Musical theory thread

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Ok, I have a musical theory question for you all, to do with this brilliant Gainsbourg miniature (good entry for the miniature symphony thread, actually):


Here's the tab:

http://www.gtabs.org/tabpreview/waY...lq9FvqZMxalExn1@/Ah Melody/track1#tabPreview

My question is kinda general. This song flips around from key to key (at least two changes I can see), but can anyone explain the theory for how to manage this and still sound coherent (as he does, brilliantly), or point me to a good explanation on t'interweb?

I guess a key change between verse and chorus would be easy enough, but he seems to achieve it within the first 8 chords, as B flat minor, C minor7 and Dminor can't all be in the same key... :slanted:
 

Papercut

cut to the bone
*i haven't listen to the track cause i'm working* (no youtube)

but quickly, you can think about melody as having resolution. ie if for

G
Eb
Dm
Db
F

G is part of the Fmajor scale. So if there is a melody that starts and ends with those, it can be thought of as having resolution as they are harmonically pleasing. Inside of that Dm is also in Fmajor scale.

So the Eb and Db whilst not in the classic western scale sound fine as they are only slightly inharmonic and thus, to some ears, pleasing.

(a little oversimplified, but hopefully helpful)
 

petergunn

plywood violin
Ok, I have a musical theory question for you all, to do with this brilliant Gainsbourg miniature (good entry for the miniature symphony thread, actually):


Here's the tab:

http://www.gtabs.org/tabpreview/waY...lq9FvqZMxalExn1@/Ah Melody/track1#tabPreview

My question is kinda general. This song flips around from key to key (at least two changes I can see), but can anyone explain the theory for how to manage this and still sound coherent (as he does, brilliantly), or point me to a good explanation on t'interweb?

I guess a key change between verse and chorus would be easy enough, but he seems to achieve it within the first 8 chords, as B flat minor, C minor7 and Dminor can't all be in the same key... :slanted:

these aren't key changes, but related chords... ie. the G maj is the v of v (Cmaj) of F majo... the Eb maj is the iv of iv (B maj)...
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
these aren't key changes, but related chords... ie. the G maj is the v of v (Cmaj) of F majo... the Eb maj is the iv of iv (B maj)...

So you could use the iii of iii and the ii of ii in the same way?

So long since I studied any theory... :confused:

Papercut - thanks for the reply too, that's a v good point.
 

Amplesamples

Well-known member
It's kind of hard to explain, but here goes.....


G G B D
Eb Eb G Bb

Dm D F A
Db Db F Ab
F F A C

A lot of modern music gets away with using 'notes in common' between chords. So - I've underlined the notes where the chords (as triads) have a note in common. Here you can see the chord sequence is split into two parts - G and Eb have 'G' in common.

The last three chords have the note 'F' in common. Basically, Gainsbourg is using a kind of gentle chromaticism that started in the 18th century, by using chords that, while not strictly related, do sound ok together due to these shared notes. The reason it feels 'resolved' is simply because the F is in the last bar of a 4-bar pattern, so it feels finished to western metronomic way of thinking.



the Eb maj is the iv of iv (B maj)...

not actually true. E major is iv of B major.

So you could use the iii of iii and the ii of ii in the same way?

no. You can generally (in strictly Bach chorale harmony style) use chord v of anything to eventually resolve cadences (hence the circle of fifths used in tunes such as Pachelbel's Canon, I will Survive, the theme from Rocky). So if you use chord v of v, its called a secondary dominant. If you use chord v of iv, it's also a secondary dominant.

chord iii of iii is actually chord v!!

(so if you were in G major, chord iii of G is B minor, chord iii of B minor is D major. Chord V of G major is D major.
 
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michael

Bring out the vacuum
About as general as your starting question ;) but it may be worth thinking about how forgiving pop music is of just transposing existing figures around the place... So long as your riff is moving in a fairly regular progression it's possible to modulate by just shunting the whole goddamn track up or down and people roll with it.

The classic example is making a (cheap, IMO) climax towards the end of a song by cranking the entire track up a semitone and repeating the chorus. 'Man In The Mirror' is the one I always think of, 'I Will Always Love You', etc. etc.

