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luka
10-09-2009, 06:41 AM
not me
but some of you

luka
10-09-2009, 06:47 AM
i know for a fact that eden and martin used to strip off and dance naked under moonlight to invoke the gods.

luka
10-09-2009, 06:47 AM
while grevious angel pounded out a dionysian rhythm on the bongos, invoking the celebrants to ever greater hieghts of frenzy

luka
10-09-2009, 07:08 AM
writing for me is a magic(k)al practice
in the interests of full disclosure
im not asking anyone to offer themselve up for ridicule.

john eden
10-09-2009, 07:24 AM
writing and magick:

http://www.archive.org/download/JohnEden-ApLecture/090208_APJohnEden.MP3

craner
10-09-2009, 11:12 AM
I knew before I even looked at this thread that you'd started it.

Mr. Tea
10-09-2009, 12:18 PM
I knew before I even looked at this thread that you'd started it.

Now THAT'S magic(k)!

Edit: they're talking about Derren Brown in the TV thread. I reckon that man is a charlatan, viz. a telepath masquerading as a very astute psychologist.

luka
10-09-2009, 12:21 PM
its not fair, you lot are too shy to tell me about conjuring demons

vimothy
10-09-2009, 12:32 PM
I like a bit of magic. Used to anyway.

Mr. Tea
10-09-2009, 12:54 PM
I like a bit of magic...

:The Gathering?

john eden
10-09-2009, 01:29 PM
its not fair, you lot are too shy to tell me about conjuring demons

I've said all you need to know in that mp3

luka
10-09-2009, 01:59 PM
i listened to it. it was about blogging.

nomadthethird
10-09-2009, 02:51 PM
The Holy Church of Sexmagick sounds like more fun than it is. When I first heard of it I thought wow this is awesome. Then I realized it's just faerie worship + a bunch of people who like to wear body paint while they fuck.

vimothy
10-09-2009, 03:26 PM
And eat a lot of cum.

john eden
10-09-2009, 04:20 PM
i listened to it. it was about blogging.

to know to will to dare and to keep silent luka...

:)

mistersloane
10-09-2009, 04:40 PM
I hate white magicians, they're fools. All magic is black magic.

grizzleb
10-09-2009, 04:46 PM
I watched a Grant Morrison speech on disinfo about 4 years ago and thought it was amazing, messed about with the sigil magick he talked about and it totally worked (if you can call it that). I couldn't say I believe in it but fuck knows what went on there...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=3594816

Watch that, he's pretty funny even if he talks a bit of nonsense. Talks alot of sense too.

vimothy
10-09-2009, 05:16 PM
Grant Morrison is a dude.

nomadthethird
10-09-2009, 05:49 PM
I hate white magicians, they're fools. All magic is black magic.

Yeah, I was going to say, the Satanistic element of Sexmagick seems infinitely cooler and more interesting than the other part, which is just like Wicca ++.

baboon2004
10-09-2009, 06:08 PM
what exactly did derren brown do last night? I was reading through comments in the Guardian, but got bored before I could figure out exactly what the lottery trick was (obv he guessed the numbers that would come up, but what was the set-up?).

paolo
10-09-2009, 06:34 PM
He was standing in a studio with a telly showing the lottery draw live and some balls beside him turned so that you couldn't see the numbers. Apparently he'd been obsessing over the lottery for a year or so and worked out how to predict it. When the numbers were drawn on the lottery he turned his balls round (steady now) and they had the same numbers as the actual lottery draw. I didn't actually see this bit as I was taking a piss but my brother said that's what happened

paolo
10-09-2009, 06:38 PM
I'm a wee bit sceptical as he only showed the numbers he'd picked after the lottery was drawn - surely if he'd got them right he could have shown us just before?

nomadthethird
10-09-2009, 06:40 PM
Just a wee bit...

Does he get paid for this? Because if he does, I want to be a magician. I've got a trick, too:

I can predict how the DOW will close for the day. 10 minutes after it closes.

DannyL
10-09-2009, 07:54 PM
its not fair, you lot are too shy to tell me about conjuring demons

How about this?

http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/sp_goetiarep.html

DannyL
10-09-2009, 07:55 PM
Are you in London Luka? You should go to Treadwells, it is aces.

http://www.treadwells-london.com/lectures.asp

I've given a couple of talks there in the past.

mms
10-09-2009, 08:01 PM
that reminds me i just got this thru the post, finally got post at last, its been about 10 days


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http://liminalnation.org/

good read.

DannyL
10-09-2009, 08:05 PM
writing for me is a magic(k)al practice
in the interests of full disclosure
im not asking anyone to offer themselve up for ridicule.

Magic (or magick) is what you'd call a floating signifier in that what it means will vary vastly depending on who is speaking. For those who are really into it, the word seems to become a repository for all that is positive and numinous in their lives.

Since I've got back into record collecting I've been struck by parallels between this and the UK occult scene. They are both funny little scenes, that might appear bizarre to outsiders full of egotists, eccentrics and nerds (the latter two often a good thing IMO). They can also both offer up the most amazing transformative moments - if you're lucky. :p

(Not so sure about record collecting there - in the broadest sense, music and all you can do with it).

martin
10-09-2009, 08:19 PM
I was first taught Magick in the infant's, by a 6-yr old called Daniella - who was from some foreign clime and had a scar down one cheek. Here's a simple spell she showed us - when rainclouds gather, form a posse / coven of 3-4, and repeatedly chant RAIN RAIN GO AWAY / COME AGAIN ANOTHER DAY. This ALWAYS works - the rain will clear up in 5 minutes. But be aware there's a karmic payback - I can't count the number of times I was out in a t-shirt or light jacket, and it suddenly started to bucket down from nowhere. This is known as 'raincloud retaliation', and it even happens to dub witchdoctors, so deal with it.

The best place to do magick in London is on the Underground system - don't bother hanging round woods or graveyards or any of that crap. Stockwell to Brixton on the Victoria Line is a potent place to do it. I've conducted experiments with 'text magick', using SMS and SIM cards, but the results proved inconclusive.

Here's an old trick for gatecrashing your subconscious - get a pen and paper, and scribble down a couple of paragraphs while counting, out loud, from 100 down to 1.

The only thing that pisses me off about the whole magick scene is nobody can tell you how to win on the horses. Fuck Azathoth, I want the dosh.

DannyL
10-09-2009, 08:22 PM
Writing is totally magical as well. For lots of magicians I know, writing is a big part of their practice. (See Alan Moore and Grant Morrison also). There are various Gods of writing and speech who tend to occupy central roles in pantheons, Crowley was a committed poet and diarist and saw the diary as an essential magical practice. I think it was part of his on the grand scale - crafting this enduring compeeling image that has inspired a thousand bedroom satanists.

DannyL
10-09-2009, 08:25 PM
The only thing that pisses me off about the whole magick scene is nobody can tell you how to win on the horses. Fuck Azathoth, I want the dosh.

This is probably 'cos most of 'em are sensitive souls who've never been inside the emotional slaughterhouse that is a bookies.It's a cultural background thing. There's loads of weird stuff in Hoodoo (American folk magic) about winning at the horses, dice etc.

Mr. Tea
10-09-2009, 09:15 PM
Holy Church of Sexmagick[, Batman!]

sounds like one of Robin's more excitable utterances.

zhao
11-09-2009, 08:21 AM
I hate white magicians, they're fools. All magic is black magic.

the christian church would agree with this.

but the problem with black magic and satanism, which i dabbled with in my teenage metal years, is that it just ends up reinforcing the bullshit dualism of christianity.

martin
11-09-2009, 09:18 AM
Ask any evangelical Christian why God let the Holocaust happen, and they'll go to great pains to explain how God created free will, and how man must ultimately account for his own actions. Life itself is but a trial, and man must decide which path he chooses - but rest assured, the buck for the horrors of Belsen and Treblinka will stop somewhere, come judgement day. To argue otherwise is to request God to create a species of pre-programmed clones, unable to make decisions for themselves.

Then, in the next breath, they blame the world's ills on the Devil! Very biased, if you ask me.

mistersloane
11-09-2009, 09:42 AM
the christian church would agree with this.

but the problem with black magic and satanism, which i dabbled with in my teenage metal years, is that it just ends up reinforcing the bullshit dualism of christianity.

Ah it's less that, it's the fucking "myeh, my magic is only to do things that are positive in the world, I use positive energy' fucking brigade. Oh really, do you? How do you do that exactly? You're that fucking good that you know exactly what's gonna happen, do you?

Aside from the fact that you have to go through the dark to get to the light anyway. It's such a fucking arrogant position to take. If you put all the witches in all the world in one room, they couldn't boil a kettle.

baboon2004
11-09-2009, 09:57 AM
I'm a wee bit sceptical as he only showed the numbers he'd picked after the lottery was drawn - surely if he'd got them right he could have shown us just before?

I like Derren Brown (modern TV sorely lacks brilliant showmen, and he's certainly one of those), but the trick is therefore transformed into not "How the hell did he predict that??" into "How did he get the numbers onto those balls/How did he get those particular balls into place in time?" Which is infinitely more prosaic, and less of a headfuck than the age-old saw/box trick.

massrock
11-09-2009, 01:45 PM
I like how a thread about magick has got on to Derren Brown. He has written about NLP I think.

low band
11-09-2009, 03:21 PM
Check out the Grimoires at http://theoccult.bz/

mistersloane
11-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Check out the Grimoires at http://theoccult.bz/

you need to login/password, so no, can't unfortunately

Mr. Tea
11-09-2009, 05:16 PM
One of my favourite weird English language things is the shared etymology of 'glamour', 'grammar' and 'grimoire'. The connection between magic and the power of spoken and written words is deep and very ancient - think about putting a 'spell' on someone, or about what we mean when we call something 'en-chant-ing'.

baboon2004
11-09-2009, 05:28 PM
you need to login/password, so no, can't unfortunately

this is where you need the power of...............

