conquer

Mr. Tea
13-05-2009, 11:00 AM
Is it possible to localise sexuality, to assign it to a part that can be named? For Lawrence, “head” and “loins” are distinguishable organs: each names, metaphorically as may be, the place of a particular organic function. “Sex in the head” is the name for sexuality out of its place, for the domination of one function (sexuality, the index of the “natural” being) by another (intellectuality, the distinguishing mark of the “civilised” individual), and the reciprocal subversion of the dominating force by the dominated. Lawrence’s mystical vitalism certainly extends as far as a “cosmic” or global sexuality, a sexuality of nature in which man qua natural being participates. But man does not participate in this global sexuality wholly, or without mediation: part of him (“the head”) is separated, kept in reserve. “The loins” exist as a determinate region, a neighbourhood of sexuality, precisely to the extent that “the head” exists and does not itself wholly and immediately participate in the sexual dance of the All. Man is the animal that imagines he has sexual parts, that names and covers them and declares their names to be unspeakable.

I've not read Lawrence myself, but from the last few posts in this thread I'm entertaining the idea that the "D.H." stood for "Dick/Head".

nomadthethird
13-05-2009, 07:43 PM
how about Deep Homosexual-panic?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homosexual+panic

Mr. Tea
14-05-2009, 01:12 AM
how about Deep Homosexual-panic?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homosexual+panic

I considered being gay once, but I just didn't have it in me.

nomadthethird
14-05-2009, 07:07 AM
Gay I don't know if I could do, either. Being so rigid about things as to have a fixed orientation is hard work. And I'm lazy.

I'm so lazy that I can't be bothered to fix strange misspellings or typos.

DannyL
14-05-2009, 12:46 PM
What does "anti-genital tantras" mean? In simple terms, please.

mms
14-05-2009, 01:28 PM
if you're hearing voices and you have em under control, ie you're not going to harm anyone, or yourself then go to the doctor and ask for intervention with councelling such as cognitive behavioral therapy, if that doesnt work then maybe an anti psychotic.

if you think you may harm someone or yourself you need to go to the doctor again as you might need something a bit more serious.

where i work the atypical anti psychotic Clozaril has worked well with some of the schizophrenic ppl.
also cut down drink and drugs, exercise, get out a bit, all that good shit.

empty mirror
14-05-2009, 03:31 PM
the only sure method of psychic self defense is shutting your eyes, covering your ears with your paws and repeating "lalalalalalala".

Mr. Tea
14-05-2009, 04:07 PM
the only sure method of psychic self defense is shutting your eyes, covering your ears with your paws and repeating "lalalalalalala".

Circle of salt around you on the floor works wonders too, I heard.

vimothy
14-05-2009, 04:11 PM
Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos

Mr. Tea
14-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Circle of salt around you on the floor works wonders too, I heard.

Actually I may have just seen that on Buffy. :o

nomadthethird
14-05-2009, 06:32 PM
Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos

Don't worry, you can't catch teh gay. It's not contagious. Addiction is, though.

Mr. Tea
14-05-2009, 06:43 PM
Don't worry, you can't catch teh gay. It's not contagious.

This is true. Tom Cruise has been sucking dicks for years and he's still straight as a die.

nomadthethird
14-05-2009, 07:17 PM
What does "anti-genital tantras" mean? In simple terms, please.

It can mean a lot of things but for simplicity's sake let's say S&M.

rob_giri
08-07-2009, 08:49 PM
I haven't actually read any of the responses or posts in this thread out of instant impulse to give me personal answer. Apologies if I disregard anyone's words.

Having spent many years studying this and related issues from the most critical yet receptive angle that my sanity and conscience could allow, I will attempt to answer in a way that I hope you will find as no-bullshit and succinctly comprehensible as possible


Your question relates to how to respond to invasive external stimulus and how to guard oneself from being subverted by negative influences that result in what we might call a 'power loss' - a 'leakage' of sorts from your field of energy.

I will use metaphors gleaned from the system in which Armenian philosopher G.I Gurdjieff used - a system synthesized from early christian, sufi, kabbalistic and hindu sources which I believe to this day offers the most critical and holistic view of the function and operation of our humanity - and also the philosophies and practices of Antero Alli and the late Christopher S Hyatt

As a human being, you are made up of a series of interconnected 'centers' - physical, instinctive, emotional, intellectual etc - that work independant from eachother - at times (and most of the time) mechanically and as a result of external influences - things happening 'through' you and as a result of you being pushed around by accidental influences like a sleeping automoton - and at other times directed by your conscious Will - times in which you are more or less connected to yourself and 'Awake' to yourself in a state of self-remembrance.

As open-ended entities it is part of our living responsibility to regulate the inflow of influences from the world around us, as we make our way through a world of dynamic living forces. Some forces will be noticeably beneficial, others noticeably malignant - and others somewhere in between. Being Critical is what that is all about - open yourself to much and you will be swept up in Bullshit, close yourself off too much and you will die a slow death from the inside, resisting the force of life and the beautiful bounty it has to offer for your learning and enjoyment.

