polyrhythms

in new zealand house is known as untz

Surgeon is a good choice for the Techno section (if not too obvious):


I was mixing this the other day, and the polyrhythm is really off-putting at first:

Fluxion --

this is excellent. NY refined polyrhythmic subtlety

Levon Vincent
http://www.residentadvisor.net/podcast-episode.aspx?id=158

Portable/Bodycode may interest you. Here's an article that analyses Wonky from the point of view of polyrhythms. If only the (few) examples of Wonky I know weren't so poor in terms of sound design ... Anyway, the most polyrhythmic form of western pop-music I'm familiar with (not very polyrhythmic though) is UK-Garage, which is probably why it's been my favourite so far. The most polyrhythmic forms of pop-music I'm familiar with are afro-latin (like salsa and samba).

zhao said:

going back and listening recently, i realized that some of the best Brinkmann productions are simply rigid teutonic interpretations of African percussion, as is, to various degrees, a LOT of the electronic dance music that i've EVER loved.

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This is an interesting statement. I also wonder if it's true (in the sense that I doubt the musicians you mention deliberately copied african rhythmic patterns). I think that it's more that it is in fact somewhat difficult not to make music polyrhythmic. Completely to avoid polyrhythms means that every significant repetitive element in music has to has to happen at a beat that's a power of 2. In such extrem that rarely happens, because it would be mind-numbing. In much of western pop-music the harmony changes regularly on the 4th beat of the bar for example. I think a lot of listerners might not consciously understand harmonic changes are part of rhythm. Melody is also part of rhythm, but there's not much melody in most pop-music.

four_five_one said:

Surgeon is a good choice for the Techno section (if not too obvious)

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so fucked.

3 Body No Problem said:

Portable/Bodycode may interest you. Here's an article that analyses Wonky from the point of view of polyrhythms. If only the (few) examples of Wonky I know weren't so poor in terms of sound design ... Anyway, the most polyrhythmic form of western pop-music I'm familiar with (not very polyrhythmic though) is UK-Garage, which is probably why it's been my favourite so far. The most polyrhythmic forms of pop-music I'm familiar with are afro-latin (like salsa and samba).

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When I was taught the term polyrhythmic at uni it was strictly used to describe multiple time signatures operating in the same bar length, e.g. the typical one in Western music being threes against two (e.g. triplets playing 12 beats against 8 beats in a bar or something). But judging from the kinds of examples Zhao's given he's really talking about different subdivisions of one time signature, just regrouping 16th-beats. And I guess that's the same deal with salsa and samba? They're both most easily counted in 4 4 with the bar subdivided into groups of 3 16th-beats, right? Even if not, they don't have e.g. one rhythm part playing someting that can be counted as, I dunno, 5 beats to the bar while another part is 4 beats, right?

Not sure that's at all clear. What I'm meaning is that I understood polyrhythmic music to mean music in which rhythms were basically operating in multiple tempos simultaneously - e.g. you might have a rhythm in 4 4 at 100 bpm, and another rhythm in 5 4 at 120 bpm, so the first beat of each bar is in sync but the patterns in between are freaky.

I can't think of any dance music that does this, beyond 3s and 2s (i.e. 12 8, e.g. schaffel), and those Mike Ink tracks circa Studio 1 which basically sound like he just cut loops of the same bar length with no attempt to make them in time and layered them up.

Soooooo... for you, does "polyrhythmic" just mean "more than one rhythm in a piece of music at the same time"? Surely ... all... music that involves more than one sound at a time could be described that way. Maybe not all, but in excess of 95%.

To be honest, my adolescent experiences made me really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really fucking tired of polyrhythms, or rather my high school friends' nu-hippie-drum-circle interpretation of them, generally djembes being played 3 against 4. In fact that's probably what made me latch onto unwieldy, unfunky techno as a teenager

But yeah, I think you mean syncopation rather than polyrhythms in your initial post..