MAGICK!!!

Mr. Tea
11-09-2009, 05:34 PM
this is where you need the power of...............

MAGICK!!!

Yeah, I was gonna say, can't you just scry it or something? :cool:

massrock
11-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Oh for scrying out loud.

Mr. Tea
11-09-2009, 05:43 PM
Oh for scrying out loud.

Well that's charming, I must say!

baboon2004
11-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Can't you lot conjure up anything else but weak puns?

Mr. Tea
11-09-2009, 05:48 PM
Well it's either this or just aimlessly Pottering about the house...

baboon2004
11-09-2009, 05:52 PM
Ouija just go and potter?!

Mr. Tea
11-09-2009, 05:55 PM
What, just rune away from a thread like this?

mms
11-09-2009, 06:41 PM
fuck the temple of pychick youth, it's all about thee temple ov lenny kravitz

Mr. Tea
11-09-2009, 06:47 PM
thee temple ov lenny kravitz

AKA Lenny Kravitz's body, obvs.

mms
11-09-2009, 06:51 PM
AKA Lenny Kravitz's body, obvs.

incorporating the divine order of our lady Whitney Houston and the holy Tabernacle of Debbie Gibson.

mistersloane
11-09-2009, 06:59 PM
incorporating the divine order of our lady Whitney Houston and the holy Tabernacle of Debbie Gibson.

and the first psychedelic church of our lord Michael

mms
11-09-2009, 07:44 PM
and the first psychedelic church of our lord Michael

nu kids ov thee uncarved block

mms
11-09-2009, 07:52 PM
the path of INXS leads to the Palace of Wisdom.

nomadthethird
11-09-2009, 07:59 PM
and the first psychedelic church of our lord Michael

Now that is a service I'd wake up at 10:00am on a Sunday for...

mistersloane
11-09-2009, 09:09 PM
nu kids ov thee uncarved block

that made me laugh really hard, from somewhere dark in my belly I didn't know existed

mistersloane
11-09-2009, 09:12 PM
Now that is a service I'd wake up at 10:00am on a Sunday for...

Oh man that's what I did for my masters presentation beginning! Announced it as the inaugural meeting of the First Psychedelic Church of Michael Jackson and had a minute of really, really fast images of him painted by his fans flashing past before I started on my work. I got a first lol. What a fucking joke.

nomadthethird
12-09-2009, 12:40 AM
Oh man that's what I did for my masters presentation beginning! Announced it as the inaugural meeting of the First Psychedelic Church of Michael Jackson and had a minute of really, really fast images of him painted by his fans flashing past before I started on my work. I got a first lol. What a fucking joke.

Roffle...oh god, that's good, I don't think I can beat that.

I did go to my symbolic logic final tripping in undergrad, because I smoked this cigarette that someone had dipped and left in room and I didn't realize...

low band
12-09-2009, 01:10 AM
you need to login/password, so no, can't unfortunately

just sign up, no blood involved, yet.

mistersloane
12-09-2009, 01:22 AM
just sign up, no blood involved, yet.

are they gonna eat my poo tho

Mr. Tea
12-09-2009, 06:09 PM
I can't imagine anyone not wanting to eat mistersloane's poo.

Martin Dust
12-09-2009, 09:25 PM
i know for a fact that eden and martin used to strip off and dance naked under moonlight to invoke the gods.

We did indeed, great events and I still work the neither-neither states.

low band
13-09-2009, 01:37 AM
are they gonna eat my poo tho

If you fail to flush it significantly from your bowel, I suppose there is always a chance.

mistersloane
13-09-2009, 06:18 AM
If you fail to flush it significantly from your bowel, I suppose there is always a chance.

You're the Enema-Thelema.

DannyL
13-09-2009, 04:38 PM
There is a potentially interesting thread here, slowly getting buried under references to shit and bad puns.

sufi
13-09-2009, 10:06 PM
is this what you're looking for perhaps?
http://rapidshare-mp3s.blogspot.com/2008/08/ts-eliot-p0etry-in-his-own-voice-waste.html T.S. Eliot - P0etry in his Own Voice (the Waste Land and other poems)

mistersloane
13-09-2009, 10:50 PM
There is a potentially interesting thread here, slowly getting buried under references to shit and bad puns.

Why did you first start practising, if you do, Danny?

luka
14-09-2009, 07:42 AM
yeah it could be a good thread its true. i can't beleive in magic to be honest.
it seems to me like a metaphor which takes you one step further away from what is really happening. why paste a god/demon onto it? i mean, that just doesn't happen for me. i could have the experience but there wouldn't be that narrative. i would just receive the informaiton. it would come out my mouth and i wouln't posit a god/demon/alien as the cause.
it wouldn't occur to me. maybe a magically deficient. and i admit i couldn't bring myself to wave swords and wands about or paint pentagrams on the floor. i can access my subconscious just by writing or talking. i taught myself to do it as a teenager.
i mean, i don't have an imagination, and im not visual, ive never really had any pictures in my head whatsoever. ive taken various hallucinegnes and i've never hallucinated. a few slight distoritions, light trails, but thats it. nothing. just a sense of lucidity, and an increased verbal facility and lots of nice bodily feelings. euphoria etc. everything to me is sensation. it doesn't get more elborate than that. information comes as sensation and i can translate it into language, so although i recognise the experiences, i don't use the same mataphors. similarly synchronicity, precognition, telepathy etc happen al the time, every day, albeit usualyl in fairly mundane ways and i dunno, its just how the world works. i dont need to cast runes for it to happen and i dont get suspirsed or excited when it does happen. it always did and it always will. all the magic people ive read with the exception of crowley who is at least amusing, dont seem to be that bright. the chaos magic people i looked at a bit, and they're a bit dim. the books are horrible.
all these things wil happen with or without the magical ritual. this is the crux of it. if you dream something well it will come true.

Dial
14-09-2009, 07:59 AM
For those interested in the spirit practice edge of magick - that does include the 'get me the shit I want aspect' - Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford are excellent. They do a great combination of Chaos magick, esoteric Crowley and Mahasi Sayadaw (neo-Burmese) style buddhism.

You'll find them here:

http://www.thebaptistshead.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

A nice interview with Alan here. Podcast, and transcript.

http://personallifemedia.com/podcasts/236-buddhist-geeks/episodes/46038-great-work-western

It looks like the magick lads and the Buddhists are starting to seriously hang out.

luka
14-09-2009, 08:36 AM
This is B.S. Your 'one-off' is a hilarious glimpse into your masturbatory existence. You have not even crossed your fingers in the hopes of success yet. Anyone who has will see this...renunciation & silence is your best bet. Although not of the Grade 8 = 3 now, my Motto was M.Th. = MELANOThEOS ThANATOS = 1111, & my Word was ThANATOS. It still is the Truest Word anyone can offer to those below--DEATH. For they resist Change, which is Death. I just wish to counter the confusion you emit here, nothing more. I will not be checking back. Btw, I found Benjamin Rowe's little account genuinely fascinating.
Posted by MCXI, on 07/11/2008 at 04:39

I considered deleting this bile but I think it's a good example of a dabbler losing his marbles (which, incidentally, appears to have occured after our last encounter. Some people never learn, do they?).

Pay attention dick head: I do not suffer fools gladly nor do I turn the other cheek. Come on my site again and you'll be on the wrong end of some real magick.
Posted by Alan, on 07/11/2008 at 08:39

:
Pay attention dick head: I do not suffer fools gladly nor do I turn the other cheek. Come on my site again and you'll be on the wrong end of some real magick.

93! Alan,

This proves that you are not master of thy self and that you didn't cross abyss.Remember brother Intolerance is evidence of IMPOTENCE

Greets from Adriatic Sea!

93.93/93
Helel
Posted by Helel, on 09/09/2008 at 09:48

DannyL
14-09-2009, 09:26 AM
That clash of the egos above is a bit vomit inducing. BBS Moderation through cursing! I've never read anything by that dude that spoke to me. Met him in the pub a couple of times though. It's that sort of exchange that totally turned me off the whole "scene".

Sloane: I started practising bit and pieces when I was about 18, I think, after corresponding with someone I met through TOPY. Tbh, I think I went down a lot of dead ends, and wasted a lot of energy trying to make myself believe stuff - kind of think that's par for the course though (the whole "rigid discipline" thing that one can pick up off of Crowley is a good example of that, can be really horrible and toxic at it's worst). But then - you tap into something that's really amazing. For me, that's consistently been dreams, meditation and the I Ching. I've also got a big interest in Indian culture and Tantra specifically and part of the "magical process" for me is learning about these traditions and putting the pieces together. One of the things that tantra did for me, was get me interested in my body and my senses - encouraged me to get fit, take up martial arts etc. Martial arts is the classic nerd's route to some sort of physical competence, but it's still great.

I know what you mean, Luka, about the literal existence of Gods, Demons etc. but I think there's other ways of approaching that particular conumdrum. Not seeing them as kind of Marvel superheros hanging out in another dimension, but more as a way of seeing and processing the events of your life and your own thoughts and feelings. I feel the same about Christianity - the literal existence of a Biblical type God is obviously absurd, but i don't think this is what is going on in people's heads who're Christians. I'm interested in how and why they believe whatever-it-is, and what it does for them. Not that concerned with the literal truth of it. Seems like a bit of a blind alley to me.