It is quite clear that as we live in such massively accelerated times of information-saturation, where there are countless sources of conflicting information about What is Real, anyone who isn't truly Thinking for Themselves is surely loosing their minds, and anyone who isn't Guarding their Energy and their sexual impulses is surely being swept up in the Hypermedia Wars where advertising is specifically designed to play on the contanimated desires (the Freudian Id) and the heavily conditioned value-constructs (the Freudian Superego) which if not tended to Consciously, fight to the death as our Conscious Mind (the Freudian Ego) buckles from confusion as to what is right and what is real.

In short, if you are worried about your Animal Machinery being manipulated then you must Reclaim it well and truly for yourself and learn to Feed It yourself with your own stimulus (physical commitment, emotional commitment, intellectual commitment) - if you fail to do this then You Will Be Fed by the society and culture around you and not at all on your own terms - and as a result you will remain a slave to the values and stereotypes of Others which do not at all reflect the true value of your individual Essence

You must reunite with your body and fulfill it's central need to be Felt Deeply, re-define for yourself issues of safety, status, sanity and social values so that you can Direct your body, emotions and mind with your Will and embody the Innate Autonomy that is your birthright.

Divorcing from the body will not lead you anywhere - however dis-identifying with your body, emotions and mind will be helpful so long as you are Fully Engaged with their sensations, feelings and thoughts and have the commitment to Be The Observer of it all as it happens and have the commitment to live it all out. The key to real freedom from external influence is becoming more Engaged with your Body, Heart and Mind so that you are the one calling the shots and not the malignant forces around you which will feed off you and keep you from realizing your Own Center of Gravity as it is.

Disidentification is more or less the key - techniques to deal with this problem is what Gurdjieff called 'Internal Seperation'. Internal Seperation means, whilst in contact with your sensations and feelings, learning to step back from the disconnected and abstracted cycles of your mind and instead Feel the Reality where the mind had Speculated with Symbols. Self-Observation is the mental method of learning to watch yourself enough to catch yourself in the act of Reacting and being Led by Impulse (as in your feeling of being sexually manipulated) and then Disidentifying from that Level of being and then partake in the emotional exercise of Self-Remembrance - Feeling yourself and your Conscience enough to remember What To Do and then Directing your energy enough to be in Control of it's manifestations. This is when you reclaim Power for yourself, akin to taming a wild beast and then directing it and using it as your vehicle to get through the world. Fail to Tame it and take responsibility for it and you will forever be swept up by the chaos of its impulses, like being eaten alive by the force of your Lust.

Most methods of 'Psychic Self-Defense' are complete rubbish because they fail to address the issue which is most important - that you are tending to yourself and your Own Internal Guidance and Innate Conscience enough to not need to rely on external influences and external sources of Light and Heat, and are instead realizing your central place as the Creator of your Present and Future Life as You Know It. You are Star waiting to be born - Go !


Enjoy

Ach!
09-07-2009, 02:38 AM
there are many people tampering with my conciousness. they keep trying to plant sexual thoughts in my head. to link their product or service with a state of sexual arousal. i find this invasive.

You mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzkgBLuyVqo)?

Thank you ChildOfTheBlogosphere.

zhao
09-07-2009, 07:14 AM
I will attempt to answer in a way that I hope you will find as no-bullshit and succinctly comprehensible as possible

hear hear!


You mean like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzkgBLuyVqo)?

a better example is this:

http://michael.mind-exchange.com/wp-content/2009/06/burger-king-seven-inch-blow-job-ad.jpg

rob_giri
09-07-2009, 10:35 AM
oh my fucking lord those ads are horrible.

As C.S Hyatt was fond of saying, Humans are apes and animals and as such their primary function in life is a very sophisticated form of Nesting, Digesting and Congesting. Advertising is nothing but manipulative methods of playing on the innate Oral-Anal-Sexual responses of humanity.

Lets hope that those with enough intelligence are learning to rely on their own internal sources of guidance so that our humanity can be saved from this dislocated and abstracted age of spiritual amnesia in which we now find ourselves in.

luka
09-07-2009, 10:38 AM
yeah like that.


that was a comprehensive answer CotB
thank you.

rob_giri
09-07-2009, 10:46 AM
no worries, i would appreciate any comments or criticisms.

Anyone know how i change my username? this name is so 2004..

john eden
09-07-2009, 10:56 AM
you could try asking a moderator to do it...

(i am no longer one)

luka
09-07-2009, 11:01 AM
i'll respond later this week then....

sufi
09-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Anyone know how i change my username? this name is so 2004..

what name would you prefer? (twitteringAdolescent is still available ;))

rob_giri
09-07-2009, 03:26 PM
perhaps not

Mr. Tea
09-07-2009, 04:08 PM
http://michael.mind-exchange.com/wp-content/2009/06/burger-king-seven-inch-blow-job-ad.jpg

Hahaha, oh my Jesus, that is terrible.

She's even got the blank-eyed stare of a sex doll.

Funny how this kind of nudge-nudge wink-winkery is par for the course in ads for 'up-market' products like scents and cosmetics, but looks so out of place on an advert for a fast-food chain. I guess the sheer blatantness of it is another thing, though.

nomadthethird
10-07-2009, 08:05 AM
Oh no, these days in US advertising people are in sexual relationships with just about everything... burgers, chocolate, SWIFFER MOPS

swears
10-07-2009, 08:45 PM
Advertising is great, semantics in its purest form.

rob_giri
11-07-2009, 05:19 PM
"helping the monkeys get what they want', as C.S Hyatt would say..