That makes very little sense with regards to the "Western Classical" tradition of harmony, but I do think it's made easy on the ear because of the repetition of phrases. If you went from, I dunno, B to C but had the melody or rhythm or arrangement shift as you went it would surely feel like two tracks slammed together.


Otherwise, I agree with the general idea that having notes in common between chords helps to make stuff sound like it makes sense.


As an additional completely loose statement, I reckon people deal with moving around between major chords pretty damn readily, given a cheery enough vibe. Heaps of songs have a 3 chord progression that goes e.g. E -> A -> G. Only one note of a G maj chord fits with the key of E, but it sounds really natural.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
What's the best way to learn to play piano? Is there any book that would be brilliant? I'm too embarrassed to take lessons even though people have offered, because I'd really like to understand eventually what you're all talking about in this thread. I'll see you in ten years.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
What's the best way to learn to play piano? Is there any book that would be brilliant? I'm too embarrassed to take lessons even though people have offered, because I'd really like to understand eventually what you're all talking about in this thread. I'll see you in ten years.

Definitely take lessons at the beginning, to echo the point above, and learn to play improvisationally, rather than by rote from books (which I did, and it's so limiting eventually). Then, voila, bit of practice, you're Ryan Leslie.
 

CHAOTROPIC

on account
Definitely take lessons at the beginning, to echo the point above, and learn to play improvisationally, rather than by rote from books (which I did, and it's so limiting eventually). Then, voila, bit of practice, you're Ryan Leslie.

Yeah, totally. It's worth taking lessons but ... in the end, if you're obsessed about the thing, if you play all the time & work at it, for the joy of it, then you'll develop your own style, influenced by all sorts of things, not just piano, & THEN, you're an interesting pianist.

I've got friends who are professional concert pianists, guys who makes their living at it, who couldn't do the things I do on piano. I'm terribly insecure technically with guys like that, but in the end, the result is the only thing that matters. Fuck being a great jack-of-all-trades. That's for session musicians. Be an amazing 'you'.

Also, a real piano is a completely different proposition than a digital. You can learn on both ... I almost prefer learning on a digital so you concentrate on structure ... then when you move to a real piano, timbre suddenly leaps into the picture & you can simplify. A single note can have infinite forms on an acoustic piano whereas it's really just a datapoint on a digital.

Incidentally, Baboon, nice to meet you tonight!

Sloane, if you ever want some piano pointers, you know where my house is. You'd love my CP-80 :D
 

CHAOTROPIC

on account
What's the best way to learn to play piano? Is there any book that would be brilliant? I'm too embarrassed to take lessons even though people have offered, because I'd really like to understand eventually what you're all talking about in this thread. I'll see you in ten years.

I did all the grades, etc, then stopped for a decade or something & forgot the lot, so maybe it's not the same for everyone ... but I reckon the best way is to buy a piano (you can get a Casio Privia for about £250 on ebay & they're not bad, plus every man & his dog is giving away acoustic pianos on freecycle) & sit it in front of you, in the place you listen to music, & play along to shitloads of stuff. When you're listening to something & the piano is in front of you, just start playing. Find the home key & when it changes, search around for where it goes to & start blocking it out. You'll quickly find that most tracks follow very simple formula. 90% of popular music follows about four basic structures & you'll pick these up intuitively. After about six months to a year of playing along to everything, you'll be able to improvise stuff for yourself. Then you can break the formula & VOILA, you're being 'interesting' :p

Really, like anything, it's a matter of practice, & not letting yourself fall into trance patterns: stay alive, stay aware, & that way you grow as a musician. It's very easy to become a competent boring pianist ... you have to keep growth always in the front of your mind & ignore 'smoothness'. Smoothness is boring, but so is randomness. The knack is to know what you're playing, but surprise people.

& remember that it's a percussion instrument ... 88 hammers smashing into high-tension wires. It's not a 'polite' instrument at all.
X
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
Take lessons, at least at the very beginning. You don't want to develop any bad habits.

yeah, i learned that playing the black keys was a shortcut to sounding emotive a long time ago and i'm still finding myself resorting to G# pentatonic blues over and over again. should really just buckle down and learn some more scales.



new qn: are there any basic pointers on making jazzy/funky chords? i realize the wackness of such a question and bow my head in shame but it would really make music making a lot of fun if i had just a few nice chords to work with...:cool:
 

mixed_biscuits

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