DannyL
14-09-2009, 09:27 AM
Oh, this is my mate Steve's blog. Interesting combination of voodoo and record obsession.

http://cleanlivingindifficultcircumstances.blogspot.com/

DannyL
14-09-2009, 09:37 AM
Really liked your post Luka, btw. Be interested to hear if most people believe in synchroncity and general strangeness etc or do you take a more hard edged view of the world and think this is all projecting patterns into chaos? I'm more interested in hearing what other people think than wibbling on myself tbh.

Normal people who haven't got a massive hard on about being MAGICIANS are more interesting anyway. They really are some tiresome fucking people.

mistersloane
14-09-2009, 09:50 AM
Oh, this is my mate Steve's blog. Interesting combination of voodoo and record obsession.

http://cleanlivingindifficultcircumstances.blogspot.com/

Good blog, is that Steve Grasso?

I used to hang around alot of the 'occult' circles and stuff but just got bored. I remember when I was a young teenager talking to my mum about the Tarot and she said 'oh sweetie, you can go down that route if you want but it's an awful waste of time' and into my thirties - and also, alongside the time when I really started making music and videos, practising my own work, so to speak - I found that the space that used to be occupied by, um, sideways thinking maybe, got filled up with thinking about 'art' instead.

I don't think it's projecting patterns into chaos, it really happens but seeing into it is a product of borderline schizophrenia I think. Not to say that I don't think that most people are borderline anyway, but I think it's more a product of brain function than being told anything by the great cosmos. Although it's fun to listen to what the great cosmos has to say, it's kinda like watching telly most of the time.

DannyL
14-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Yeah, that's Steve.

I still find the I Ching. Has a way of encapsulating situations and pointing the way forward that works for me.

More later.

mms
14-09-2009, 10:35 AM
Good blog, is that Steve Grasso?

I used to hang around alot of the 'occult' circles and stuff but just got bored. I remember when I was a young teenager talking to my mum about the Tarot and she said 'oh sweetie, you can go down that route if you want but it's an awful waste of time' and into my thirties - and also, alongside the time when I really started making music and videos, practising my own work, so to speak - I found that the space that used to be occupied by, um, sideways thinking maybe, got filled up with thinking about 'art' instead.

I don't think it's projecting patterns into chaos, it really happens but seeing into it is a product of borderline schizophrenia I think. Not to say that I don't think that most people are borderline anyway, but I think it's more a product of brain function than being told anything by the great cosmos. Although it's fun to listen to what the great cosmos has to say, it's kinda like watching telly most of the time.

aren't all these things about art in a sense anyway, occupying autonomous territories, the people who give a shit about this stuf aren't the twats who hardman it up on a cosmic level but the scholars artist creators and fearless individuals.

Re: schizophrenia, i don't think the purpose of magic is ultra dark cleansing, violence and self harm, and often that seems to be the route that confuses schizophrenia and magic, where voices are unwanted, harmful dangerous, ie all the things that make up someone caught in some fucking horrible psychosis, and calling that channeling or magick or whatever, i though the key thing was for the person channeling to be in charge.

I'm genuinley interested in the cultural proliferation of magick and magickal ideas and experiences etc but so many magick people are massive stereotypes, the all like 3 bands, dress in black are moody, brutally closed minded etc...give i a break

would recommend this actually
http://dreamflesh.com/
it's a good read.

mistersloane
14-09-2009, 11:47 AM
Re: schizophrenia, i don't think the purpose of magic is ultra dark cleansing, violence and self harm, and often that seems to be the route that confuses schizophrenia and magic, where voices are unwanted, harmful dangerous, ie all the things that make up someone caught in some fucking horrible psychosis, and calling that channeling or magick or whatever, i though the key thing was for the person channeling to be in charge.


Yeah I meant less schizophrenia as pathology and more as neurological symptom - high levels of dopamine are found in people exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia, produced in the mesolimbic part of the brain, which also has to do with feelings of reward and motivation; I think alot of ritual and magical practise is about stimulating that place (this will happen, etc), thus the area of the brain stimulated is that area in both schizophrenia and magic, regardless of who's in control. Similarly with epileptic seizures and visions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that - Deleuze, schizophrenia being a normative state in this system etc - I just think that that's what's going on, and it's not much deeper than that.

mms
14-09-2009, 12:26 PM
Yeah I meant less schizophrenia as pathology and more as neurological symptom - high levels of dopamine are found in people exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia, produced in the mesolimbic part of the brain, which also has to do with feelings of reward and motivation; I think alot of ritual and magical practise is about stimulating that place (this will happen, etc), thus the area of the brain stimulated is that area in both schizophrenia and magic, regardless of who's in control. Similarly with epileptic seizures and visions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that - Deleuze, schizophrenia being a normative state in this system etc - I just think that that's what's going on, and it's not much deeper than that.

ok, yes thats interesting on the level of ritual.

low band
14-09-2009, 12:35 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with that - Deleuze, schizophrenia being a normative state in this system etc - I just think that that's what's going on, and it's not much deeper than that.

The latest Fulgur release, Legion 49 (http://www.fulgur.co.uk/books/uk/legion-49/) by Barry William Hale opens with a quote by Deleuze, a first in a book about beelzebub I would of thought.

And adding to the links, Joel Biroco's (www.biroco.com) site is always worth a visit, although sadly his blog appears to have ceased.

nochexxx
14-09-2009, 01:57 PM
i don't know anything about magic but anything that inverts science seems healthy to me. i like this idea of reducing sigils, it's the same as music producing. i must read up on this.

nomadthethird
14-09-2009, 02:15 PM
Yeah I meant less schizophrenia as pathology and more as neurological symptom - high levels of dopamine are found in people exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia, produced in the mesolimbic part of the brain, which also has to do with feelings of reward and motivation; I think alot of ritual and magical practise is about stimulating that place (this will happen, etc), thus the area of the brain stimulated is that area in both schizophrenia and magic, regardless of who's in control. Similarly with epileptic seizures and visions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that - Deleuze, schizophrenia being a normative state in this system etc - I just think that that's what's going on, and it's not much deeper than that.

This is an interesting connection to make...

Mr. Tea
14-09-2009, 03:28 PM
i don't know anything about magic but anything that inverts science seems healthy to me.

How do you 'invert' science, exactly?

I see magic as proto-science: you do something -> something you don't quite understand happens -> some end result occurs. Chemistry and astronomy were ultimately born of alchemy and astrology, after all, and the study of anatomy may even begun with haruspicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspicy).

nochexxx
14-09-2009, 05:40 PM
How do you 'invert' science, exactly?

I see magic as proto-science: you do something -> something you don't quite understand happens -> some end result occurs. Chemistry and astronomy were ultimately born of alchemy and astrology, after all, and the study of anatomy may even begun with haruspicy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspicy).


correct me if im wrong but the little information i've discerned from reading about sigil magick is that it works only once the laws of what the status quo considers natural conduct is bypassed. sigils work outside of ‘science’, or at least the dogmatic version we are led to believe.

Depending on your vantage point we’ve encountered the inevitable, a schism between the arts and science.

massrock
14-09-2009, 07:48 PM
correct me if im wrong but the little information i've discerned from reading about sigil magick is that it works only once the laws of what the status quo considers natural conduct is bypassed. sigils work outside of ‘science’, or at least the dogmatic version we are led to believe.
Nah, not really. Generally magick isn't too concerned with how it works I would say. You can have your theories and things but it doesn't really matter. Some theories even purport to be scientific ;)

The idea with things like sigil magick is that you need to get your usual 'desire' and 'doubt' and rationalisations (how does it work?) and equivocations out of the way for the act of magick to be effective in the way you want it to be. So sigil magick is one way of doing that in that you are trying to hide the meaning of the sigil from your conscious mind.

Martin Dust
14-09-2009, 08:16 PM
I still use sigils and enjoy working in a neither- neither state but so much rubbish has been written about magick and always will be, it's hard to find your way. You could make a leaflet out of the good stuff that's for sure.

I'm also a fan a belief systems, in the past I've worshiped a gnome and played dice man with one of those magic fishes you get in xmas crackers - the biggest lesson out of all that was you can build a belief system out of anything if you try hard enough.

massrock
14-09-2009, 08:20 PM
BBS Moderation through cursing!
I think it's probably best to nip that kind of thing in the bud, seemed fair enough to me. You don't want a fairly open web2.0 site dealing with 'occult' topics being overrun with too much disruptive mentalism. Generally I like the approach those guys seem to have.

DannyL
14-09-2009, 08:22 PM
I still use sigils and enjoy working in a neither- neither state but so much rubbish has been written about magick and always will be, it's hard to find your way. You could make a leaflet out of the good stuff that's for sure.

I'm also a fan a belief systems, in the past I've worshiped a gnome and played dice man with one of those magic fishes you get in xmas crackers - the biggest lesson out of all that was you can build a belief system out of anything if you try hard enough.

I tend to read academic books now. Less egotism and madness, from people who know how to write and structure an argument.

One recent book I did like though - Barry Patterson's The Art of Conversation with the Genius Loci. Great little book.

Martin Dust
14-09-2009, 08:30 PM
I tend to read academic books now. Less egotism and madness, from people who know how to write and structure an argument.

One recent book I did like though - Barry Patterson's The Art of Conversation with the Genius Loci. Great little book.

I don't think I've picked up a book on magick in years, Ken is more a fan but I got sick of reading the same thing over and over in a more "new age" cover every single time.

Mr. Tea
14-09-2009, 08:37 PM
correct me if im wrong but the little information i've discerned from reading about sigil magick is that it works only once the laws of what the status quo considers natural conduct is bypassed.

I couldn't possibly correct you because I have no idea what sigil magick is. But it sounds like a fairly standard po-mo rejection of anything approved of by The Man/The System/The Establishment.

DannyL
14-09-2009, 08:43 PM
I don't think I've picked up a book on magick in years, Ken is more a fan but I got sick of reading the same thing over and over in a more "new age" cover every single time.

