Chance or Aleatoric music

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evanbbb

Tumbling Dice
In simple terms, where to start? Musically and theoretically.

Currently I'm in the middle of developing a software application on multi-linear and chance storytelling. My research started in literature with Joyce, Hayles, Rosenblatt, Derrida, etc. but more and more I'm coming across bits of Cage's writing, pieces by Riley (In C), etc.. Not having a background in critical theory or music (just a good ole B.Sc) I'm wondering what musicians, pieces and texts I should look out for? I'm not focused on randomness or indeterminacy but music (to quote wikipedia) "that gives the performer certain liberties with regard to the sequencing and repetition of parts."

And while I'm here, if anyone has seen these concepts in theatre, that would be a bonus.:D

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Z

zhao

there are no accidents
the late James Tenney wrote many amazing pieces in which the interpretation is central within the perameters he set, Music in a Large Open Space is a good example (i was lucky enough to see a performance of it, which moved my non-avant classical inclined friend immensely), because i think the performers determine the duration of the notes, among other things...

video and sound from one performance (not the one i attended) here.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
this software you are developing, is it primarily for music or will it be able to be used in video and other applications? really interested in this area myself... brian eno said the best thing about computers are screen savers :D
 
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wonk_vitesse

radio eros
there's alot of 50s NYC that does this, feldmann , Wolff, and of course Stockhausen, you'll have to dig around to find it, it's difficult to pinpoint the exact kind of performer choice you're after, alot of freedoms around that era were also to do with inpretation e.g. graphic scores.

Needless to say the chasm seems to have resolved itself, there are composers & improvisers these days :rolleyes:
 
philblackpool

philblackpool

gamelanstep
zhao said:
the late James Tenney wrote many amazing pieces in which the interpretation is central within the perameters he set, Music in a Large Open Space is a good example (i was lucky enough to see a performance of it, which moved my non-avant classical inclined friend immensely), because i think the performers determine the duration of the notes, among other things...

video and sound from one performance (not the one i attended) here.
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James Tenney is GREAT. Dunno if it would fit into whats being spoken about here (I'm cr*p at music theory), but that dead early piece based around the Elvis record freaked me the hell out in my youth...Theres a....challenging...compilation of his stuff you can hold of fairly easily online I think :)
 
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evanbbb

Tumbling Dice
zhao said:
this software you are developing, is it primarily for music or will it be able to be used in video and other applications? really interested in this area myself... brian eno said the best thing about computers are screen savers :D
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It's video based with osc controls.

zhao said:
and comprovisers! :D (which is what this thread is about really...)
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Oh man, I just think I found the title for it. :D


Thanks, there are some good suggestions here I will start reading up on. Seems like Merce Cunningham also used some of the same concepts in his work in the 60s.
 
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oswellm

Member
I remember reading about David Cunningham's "Error Systems" from this album a fair while ago, although I still haven't got round to listening to them. I'm not sure if it's any way canonical w/regards aleatoric composition, but it may be of interest - the link includes some notes on it.
 
4linehaiku

4linehaiku

Repetitive
I read a number of papers on generating music via genetic algorithms last year. The individual results are completely random, so I'm not sure if it quite fits in with you're talking about, but one could add a lot of specific structure to the way the fitness is calculated and allow only "certain liberties with regard to the sequencing and repetition of parts" as you say.
if it's of any interest I could dig them out.
Actually one of them was specifically attempting to generate 'solos' from given backing scores which would seem a bit more relevant.
 
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evanbbb

Tumbling Dice
Awesome stuff coming up. I think a better description of the software I'm developing is in order. I can't go into specifics as I have a patent in the works but hopefully you get the jist.

I guess the initial idea came from looking at the modernist drive towards narrative fragmentation in 20th century literature. What writers such as Woolf and Joyce were doing with the linearity of space-time. Multiple perspectives, flashbacks, jumping around in time, hypertexuality, etc.