With regard polyrhythmic techno, I think it'd be fitting to mention Wolfgang Voigt's M:I:5 project — rhythmically some of the most incredibly fucked-up techno from the 90s. I can't find any youtube clips but at some point in this video he plays some tracks an explains the concept/technique behind the project, which is quite interesting. Basically he'd make a drum loop, play it back, and play back a second copy 5 semitones higher or lower on his sampler, creating this weird wrong-but-right rhythm.

michael said:

When I was taught the term polyrhythmic at uni it was strictly used to describe multiple time signatures operating in the same bar length, e.g. the typical one in Western music being threes against two (e.g. triplets playing 12 beats against 8 beats in a bar or something). But judging from the kinds of examples Zhao's given he's really talking about different subdivisions of one time signature, just regrouping 16th-beats. And I guess that's the same deal with salsa and samba?
They're both most easily counted in 4 4 with the bar subdivided into groups of 3 16th-beats, right? Even if not, they don't have e.g. one rhythm part playing someting that can be counted as, I dunno, 5 beats to the bar while another part is 4 beats, right?

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Yes, that's right. Let's call "n bounded polyrhythm" any rhythm that unfolds only within n bars and then restarts (or stops). For example if you combine a beat that repeats over 5 units with one that repeats every 3 (3 against 5 polyrhythm), and you do it for 4 bars (assuming every bar has 4 time-units), you get something like this:

5....5....5....5

3..3..3..3..3..3

which then repeats. Then as far as I can see all popular music has only 2 or 4 bounded polyrhythm, including samba and salsa.

michael said:

What I'm meaning is that I understood polyrhythmic music to mean music in which rhythms were basically operating in multiple tempos simultaneously - e.g. you might have a rhythm in 4 4 at 100 bpm, and another rhythm in 5 4 at 120 bpm, so the first beat of each bar is in sync but the patterns in between are freaky.

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Yes, you don't really get that in popular music. At least not in the forground. For a start, it might be hard to dance to. Some tracks have some odd rhythm in the background, to give some additional nervousness. Quite popular for example to loop a soft hat or shaker that plays x..x..x..x..x..x..x..x..x..x..x.. and so on for a while.

michael said:

Soooooo... for you, does "polyrhythmic" just mean "more than one rhythm in a piece of music at the same time"? Surely ... all... music that involves more than one sound at a time could be described that way. Maybe not all, but in excess of 95%.

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The Wikipedia entry on Polyrhythm distinguishes polyrhythm from polymeter.

michael said:

Soooooo... for you, does "polyrhythmic" just mean "more than one rhythm in a piece of music at the same time"?

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yeah this is what i was thinking. by zhao's definition, basically all pop music right now is polyrhythmic



i was taught that it was the time signatures playing off each other thing at school as well

zhao said:

was talking to burnt friedman about this last night at the sublime frequencies show

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hob-nobbing with the great and the good, eh Zhao?


(is impressed.)

It's not really bongo heavy but the first track on the Boredoms Rebore 0 record (7) builds up layers of percussion and things playing different times concurrently. The overall effect is highly blissed out and ambient.

Not to do with polyrhythms as such but I like being surprised by stuff that isn't in 4/4 or 3/4. If it's done well it often makes me want to get up and dance just for the sheer novelty of moving to it.

Happened to hear 'English Roundabout' by XTC today and was really digging the 10/8 groove.

zhao said:

i can not STAND the UN-TZ-KA-TZ-UN-TZ-KA-TZ impoverished formula of most european and american productions

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yes. have you heard of ZAKEE? TITONTON? AYRO?

please do not slag off americans!!

zhao said:

a lot of Funky is more polyrhythmic than normal house

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perhps, but a haflway decent 1 or 2bar loop should not be extended to 6 minutes, then mixed with almost-identical tracks for 2hours (hello Marcus Nasty, and 98% of the rinse lineup)

haitian music on FM, and indian and arabic music on shortwave , all you really need

Might be worth pointing out quickly that Zhao is American.

how about polytonality?
playing in several keys at once