I very rarely buy books on the occult. I did buy Dave Lee's new one earlier this year which I liked about 90% of. Pretty original in most parts. Most of the time though, I'd rather read something academic if I'm going to read at all.

DannyL
14-09-2009, 08:44 PM
I couldn't possibly correct you because I have no idea what sigil magick is. But it sounds like a fairly standard po-mo rejection of anything approved of by The Man/The System/The Establishment.

It is not!

Mr. Tea
14-09-2009, 08:57 PM
It is not!

Fair enough, I'm just saying that's what it sounded like from nochexx's description.

Martin Dust
14-09-2009, 09:56 PM
I very rarely buy books on the occult. I did buy Dave Lee's new one earlier this year which I liked about 90% of. Pretty original in most parts. Most of the time though, I'd rather read something academic if I'm going to read at all.

Didn't even know Dave had a new book out, I've got a lot of time for Dave, although I guess he's still doing the I.O.T thing, not for me really.

woops
14-09-2009, 11:34 PM
I think it's probably best to nip that kind of thing in the bud, seemed fair enough to me. You don't want a fairly open web2.0 site dealing with 'occult' topics being overrun with too much disruptive mentalism. Generally I like the approach those guys seem to have.

I didn't exactly lol when I clicked the link to the Grant Morrsion video earlier in this thread, and the first comment on the video was 'I've met Grant astrally and merked him'.

mistersloane
15-09-2009, 12:25 AM
Didn't even know Dave had a new book out, I've got a lot of time for Dave, although I guess he's still doing the I.O.T thing, not for me really.

What's wrong with the I.O.T* thing Martin?

* Illuminates of Thanateros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminates_of_Thanateros

Martin Dust
15-09-2009, 09:26 AM
What's wrong with the I.O.T* thing Martin?

* Illuminates of Thanateros
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminates_of_Thanateros

I've never really been into traditional magickal orders, the IOT had a chance to be different but as soon as Peter Carroll took over he aligned it with the OTO and for me it was over the day he did that. I also had a problem with some of the right wing BS going on in the IOT as well.

I guess it suits some people and I've be invited to join many an order, but I really never wanted to join anything. TOPY was more free form, into ideas and being creative, so I went with that but as soon as that became just the same people doing the work we closed it down.

DannyL
15-09-2009, 01:02 PM
I benefited from joining a group to learn stuff and make connections with new people who I wouldn't otherwise meet. I benefited from this hugely and still do in fact The whole pseudo-masonic organisation and idea of grades of attainment are a massive turn off for me (this is why I don't like Alan Chapman's stuff - mentioned above). It strikes me as being one of those ideas that seems to have passed down from the 19th Century without any intervening thought, to coin a phrase.

I think the best groups are ones that arise out of friendships, and exist on an informal basis. Then there's no big instituion to defend or "protect". Hard to have outside a big city though.

Martin Dust
15-09-2009, 01:49 PM
I think the best groups are ones that arise out of friendships, and exist on an informal basis. Then there's no big instituion to defend or "protect". Hard to have outside a big city though.

True enough Danny, just about everyone who was active at the end of TOPY are still in touch :)

luka
16-09-2009, 02:52 AM
does anyone have anything to say about the tarot? i ask because its something a lot of poets have been interested in, olson for example was very keen on the tarot, and a have a set of cards but i never look at them because i don't have any way to make them meaningful. i dont have any interest in divination. i couldn't care less.

low band
16-09-2009, 06:35 AM
does anyone have anything to say about the tarot? i ask because its something a lot of poets have been interested in, olson for example was very keen on the tarot, and a have a set of cards but i never look at them because i don't have any way to make them meaningful. i dont have any interest in divination. i couldn't care less.

Alejandro Jodorowsky is worth checking out for Tarot stuff, there is a documentary that he made (or was made about him) that features his take and use of the cards. The deck he helped re-print (a version of the Tarot of Marseilles) is one of my favorites.

The Book of Thoth by Crowley is also worth picking up.

luka
16-09-2009, 06:41 AM
i have the book of thoth. i havent' read it yet.
but if you have a favourite set of cards then presumably you have something to say personally

luka
16-09-2009, 06:42 AM
im finding it a bit frustrating that people are assiduously avoiding discussing their own practices and experiences.

low band
16-09-2009, 06:43 AM
Regarding Tarot in poetry, T.S Eliot's The Wasteland is probably the most famous.

luka
16-09-2009, 06:45 AM
yeah i know all about poetry...
now tell me how you use a pack of tarot cards and what you get out of it.
(sorry to sound demanding, but i am)

luka
16-09-2009, 06:53 AM
surely this is not too much to ask for.
what do you do in practical terms, ways you lay out the cards etc
why do you do it? divination? meditation etc
what results do you get and how do you interpret them?
what rules do you hold yourself too
etc
etc

low band
16-09-2009, 07:02 AM
surely this is not too much to ask for.
what do you do in practical terms, ways you lay out the cards etc
why do you do it? divination? meditation etc
what results do you get and how do you interpret them?
what rules do you hold yourself too
etc
etc

You're a feisty one.. It's hard enough trying to articulate stuff in person never mind trying to type in a small box while in the middle of doing work.

Personally I find the cards can be a good tool for meditation, and that there can at times be a correlation between the act of immersing yourself in the cards imagery and what starts to take place/unravel in the world around you.

luka
16-09-2009, 07:10 AM
ok you're at work, fine, think about it, formulate a response and get back to me.
a box should be the easiest thing to put your thoughts into. a page is a box.

luka
16-09-2009, 08:57 AM
http://www.nli.ie/yeats/main.html

mistersloane
16-09-2009, 10:25 AM
I started off on the Waite pack and then moved to the Thoth pack, was never interested in divination - I hated what Dante did to them in Canto 20 but I thought it was kinda accurate .

The Tarot just tells you what you already know at the moment you read the cards. I used to like looking at the colours, cos I always found colours difficult. If you have problems with thinking about objects, or visualisation, then they can be useful too - I think you said you did earlier in the thread? - but I found thinking about a brick more useful.

mistersloane
16-09-2009, 10:27 AM
I've never really been into traditional magickal orders, the IOT had a chance to be different but as soon as Peter Carroll took over he aligned it with the OTO and for me it was over the day he did that. I also had a problem with some of the right wing BS going on in the IOT as well.

I guess it suits some people and I've be invited to join many an order, but I really never wanted to join anything. TOPY was more free form, into ideas and being creative, so I went with that but as soon as that became just the same people doing the work we closed it down.

Ah I didn't know that, thanks!

luka
16-09-2009, 12:59 PM
I used to like looking at the colours, cos I always found colours difficult.

im not sure what you mean by this. what does it mean to find colours 'difficult'?
i dont find visualisation difficult. its not part of my makeup and i don't have any interest in developing it. other people can do it, thats great. i cant.

low band
16-09-2009, 01:45 PM
ok you're at work, fine, think about it, formulate a response and get back to me.
a box should be the easiest thing to put your thoughts into. a page is a box.

heh..

Well I've already mentioned above that I like playing around with certain packs of cards (maybe 2 or 3 decks in a whole sea of awfulness). I don't use them for divinatory purposes and would agree somewhat with Mr Sloane's assessment.
I have had interesting things happen when using them as a meditative device, an example would be the two weeks I spent with the Tower card, shortly after this time (about another 2 weeks) I lost my job, on the same day I was supposedly signing a contract on a flat that afternoon, which obviously fell through and a few other things came about in quick succession. This has turned out to be a good thing in hindsight, I think.. (it happened around 4 years ago), but it took a long time for recovery to start.

Obviously this could be down to coincidence, but there does appear to be something happening (judging my a myriad of other things experienced over the years, and not just using Tarot which is quite rare for me) and this is what in effect draws me to Magick, not any sense of attaining 'power', but more as a way of living.

mistersloane
16-09-2009, 03:39 PM
im not sure what you mean by this. what does it mean to find colours 'difficult'?
i dont find visualisation difficult. its not part of my makeup and i don't have any interest in developing it. other people can do it, thats great. i cant.

It meant that I couldn't see colours in my head, in my willed imagination. I had dreams in vivid hallucinatory colours but couldn't do it 'at will', so thought that visualisation wasn't part of my make up either, so I went out of my way to be able to do it, I'm funny like that. I thought it would be useful for writing, for imagining scenes with colour, taste, smell, things that I hadn't experienced so I wasn't purely writing from experience.

Sorry, I thought you might be interested in learning how to do it. It's a large part of the magical process I think, certainly for the Tarot and Kabbalah. Seeing things in 3-D with colours. It kinda helped but what helped most was training to be a mason (building mason, though the similarities were there for me) and we got told how to visualise a brick, which in a minute of telling made more sense to me and helped me see in 3-D in my head better than 4 years of reading magical stuff.

BareBones
16-09-2009, 05:35 PM
curious to know whether any of you sigil practitioners have "charged" your sigil in this way:

"CHARGING THE SIGIL

There are several ways to do it, one of the most popular is to masturbate and concentrate on the sigil during the climax..." (http://www.psychic101.com/sigil-magick.html)

DannyL
16-09-2009, 06:18 PM
curious to know whether any of you sigil practitioners have "charged" your sigil in this way:

"CHARGING THE SIGIL

There are several ways to do it, one of the most popular is to masturbate and concentrate on the sigil during the climax..." (http://www.psychic101.com/sigil-magick.html)

That's one of things I don't like about sigils, not wanking per se, but ... The originator of the idea was a a guy called Austin Spare. His work is complex, cryptic, subtle... and says something really fascinating about the mechanics of belief and the way our minds work. The basic mechanics were picked out of his work for the early Chaos magic stuff, as it's quite simple - isolate a desire, focus on it intensely and let it go - and through the magic rubbish-generation of the internet its become this totally crappy dumbed down formula, with all the magick washed out of it.