I started thinking about how this could be applied to modern filmmaking and music. Specifically, I looked at the link between VJing (which I find boring), storytelling and electronic music. What I found lacking is an acknowledgment of structure. Visuals tend to have nothing to do with what an artist or producer is trying to convey, least of all a story. What if said artist does most of their work through improvisation? How would they link what they are doing with a visual narrative? I'm not talking about generative visuals but preconceived story lines. Doing research I came across Riley's 'In C' which I've always loved but never really thought about structurally.

From wikipedia:

"In C consists of 53 short, numbered musical phrases, lasting from half a beat to 32 beats; each phrase may be repeated an arbitrary number of times. Each musician has control over which phrase he or she plays: players are encouraged to play the phrases starting at different times, even if they are playing the same phrase"

What I love, to semi-quote zhao, is the comprovisation of the work. The musicians are playing a written composition but they improvising how they play it. I find it a great piece of 'design' to start from.

Sooo... the software I've written takes a visual narrative (film, animation, etc) and maps it to an Ableton layout. The artist performs with the Ableton layout/set but the connected visual narrative is reconstructed for every deviation in the music. Every track, beat or note played out-of-order, resequences the storyline projected behind them. No vjing involved. The artist is allowed to stick to the story (just hit 'play') or create a new one every time they play. Think of it as a 'Choose Your Own Adventure Book' for beatnuts.

This thread was started to see what other works or schools of thought were out there that might be relevant. Anything you think I should look into. If anyone is interested, I'm set up with an artist (thanks mms ;)) who will be using the system in their live shows this September. Will post.

p.s. I have had two beers while writing this so excuse the grammer. :cool:
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
evanbbb said:
the software I've written takes a visual narrative (film, animation, etc) and maps it to an Ableton layout. The artist performs with the Ableton layout/set but the connected visual narrative is reconstructed for every deviation in the music. Every track, beat or note played out-of-order, resequences the storyline projected behind them. No vjing involved. The artist is allowed to stick to the story (just hit 'play') or create a new one every time they play. Think of it as a 'Choose Your Own Adventure Book' for beatnuts.
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sounds wicked. my idea along these lines have been more narrative and completely to do with chance: feature length DVD consisting of very short, say 5 to 30 second, scenes, which can only be played randomly. hope i can make it some day... would be so much fun, the dynamic of the cuts, the sound design... what kind of story would hold it together? somewhere between San Soleil and Resevoir Dogs?

Dunninger said:
Treatise by Cornelius Cardew
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yeah that is an amazing monolithic piece of music. but the only recording of it i know is the Hatology one, which people seem to think is utter shit. i adore it to no end though - can't imagine what a "proper" version would be like! which one do you recommend Dunninger?
 
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boomnoise

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evanbbb

Tumbling Dice
zhao said:
sounds wicked. my idea along these lines have been more narrative and completely to do with chance: feature length DVD consisting of very short, say 5 to 30 second, scenes, which can only be played randomly.
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What I have consists of scenes 3 to 20 secs long. Some are loopable and only move on when triggered by ableton. Others are non-loopable and structured according to the ableton layout.
 
D

Dunninger

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zhao said:
yeah that is an amazing monolithic piece of music. but the only recording of it i know is the Hatology one, which people seem to think is utter shit. i adore it to no end though - can't imagine what a "proper" version would be like! which one do you recommend Dunninger?
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The hatology one is the only recording I know too, which I found ok. I didn't want to come across like an expert on this, to be honest Treatise is more something that I know of but not something I'd claim to know in depth.
 
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Dunninger

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evanbbb said:
What I have consists of scenes 3 to 20 secs long. Some are loopable and only move on when triggered by ableton. Others are non-loopable and structured according to the ableton layout.
Click to expand...

I've been playing with ideas in that direction too, but so far only on a basic idea level involving sound generators that trigger/parameterize each other when certain events occur (sonically or algorithmically) + possible musician interaction. I imagine this a sort of finite state machine, which could be derived from an existing narrative like a film if you map scenes to states. So I'd love to see the outcome of your project. :D
 
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