A lot of people can't seen to think beyond the sigil formula, and these kind of formulas are the exact opposite of the creativity you find in his work.

So now reading about magick on the internet and magical justifications for wanking are fundamentally connected. Coincidence? I think not.

If you want to read about sigils, read Spare.

Martin Dust
16-09-2009, 06:33 PM
^^^ This

DannyL
16-09-2009, 06:38 PM
That last line sounds a bit annoying and didactic, which it's not meant to. Its just reading Spare and having your brain twisted up is more interesting than some 5 second formula thingy.

STN
16-09-2009, 07:00 PM
I can summon pretty much no enthusiasm for this sort of thing, but I am keen on Austin Osman Spare. I find him a very humane character.

DannyL
16-09-2009, 08:33 PM
How do you work with neither neither stuff Mal? Anything to do with music and performance for you? Might write a bit about my own experiences when I've had a think.

luka
17-09-2009, 06:48 AM
sorry sloane im with you now reading that back i sound weirdly agressive whcihc wasnt my intention. ive changed my habits, im drinking a lot of coffee and being lucid which makes me a bit blunt or something. i apologise. i like teaching myself to do things i have no aptitude for too, maybe i should give visulaisation a go.

luka
17-09-2009, 06:53 AM
and again to reiterate what i am really interested in is not what books i should read but in peoples personal experiences and practices. i know i haven't offered much myself. it's something i'd have to think about but as a way to get other people to give something, i suppose i should....

massrock
17-09-2009, 09:44 AM
I like the I Ching.

Tarot can be very impressive but I Ching is more like something you can consult regularly. I feel like it has a friendly, slightly cheeky voice, but it tells you straight when it needs to. ;) Tarot is more like a heavy psychoanalytical session. Also you need more background in it to make it useful, the symbolism can be quite oblique I find. Not a fan of the Thoth deck for that reason. I guess it's a matter of what resonates with you intuitively.

For me it's more about meditating on situations and thoughts / feelings about them than 'telling the future' (duh), or bringing other points of view to bear. Most of the time these days I will use the coins method, but if you do the whole yarrow stalks thing it's good for focus and helps you to feel like you've done something significant to engage the oracle.

I'm not sure if saying that these things just tell you what you already know is that interesting or useful from a magick point of view. Sure on one level you have a set of generalities that can reflect universal inner conditions (archetypes), but there's also ways of looking at it where certain 'random' acts can help to reveal other interconnections. Or not, or something else. But if you think synchronicities happen at all then why not.

massrock
17-09-2009, 10:01 AM
That last line sounds a bit annoying and didactic, which it's not meant to. Its just reading Spare and having your brain twisted up is more interesting than some 5 second formula thingy.
Goes without saying there's always going to be a lot of rubbish on the net.

But, there are points of contact with ideas. It's up to the individual to investigate further. If someone is not bringing any creativity or imagination to bear (or if they don't have any) then that's their lookout really.

DannyL
17-09-2009, 10:22 AM
and again to reiterate what i am really interested in is not what books i should read but in peoples personal experiences and practices. i know i haven't offered much myself. it's something i'd have to think about but as a way to get other people to give something, i suppose i should....

There's a degree to which one doesn't want to write up or share this kind of experience, though. Not just 'cos of fear of ridicule but because if something is really powerful to you personally, you don't want to reduce that by blabbing about it to anyone who'll listen. "To know, to dare, to will, and to keep silent". There's certain things I won't even tell anyone about (normally things that are current), and then there's things that I feel happy to share over a pint but don't want to commit to a screen. With the latter, it'd feel like it was "leaking" - a parallel might be if in the middle of writing a poem or a story, you decided to go and discuss it to death with anyone in earshot. Wouldn't do much for the crucible of the creative process, I think.

Martin Dust
17-09-2009, 10:37 AM
How do you work with neither neither stuff Mal? Anything to do with music and performance for you? Might write a bit about my own experiences when I've had a think.

Most common is to sit alone in the studio, with all the tools I need at hand, and drift off into not thinking anything at all - not as easy as it sounds. I often use pictures/sounds/words to invoke/evoke the feeling I'm after. If it's not working I switch up to something else but over the last two years I've kinda be able to get there all the time.

I often just go for a long drive on the M1 and just keep think the same thought or mantra over and over and over - until it goes beyond the automatic.

I still drawn and make musical sigils, often hiding them in strange places only to find them again years later :) The downside of this is, often I can end up in a unpredictable emotional mess, which is not good if other people are in the studio - there's been times when Ken and Rich have walked in and just turned around without a word :)

DannyL
17-09-2009, 10:41 AM
I like the I Ching.

Tarot can be very impressive but I Ching is more like something you can consult regularly. I feel like it has a friendly, slightly cheeky voice, but it tells you straight when it needs to. ;) Tarot is more like a heavy psychoanalytical session. Also you need more background in it to make it useful, the symbolism can be quite oblique I find. Not a fan of the Thoth deck for that reason. I guess it's a matter of what resonates with you intuitively.

For me it's more about meditating on situations and thoughts / feelings about them than 'telling the future' (duh), or bringing other points of view to bear. Most of the time these days I will use the coins method, but if you do the whole yarrow stalks thing it's good for focus and helps you to feel like you've done something significant to engage the oracle.

I'm not sure if saying that these things just tell you what you already know is that interesting or useful from a magick point of view. Sure on one level you have a set of generalities that can reflect universal inner conditions (archetypes), but there's also ways of looking at it where certain 'random' acts can help to reveal other interconnections. Or not, or something else. But if you think synchronicities happen at all then why not.


I love the I Ching also. I tend to use it to help make decisions when I'm at a point when I can't decide something. It tends to reflect back the situation to me, and normally gives a sensilbe angle of departure alongside that. I really focus on the lines and use a method to narrow down multiple changing lines to oen that is most important - this way you feel like you're getting direct, precise advice rather than getting a bit lost. I've often found that some of the most striking divinations are ones I can't undersand on first - this is normally because I've made up on my mind about a situation ("Of course she fancies me!", "I'm defintely going to get that job!") and have become attached to a certain outcome and can't acknowledge that the situation isn't in accord with what's going on in my head.

An anecdote I don't mind sharing - I was in Thailand, on one of the little islands. Ended up drinking most of the afternoon with some English guys and a West Ham supporting expat who ran the bar. Stumbled back to my room, and fell asleep and woke up at 7 or 8. Having a quick search through my stuff I realised I'd lost my moneybelt which contained most of my cash and my passport. I ran back down to the bar in a panic. No joy. SHITSHITSHIT. I ran back to the room and tore it apart looking for the passport. It's still not there. I'm next to tears, thinking about how I'll have to borrow money to get back to Bangkok, going to the Embassy etc. I decide to throw the I Ching to see what I should do - I get the answer "Waiting" and a line which states that "Help will come from an unexpected source". Unsurprsingly, this doesn't break my negativty, in fact I remember thinking "FUCK OFF what a load of irrelevant bollocks". I go back down to the bar. I sat miserably, someone kindly buys me a beer - and a complete stranger overhears what we're talking about, and says "oh, there's was someone in here earlier, who'd found a passport". To cut a longish story short the bar owner determined the identity of who had it - it was a women who lived in hut on the beach. We went round there, and she had my passport and all my money wrapped up safely in a blanket. I almost passed out with relief.

So, sometimes, you get an answer that you can't hear.

DannyL
17-09-2009, 11:14 AM
Most common is to sit alone in the studio, with all the tools I need at hand, and drift off into not thinking anything at all - not as easy as it sounds. I often use pictures/sounds/words to invoke/evoke the feeling I'm after. If it's not working I switch up to something else but over the last two years I've kinda be able to get there all the time.

I often just go for a long drive on the M1 and just keep think the same thought or mantra over and over and over - until it goes beyond the automatic.

I still drawn and make musical sigils, often hiding them in strange places only to find them again years later :) The downside of this is, often I can end up in a unpredictable emotional mess, which is not good if other people are in the studio - there's been times when Ken and Rich have walked in and just turned around without a word :)

Really interesting, ta.

I used to work with that idea by opposing opposites to each other. Usually my own ideas/attachments/emotions especially when I was strongly charged up about something i.e. when I found myself really angry at someone I might contemplate a time when they'd been kind to me, or how they'd appear to their kids, and keep on doing this over and over until I wasn't really thinking about or siding with anything - just left with this free-floating mass of excitment, which I'd use to charge the sigil. This reduced me to tears once or twice.

I don't know if the magic worked as such, in most cases, can't remember most of what the sigils were for, but it's an interesting processes to go through. Makes you a lot more mentally flexible and self-aware anyway. I can see similarities with this and Buddhist compassion-generation meditations.

luka
17-09-2009, 11:26 AM
oh yeah danny sorry i was forgetting abut that Golom tendency in people. holding onto your treasures in a dark cave!
i should have known better. i don't really feel like that.

Martin Dust
17-09-2009, 12:31 PM
Really interesting, ta.
I used to work with that idea by opposing opposites to each other. Usually my own ideas/attachments/emotions especially when I was strongly charged up about something i.e. when I found myself really angry at someone I might contemplate a time when they'd been kind to me, or how they'd appear to their kids, and keep on doing this over and over until I wasn't really thinking about or siding with anything - just left with this free-floating mass of excitment, which I'd use to charge the sigil. This reduced me to tears once or twice.

I can hold a grudge for years and years, someone who wronged me a couple of years is just about to get the treatment, if only to get it out of my head space. I love using the Burroughs method of photocopying a photo and placing said images in my shoes and spending the next couple of days stomping on their face :) Silly but it feels so good :)



I don't know if the magic worked as such, in most cases, can't remember most of what the sigils were for, but it's an interesting processes to go through. Makes you a lot more mentally flexible and self-aware anyway. I can see similarities with this and Buddhist compassion-generation meditations.

Sometimes for me it's just a great way to put a full stop of the end of matters/things - done.

DannyL
17-09-2009, 08:10 PM
oh yeah danny sorry i was forgetting abut that Golom tendency in people. holding onto your treasures in a dark cave!
i should have known better. i don't really feel like that.

That strikes me as another too much coffee statement - it ain't really like that.

continuum
17-09-2009, 11:18 PM
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mms
18-09-2009, 09:08 AM
I can summon pretty much no enthusiasm for this sort of thing, but I am keen on Austin Osman Spare. I find him a very humane character.

i saw a very good talk on some aspects of Austin Osman Spare's art recently, and the way he used certain techniques in his art to create a kind of hypnagogic view everything turned surreal, more so, and more effectivley that the bolder gestures of the 'surrealist painters'. Also the way he worked with automatic drawing, it's a bit ridiculous he's not more well known but as it is you know.

Martin Dust
18-09-2009, 10:30 AM
i saw a very good talk on some aspects of Austin Osman Spare's art recently, and the way he used certain techniques in his art to create a kind of hypnagogic view everything turned surreal, more so, and more effectivley that the bolder gestures of the 'surrealist painters'. Also the way he worked with automatic drawing, it's a bit ridiculous he's not more well known but as it is you know.

True, Gen had a picture that Austin did of the women that taught him, simple pencil and pastels, is the most haunting thing I've ever seen.

mms
18-09-2009, 10:39 AM
True, Gen had a picture that Austin did of the women that taught him, simple pencil and pastels, is the most haunting thing I've ever seen.

Mrs Patterson?

The thing is though that almost all the important 20th century artists and some musicians in Europe anyway, were touched by people like the Theosophists etc, the further you dig the more you find the influence of this and spiritualism, the connections get really interesting, esp with things like ideas around synasthesia induction, colour organs, kandinsky etc, i guess in some ways it's the internal the remapping of belief, and objective life in the Aftermath of the European Wars.

Martin Dust
18-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Mrs Patterson?

Yeah. Gen wanted to drop some acid and see who could stare at it for the longest, I wasn't keen :) The depth in that picture had a really sinister vibe to it, like at any point she was going to flick her eyes open and give you the evils!



The thing is though that almost all the important 20th century artists and some musicians in Europe anyway, were touched by people like the Theosophists etc, the further you dig the more you find the influence of this and spiritualism, the connections get really interesting, esp with things like ideas around synasthesia induction, colour organs, kandinsky etc, i guess in some ways it's the internal the remapping of belief, and objective life in the Aftermath of the European Wars.

Very much so, the remapping is an important part and it takes a lot of work but it's very interesting if you can come out the "other side".

luka
18-09-2009, 04:21 PM
you might be right dan, but i'll say what i feel at the time, regardless and if its wrong you can pull me up on it no problem
im a humble guy, ask anyone

DannyL
18-09-2009, 05:08 PM
Fair enough. I don't think not wanting to put everything on the net makes you like Gollum. Plenty of good reasons not to do so that aren't just mindless hoarding related. I've been trying to be confessional enough in this thread to make it worth reading anyway.

Onto to something more interesting:

The thing is though that almost all the important 20th century artists and some musicians in Europe anyway, were touched by people like the Theosophists etc, the further you dig the more you find the influence of this and spiritualism, the connections get really interesting, esp with things like ideas around synasthesia induction, colour organs, kandinsky etc, i guess in some ways it's the internal the remapping of belief, and objective life in the Aftermath of the European Wars.

You ever looked into the roster of the Golden Dawn? Pretty incredible line up of loads of the talents of the day. Wallace Budge (famous Eygptoloist), Bram Stoker, Algernon Blackwood, Arthur Machen and women as well - Moina Mathers, Florence Farr, Annie Hornimann. Amazing cast of characters.

Phil Hine has been doing a lot of research into this and the influence of theosophical ideas on contemporary occult and new age - don't know if any of it has been put online yet though. It's been the subject of a couple of lecture series' at Treadwells. Worth getting down there if you can.

Also, for piece of post-war aftermath writing infused with occultism - check Steffi Grant's intro to "Zos Speaks". It really is an amazing bit of writing. Evokes a whole world that's now disappeared.

STN
18-09-2009, 05:12 PM
Fair enough. I don't think not wanting to put everything on the net makes you like Gollum. Plenty of good reasons not to do so that aren't just mindless hoarding related. I've been trying to be confessional enough in this thread to make it worth reading anyway.

Onto to something more interesting:

The thing is though that almost all the important 20th century artists and some musicians in Europe anyway, were touched by people like the Theosophists etc, the further you dig the more you find the influence of this and spiritualism, the connections get really interesting, esp with things like ideas around synasthesia induction, colour organs, kandinsky etc, i guess in some ways it's the internal the remapping of belief, and objective life in the Aftermath of the European Wars.

You ever looked into the roster of the Golden Dawn? Pretty incredible line up of loads of the talents of the day. Wallace Budge (famous Eygptoloist), Bram Stoker, Algernon Blackwood, Arthur Machen and women as well - Moina Mathers, Florence Farr, Annie Hornimann. Amazing cast of characters.

Phil Hine has been doing a lot of research into this and the influence of theosophical ideas on contemporary occult and new age - don't know if any of it has been put online yet though. It's been the subject of a couple of lecture series' at Treadwells. Worth getting down there if you can.

Also, for piece of post-war aftermath writing infused with occultism - check Steffi Grant's intro to "Zos Speaks". It really is an amazing bit of writing. Evokes a whole world that's not disappeared.


And WB Yeats as well I think?

DannyL
18-09-2009, 05:28 PM
Indeed. That's a partial list of the top of my head. Plus Crowley, Mathers, Wescott etc. Pretty amazing really, wish I knew more about it - perhaps occultism was just the fashion for movers and shakers in the arts world at the time. Bit like Damien Hirst and Tracy Emin being in the IOT (well, maybe they are - they just don't like to talk about it :) )

mms
18-09-2009, 06:49 PM
Indeed. That's a partial list of the top of my head. Plus Crowley, Mathers, Wescott etc. Pretty amazing really, wish I knew more about it - perhaps occultism was just the fashion for movers and shakers in the arts world at the time. Bit like Damien Hirst and Tracy Emin being in the IOT (well, maybe they are - they just don't like to talk about it :) )

apparently natalie umbruglias into seances;)

CHAOTROPIC
19-09-2009, 06:21 AM
Oh, this is my mate Steve's blog. Interesting combination of voodoo and record obsession.

http://cleanlivingindifficultcircumstances.blogspot.com/

Steve Grasso is a friend of mine too ... really great guy & the most inspiring magician I know, I think ... really makes sense of the whole mess.

Loved the oppositional emotional sigilisation .. I'll be trying that.

I'm really into all this too. Dunno what to say really. I'm a bit drunk. Erm ... chaos magic is great & much maligned now, as devotion has lost its sting & everyone wants to get back to religion, apparently, but sigils really work & the old-school Golden Dawn shit still has real power. Every sigil I've ever performed has paid off, spectacularly. & personally, I try to do the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram at least once a week, with incense & candles & daggers & the full works, & it's still the best grounding meditation I've ever practiced.

I'm with Luka, completely, on the basics though. Synchronicity & kindof letting the subconscious naturally bleed into & be bled into, the world, just seems to work. For me at least.

I'm glad this thread is here. It's lovely to read of people's experience of this.

mms
19-09-2009, 10:57 AM
Fair enough. I don't think not wanting to put everything on the net makes you like Gollum. Plenty of good reasons not to do so that aren't just mindless hoarding related. I've been trying to be confessional enough in this thread to make it worth reading anyway.

Onto to something more interesting:

The thing is though that almost all the important 20th century artists and some musicians in Europe anyway, were touched by people like the Theosophists etc, the further you dig the more you find the influence of this and spiritualism, the connections get really interesting, esp with things like ideas around synasthesia induction, colour organs, kandinsky etc, i guess in some ways it's the internal the remapping of belief, and objective life in the Aftermath of the European Wars.

You ever looked into the roster of the Golden Dawn? Pretty incredible line up of loads of the talents of the day. Wallace Budge (famous Eygptoloist), Bram Stoker, Algernon Blackwood, Arthur Machen and women as well - Moina Mathers, Florence Farr, Annie Hornimann. Amazing cast of characters.

Phil Hine has been doing a lot of research into this and the influence of theosophical ideas on contemporary occult and new age - don't know if any of it has been put online yet though. It's been the subject of a couple of lecture series' at Treadwells. Worth getting down there if you can.

Also, for piece of post-war aftermath writing infused with occultism - check Steffi Grant's intro to "Zos Speaks". It really is an amazing bit of writing. Evokes a whole world that's not disappeared.


sounds very interesting, i will check that, i wonder what the platform is to play out these things now, i keep on thinking internet etc, but it seems too easy to say that, and it's a crap cliche.

The thing seems to be changing and adapting too, ppl are beginning to realise it doesnt all start with the golden dawn, although alot of ppl seem stuck in victoriana, or a kind of dull gothicness.
That Blackwood book ' the willows' is perfect, an absolutely perfect description of animistic nature.

luka
20-09-2009, 06:00 AM
hello steve

Martin Dust
20-09-2009, 09:15 AM
The thing seems to be changing and adapting too, ppl are beginning to realise it doesnt all start with the golden dawn, although alot of ppl seem stuck in victoriana, or a kind of dull gothicness.


I think this is the key, but all the new orders aligned themselves and took on the old rituals from yesteryear out of fear of having no history I believe. They didn't need to IMHO.

mms
20-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Steve Grasso is a friend of mine too ... really great guy & the most inspiring magician I know, I think ... really makes sense of the whole mess.

Loved the oppositional emotional sigilisation .. I'll be trying that.

I'm really into all this too. Dunno what to say really. I'm a bit drunk. Erm ... chaos magic is great & much maligned now, as devotion has lost its sting & everyone wants to get back to religion, apparently, but sigils really work & the old-school Golden Dawn shit still has real power. Every sigil I've ever performed has paid off, spectacularly. & personally, I try to do the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram at least once a week, with incense & candles & daggers & the full works, & it's still the best grounding meditation I've ever practiced.

I'm with Luka, completely, on the basics though. Synchronicity & kindof letting the subconscious naturally bleed into & be bled into, the world, just seems to work. For me at least.

I'm glad this thread is here. It's lovely to read of people's experience of this.

Yes i know Steve too, superb fellow, as down to earth as a person could be and a real artist.

DannyL
22-09-2009, 10:35 PM
A few of you may find this board interesting

http://liminalnation.org/discuss/

Some good threads over there.

DannyL
28-09-2009, 10:12 AM
If anyone is interested in Spare, you could do worse than check out Fulgur's website: http://www.fulgur.co.uk/authors/aos/

They have several Spare books for download for free, some essays and other bits and pieces. Various people are meant to be working on biographys of Spare - Robert Ansell is one, I think. Be interesting to see what they have to say when they come out and how much they disrupt the view of Spare put about by Kenneth Grant.

This is a nice essay by him:

http://www.fulgur.co.uk/authors/aos/articles/the-living-word-of-zos/

Related to the chat about sigils above:

Fifty years after his death it is this resolve, the Stoicism of Zos, that seems a much more authentic legacy than the cults of acquisitive formulae descended from popular myth.

low band
28-09-2009, 12:27 PM
I wish I had more money so I could keep buying Fulgur releases, good quality stuff that.

There's a nice selection of Spare material at hermetic.com (http://hermetic.com/spare/)

vimothy
28-09-2009, 03:56 PM
I wish I had more money so I could keep buying Fulgur releases, good quality stuff that.

Me three -- I love the Xoanon / Fulgur limited editions...

rob_giri
18-10-2009, 02:52 AM
I apologize if I undermine this thread, as I have not bothered yet to read it's entirety.

The subject in question is something of great importance to me and I have spent some years in study of, and this is what I have to say


Magick is the art and science of changing the 'brain' with one's Will, and effecting change in the universe with one's will. That is, it is the process of participating in the transformation of one's nervous system - including the various muscular tensions around the endocrine system, towards the accessing and embodiment non-local sources of consciousness, and the accessing and purifying of the various forces that make up the personality. The art of harnessing the power of the mind, opening the heart and becoming oneself.

The interesting note is - the difference between Magick and Mysticism. Whereas Magick is about harnessing Will - control over the forces of nature, Mysticism may be more about Receptivity - becoming receptive and harmonized to the forces of nature. Every religious/spiritual/metaphysical/esoteric bias relates to these two polar sides in different ways. Too much of either is usually where shit falls from the sky - one can be either too Magick-orientated with the Will (libertarian nut-case magicko control freaks) or be too submissive with mysiticism (religious submission, hippie fatalism, bliss-ninny flakiness)

In short - most of what you hear and read about magick and the occult is very misleading and mostly bullshit, in my opinion.

One can examine Aleister Crowley as the obvious source and reference point of 20th Century magick (given that it was he who in fact coined the term 'magick' with a k after his seminal years in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn)

The Golden Dawn were a group of occultists who distilled down hundreds of years of Western occultism, mostly from the hebrew Kabbalah and Continental Tarot tradition, and developed a system laiden with their own dogmas in late 19th century London. They invented a new language that promoted responsibility, autonomy and integrity beyond religious submission. Their source material was mostly from a few continental occultists from the 19th and 18th century and Dr John Dee's enochian studies. They invented a lot of it too, including the Tarot-Tree of Life connections and coining the word 'Qabala' with a Q, to seperate it from the more orthodox-Jewish 'Kabbalah'.

Aleister Crowley effectively distilled that information in his own oevre and then his protege, Israel Regardie, further distilled it into a new system. Regardie's time studying Wilhelm Reich was very important in this, as it helped Regardied both psychologize and somatisize Crowley's esotericism. His book about Crowley 'The I in the Triangle' encaptures this view.

Subsequently, Regardie's protege Christopher S Hyatt (Alan Miller PhD), from the 70s-80s, then distilled it even further, mixing it with elements of Sufism, Indian Tantra, the methods of G. I Gurdjieff, Neo-Reichian Practices and his double-PhD expertise of 30 years experience in experimental and laboratory psychology. If one wants to study the most modern up-to-date magickal study then Hyatt's lineage and legacy is the way to go. He coined this sythesized system 'Undoing' and mixed it with his own misanthropic Randian Libertarian politics, for better or worse.

Then there are the Golden Dawn sects that are still operating from Regardie's legacy, mostly in the US - and most importantly, The Chaos Magick groups and writers such as Phil Hine and Peter Carroll, Zos and the Temple of Set, who took most of their information from Crowley, A.O Spare, the NLP practicioners and Robert Anton Wilson - who both took their information from Alfred Korsybski's General Semantics.

That leaves us with Hyatt and the Chaos Magick people. There are many other groups of course. For a really quite good summary of what Magick really is essentially all about, I suggest reading this by Nick Pell. http://blacksungazette.com/?p=399. Notice the innate misanthropic bad-ass attitude.

Hyatt's system stands out as the most up-to-date because of it's basis in physicality, mostly disregarding unnecessary metaphysical nonsense. As Nick Pell says in that article - 'if you're not changing the body, then you're just programming your mind with more bullshit'

In my opinion, though they all have merit and are really genius in their own way, and cater to the freaks and weirdos who are into this shit, these groups fail, for me at least, in a few regards. They disregard the mystical embrace, and as such most 'modern magick' (followers of Hyatt's Undoing, Chaos Magick people, neo-Crowleyites) is really a deluded form of ego-inflation. They fail to really reconcile proper rationale and sense-presence with their own metaphysics, and more often than not it turns into a self-indulgent soup.

Since the question about Magick, that's the important information to know about the Western magickal lineage.

In terms of Spiritualism and Theosophy, most of that can be seen as origins of what we call 'new age' now - in terms of the fluffy light-headed stuff that is all talk, all metaphysics and no guts. Hyatt was a reactionary against that stuff and that was his true genius - he saw that thanks to Madame Blavatsky most of modern spiritual practices are cloudy-headed bullshit that talk of a seperation between this and that, a fixation on auras, kundalini and chakras and all that other shit. These things are real and very valid, for sure - but the way that the theosophists talked about them and the attitude they had towards them in their disembodied way was delusional and dangerous. Don't even bother with spiritualism or theosophy. Rudolf Steiner, however, was amazing in his own right.

What stands apart from all of this stuff was and is the system brought to the west by G.I Gurdjieff, most commonly referred to as 'the fourth way' or just simply 'the Work'. Gurdjieff taught a hugely expansive system of Self-integration, self-initiation and ungoing self-work that stands apart from all of the hermetic magick traditions and makes them seem awefully naive. One of his main premises was that theosophy, magick and spiritualism were all forms of psychosis and were not to be trusted because of their fixation on metaphysical issues which only increase and expand fantasy and don't promote one to really engage with reality and one's Conscience. I won't and can't go into it because it can wait for another discussion. Crowley visited Gurdjieff's chateau outside Paris once, and after showing him hospitality for a weekend, promptly threw him out and told him never to return, condemning him as a filthy, dirty person. Gurdjieff died like a king and was given a funeral by thousands of Parisians and was mourned as 'the greatest man alive', whereas Crowley died a poor, forgotten heroin addict in a old nursing home. Interesting story. Gurdjieff's source material was ancient Egyptian, central-Asian Sufi and ancient esoteric Christian. Western Alchemy with its bias towards receptivity has a lot to do with Gurdjieff, as opposed to Magick's bias towards Will.


Lastly, there is Antero Alli. Antero is a Finnish-born filmmaker, theatre-director, ritualist, astrologer and author who lives in Berkely, CA and who has been writing books since the 80s, starting with his seminal 'Angel Tech'. Angel Tech was inspired by Gurdjieff, Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson and Hyatt himself - although Antero eventually broke away from Hyatt after they reached a point of essential disagreement - Hyatt was a magician invested in power and Will, whereas Antero was a mystic, invested in devotion, art and receptivity to the body. Their ordeal is discussed in Antero's new book 'The 8-Circuit Brain' that just came out as a 20-year anniversary follow up to Angel Tech. In my opinion, it is the greatest work of esoteric literature. Antero is not concerned with hermetic magick, Crowley or any of the bullshit that comes along with esoterism and the occult - he is interested in real, pragmatic, action and artistic orientated self-work that's aim is the accessing, emobdying and transmission of innate integrity, autonomy and authority in a DIY anarchic fashion similiar to Hakim Bey's Immediatism and the ontology of the TAZ. In my opinion, aside from Gurdjieff, it is about the best group of ideas and practices of what people are looking for when they use the word 'magick' that is around. His ritual Paratheatre practices based up the philosophies of Jerzy Grotowski is a non-dogmatic form of self-work which, in my opinion, stands above any 'magickal' practice that has ever been popularized. No bovine excretia, as Robert Anton Wilson used to say.

Anyway I've gone on for too long. Just my two cents in case u were interested.

Martin Dust
18-10-2009, 09:50 AM
Me three -- I love the Xoanon / Fulgur limited editions...

Make that four, one day I'll get them but right now there's vinyl to press :)

DannyL
18-10-2009, 01:33 PM
Vinyl of course, also being something of a fetish for most of us.

Actually, a mate of mine (Phil, Mal) was saying that he thinks Spare would have hated the designer packaging/mini-industry that's sprung up around his work. Does seem to go against his exhibiting in pubs, Anathema of Zos backturning...

BTW here's a bit of a Spare pop-psych curio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxwn_1K0Aw

DannyL
18-10-2009, 01:39 PM
Hyatt's system stands out as the most up-to-date because of it's basis in physicality

Hyatt's stuff is a knock off of Reichian therapy really via Regardie. As it's systemised and designed for solo working, you won't go as far as you would do in therapeutic relationship - unless you're very lucky maybe. They are still great exercises though. Though I think you can tear out those 6 pages and chuck away the rest of his books. Not much else in IMO.

Also, the guys a fucking loon - have you seen The Psychopah's Bible? Horrible book.

rob_giri
19-10-2009, 08:39 AM
Yea I would have to agree with you here, almost completely. Somehow I can't help but see some significance and importance in his point of view - but his investment in Randian libertarian shite and misanthropic attitudes was undoubtedly connected to the eventual cause of his death.

I would replace what you say about 'therapeutic' setting with group 'self-work'. There is a big difference between the two. Certainly, his bias towards isolation and solo work is flawed in that it doesn't ever reconcile with Gurdjieff's premises, firstly of working with people, secondly of the danger of falling into your own fantasies if you keep too much to yourself.

I think Hyatt failed in the end by not being able to honestly see past his own big-headed insanity. Just look at a lot of his followers - bunch of big-headed jerks to a man.

rob_giri
19-10-2009, 08:41 AM
And also sorry if my long-winded post was too assuming - you obviously are well versed in this literature and language. The post was intended for those who weren't. I've seen this forum usually as a place for those who excel vastly in other areas of intelligence but not neccessary the occult and so forth.

woops
19-10-2009, 10:46 AM
Yea I would have to agree with you here, almost completely. Somehow I can't help but see some significance and importance in his point of view - but his investment in Randian libertarian shite and misanthropic attitudes was undoubtedly connected to the eventual cause of his death.

what, of cancer?!?!


a friend of my Dad's, who knew of my interests in this kind of thing, told me he thought there was someone "working against him" when he was ill. Struck me as pretty paranoid really.

vimothy
19-10-2009, 11:31 AM
Haha -- like being gay, being an Objectivist is bad for you!

woops
19-10-2009, 11:37 AM
ITT : why there's nothing 'natural' about undoing yourself with enhanced meditation...

Martin Dust
20-10-2009, 09:08 PM
Hyatt's system stands out as the most up-to-date because of it's basis in physicality

Hyatt's stuff is a knock off of Reichian therapy really via Regardie. As it's systemised and designed for solo working, you won't go as far as you would do in therapeutic relationship - unless you're very lucky maybe. They are still great exercises though. Though I think you can tear out those 6 pages and chuck away the rest of his books. Not much else in IMO.

Also, the guys a fucking loon - have you seen The Psychopah's Bible? Horrible book.

I once reprinted a Reich booklet, man the letters I got from that made me never touch one of those again :)

Martin Dust
20-10-2009, 09:10 PM
Vinyl of course, also being something of a fetish for most of us.

Actually, a mate of mine (Phil, Mal) was saying that he thinks Spare would have hated the designer packaging/mini-industry that's sprung up around his work. Does seem to go against his exhibiting in pubs, Anathema of Zos backturning...

BTW here's a bit of a Spare pop-psych curio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxwn_1K0Aw

Say hello to Phil from me, it's been a while. I guess he would hate it but had he lived in this time I think he would have loved it :) Maybe he would have hated the mentality rather than the object/volume?

rob_giri
22-10-2009, 03:46 PM
I once reprinted a Reich booklet, man the letters I got from that made me never touch one of those again :)

Care to explain ?


"ITT : why there's nothing 'natural' about undoing yourself with enhanced meditation...

?


What I meant by cryptically writing about his libertarianism being connected to his death - I wasn't saying being an Objectivist is bad for you, I just mean that his political psychopathy was fuelled by his destructive habit patterns. Yea I can't really explain any more so I'll just leave it at that.


And I will take back what I said before - I really believe that he was one of the greatest geniuses ever in a lot of areas, and in a lot of other areas not so much. The same as Crowley really. So many reasons to admire him and so many reasons to condemn him. And that DOESN'T make him all the more genius, that just makes him admirable at least to a certain degree

Room with a view
24-10-2009, 12:17 AM
one thing i've noticed is that bad shit happens to people that fuck me around spiritually. once had someone want to do a reading for me. i reluctantly agreed and she supposedly called up my ancestors to stand behind me and said i could ask of them what i would.

i said nah theres nothing i need to know from them but thanked them for living as they did so i could. couple weeks later this woman lost the plot, ended up naked in someones garden, spent 6 weeks in a psych ward learning how to speak again.

polynesian mysticism is not to be fucked with lightly.

woops
01-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Demonic laughter (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/30/satanic-rituals-gloucestershire)


A vicar has warned his congregation of an increase in "satanic activity" after he found a severed sheep's head mounted on a pole outside a church in his Gloucestershire parish.

The Rev Nick Bromfield warned that "dark forces" were on the rise in the area and revealed a series of mutilated animal carcasses had been found...

He said..."I've been told there are people operating in a darker place and I've seen signs of satanic activity in the forest."

The vicar suggested that the geographical position of the forest close to the border between England and Wales could be a factor. "It's difficult to quantify but there is something about borders that attracts occult activity and the seclusion is also very attractive. They are allowing in forces that can do great damage."

But I think it's something that clergy in many rural parishes have experienced. But my message to the people is 'don't mess', because you risk being duped or unleashing forces you cannot control."

And the punchline...


Naturally it wasn't very pleasant and I burned it.

vimothy
07-12-2009, 04:39 PM
Talking of zombie priests:

http://www.clusterflock.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/VennDiagram_jesus1.gif

Martin Dust
07-12-2009, 05:02 PM
Care to explain ?


Long, begging, sad and silly are just a few words I'd use to describe 99.99% of the letters but it did show me how lost some people are and how they'll cling to anything - sounds a bit cruel but I've never been one for wallowing in it, whatever it may be :)

massrock
17-12-2009, 02:13 PM
From the psychedelic films thread but I'll continue it here. The Mysteries of the Organism film is fun but very silly, and hardly informative about WR's ideas.

I have read a lot of Reich’s stuff and I think it's absolutley fucking amazing, once you get what he's saying and how he's thinking. Incredible mind. One has to get past hostility to the idea of orgone energy though and start thinking in these terms which is where a lot of people will blanche.
Reich is hugely important, he got so much. I think also it's fair to say he did become delusional due to the appalling way he was treated. To me that doesn't discredit him in any way, it shows he really cared and was hurt.

Many years ago I was lucky enough to pick up a few of his books in a second hand shop for a couple of quid. The articulation of the mind / body equivalence, the absolute fundamental importance of breath and orgasm, understanding human functioning in bio-energetic terms, the retention (and possibility of release) of trauma and tension in muscle memory - these things and the emotional plague that results when they are not understood are crucial.

He got sick of trying to help the human race in the end, Listen Little Man, that's one angry screed - he doesn't hold back. Someone has excerpted a bit here. Been a while since I read it. http://www.listenlittleman.com/

Interested in the people that have followed up on his work and tried to apply it - aside from those of us who work quietly in anonymity. I picked up 'The Inward Revolution' by Deborah Benstead and Storm Constantine. Like so many of these things it looks like a cheap New Age self-help thing but it's actually pretty good, practical ideas for meditations and breathing exercises. Yes I've read Hyatt's stuff as well...

Also these more recently -

http://www.theemotionalplague.com/

Not read it but the excerpts lead me to think its contents might be somewhat controversial with some. Not necessarily a bad thing, this is what Reich had to struggle with throughout his work.

Also this, which seems to touch on numerous Dissensian themes.

http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/DeMeo.html

DannyL
29-12-2009, 06:21 PM
Massrock - just seen this post. Am busy so just this is just a quick reminder to self to reply at length. I've got that Saharasia book but haven't read it - seemed too grandiose to me, but I will get round to it. A friend of mine has stayed with him (De Meo) and talks about him very favorably. He's certainly one of the few people out there doing new and interesting work in the Reichian field.



The articulation of the mind / body equivalence, the absolute fundamental importance of breath and orgasm, understanding human functioning in bio-energetic terms, the retention (and possibility of release) of trauma and tension in muscle memory - these things and the emotional plague that results when they are not understood are crucial.

Spot on.

DannyL
29-12-2009, 06:24 PM
BTW am currently reading John Holt's "How Children Learn" - every word of it shows that sensitivity to the living, moving, learning organism that you see in Reich's work. This is why I love his stuff - when you see the connections, it's everywhere.

mistersloane
29-12-2009, 06:32 PM
BTW am currently reading John Holt's "How Children Learn" - every word of it shows that sensitivity to the living, moving, learning organism that you see in Reich's work. This is why I love his stuff - when you see the connections, it's everywhere.

I love, love John Holt's work - How Children Learn and How Children Fail should be compulsory reading for every parent, or anyone thinking about it. I like the way he went slightly mad as well by the end of the second book and in Escape From Childhood, in the way that alot of the 70s liberation people did - he kinda took things to their logical conclusions and the absolute logic and the absolute impossibility of a healthy society seemed to just, well, unhinge a whole bunch of people.