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droid

Guest
Cheers droid! I've not read any Joshi, but the name crops up pretty much everywhere that HPL is mentioned online so I definitely intend to check him out at some point. Have you read Houellebeqc's Against the World, Against Life? I picked it up a few months ago, pretty good I thought (hope it doesn't look like I've cribbed off it too badly in my article...).

I also haven't forgotten your recommendation for that Lovecraftian spy fiction, in fact I've got some Amazon vouchers gathering dust so no reason not to get that too. And have you come across this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadows_Over_Baker_Street? Holmes/Cthulhu x-over! :D

No, I havent, sounds like something Id like. Thanks.

I came across Joshi when I picked up a Lovecraft compendium in the library. Definitely the most loving and detailed notes Ive ever read on the man. Full of insight and biographical nuggets. You'd love his stuff.

The Charles Stross was a bit disappointing. I picked up another one 'The fuller memorandum' which was better. Still - worth a look. Loads of good Lovecraft in jokes and references and passable writing. Stross is a bit of a strange fish, he wrote the amazing 'accelerando', but also an appallingly bad series of fantasy books which I assume were aimed at pre-teen girls. He's got talent but he's a bit of a chancer I reckon.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

Some great stuff there, Y. I certainly see where you're coming from with the 'inanthropocentrism' vs anti-anthropocentrism thing. I think I used 'anti' because while both HPL's and RN's worldviews are, as you correctly point out, inanthropocentric, they are so radically inanthropocentric as to seem 'anti-anthropocentric' in comparison to the default outlook adopted in most fiction. I suppose this is especially true of Lovecraft, given how groundbreaking his work was and given the 80-odd years that have elapsed since Lovecraft's heyday and all the modernist and postmodernist fiction, 'slipstream' sci-fi, magic realism, cyberpunk, Burroughs, Cronenberg, Lynch, continental philosophy and all the rest that has occurred in that time (and which Cyclo draws on, of course).

By way of analogy, I think it's fair to call Nietzsche, Hitchens and Dawkins 'anti-theists' because they spent/spend a good deal of their time and energy proclaiming the non-existence of God. HPL does much the same, implicitly, in his fiction. I'm merely an atheist, by contrast, because I don't make it my vocation to bang on about it (certain old threads on this forum notwithstanding).

So yeah, the Great Old Ones in HPL and the nameless entities of dust, oil and war in Cyclo are certainly inanthropocentric, but the worldviews espoused are (I would say) justifiably called anti-anthropocentric because they represent a radical shift away from the established anthropocentric 'default' position of human culture. Do you see what I mean?

I thought this bit:

Consumption and possession are anthropocentric, to be consumed one is the predators meal, the focus, to be possessed by another entity one is again the focus - despite being devoured or owned by are an evil predator or foe one is still the center of the world, the universe hinging around ones existence. To be parasitized is to be positioned upon ( not 'within' or 'in' ) a chronically inanthropocentric context, the host is not the focus, the parasite is indifferent to hosts existence, one is a means to an end for another being, a habitat.... We don't look at the dirt we roam, we stare at the sun - as does the wondrous Cordyceps Unilateralis.

was particularly great, very Negarestanian!
 
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you

Well-known member
quality distinction there tea! I suppose you would say HPL and Negarestani as authors are anti-anthropocentric because their works are so distinctly inanthropocentric!

ha - I'm glad you liked the Cordyceps Unilateralis analogy, I kinda thought it was a cheap shot at the time but couldn't resist!!
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Not sure if you can rightly call Nietszche an 'anti-theist', lumping him in with Dawkins et al seems pretty harsh. I'd say Nietszche talks more about the end of a certain kind of richly meaningful conception of the world that the drying up of Christian values brings than bare advocation of atheism. God can't die if he didn't exist.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Not sure if you can rightly call Nietszche an 'anti-theist', lumping him in with Dawkins et al seems pretty harsh. I'd say Nietszche talks more about the end of a certain kind of richly meaningful conception of the world that the drying up of Christian values brings than bare advocation of atheism. God can't die if he didn't exist.

In fairness, I've not read Nietzsche in any great depth (read a few chapters from a Collected Works that I borrowed from a philosophy grad friend), and I'm aware that his thoughts on religion go a lot further than the bald statement "God is dead". But taken by itself I think this could be called an "anti-theistic" statement, couldn't it? As you say, Nietzsche wrote extensively about what a society and ethics would look like in a post-Christian, and generally post-theistic, age. I think this is enough to qualify him as an anti-theist rather than 'merely' an atheist - an atheistic philosopher would be someone like Russell who just implicitly takes as a given God's non-existence and carries on with his metaphysics. Though Russell also argued against the existence of God, but I don't think he was concerned about it in the same way Nietzsche was.

That's not to put him in quite the same category as Dawkins, but he's also definitely an anti-theist in that he defines his stance specifically in opposition to theists and openly proselytises against theism.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
quality distinction there tea! I suppose you would say HPL and Negarestani as authors are anti-anthropocentric because their works are so distinctly inanthropocentric!

ha - I'm glad you liked the Cordyceps Unilateralis analogy, I kinda thought it was a cheap shot at the time but couldn't resist!!

I was thinking more of what you said about, in so many words, metaphysical horror (which I'd rather patly dismissed) - namely that in cases of carnivorism (even anthropophagy) the subject of the horror remains the Thing being consumed, but in cases of parasitism the ontic centre shifts to the parasite, the Thing effecting the bodily invasion, and the host is relegated to the periphery. Though I'm not sure this would really be at the top of my list of things to worry about if I were being invaded by unspeakable parasites, it's a neat idea!
 

you

Well-known member
I was thinking more of what you said about, in so many words, metaphysical horror (which I'd rather patly dismissed) - namely that in cases of carnivorism (even anthropophagy) the subject of the horror remains the Thing being consumed, but in cases of parasitism the ontic centre shifts to the parasite, the Thing effecting the bodily invasion, and the host is relegated to the periphery. Though I'm not sure this would really be at the top of my list of things to worry about if I were being invaded by unspeakable parasites, it's a neat idea!

This is touched upon in the Negarestani essay Corpse Bride, the ontological ramification of the Mezentian torture... ( I'd actually really like to find a good source of readings of the psychological aspects of various tortures - gotta be some good shit out there what with all the greek gods and guys ) - maybe I didn't quite make the connection ( between Negarestani's Mezentian example and the inanthropocentric within Cyclonopedia and also HPL ) clear. I mean, being eaten or invaded is always grim I guess - but the self questioning, the ripping from underneath, as you realise you are not the world ( inanthropocentric ontologix ) is a point I keep musing over..... Cyber analogy - what's worse? Flamed or Blanked? They are both traumatic but due to entirely different reasons...
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about..."

I read some of Corpse Bride and was struck by just the sort of metaphysical horror you're talking about - how the shackling of the live man to the corpse mirrors the shackling of the soul to the body, etc. - though of course this idea works outside a strictly materialist context.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps

Yeah, looking forward to that.

I've added a small postsript to my Lovecraft/Cyclo essay - nothing too in-depth, just summing up a few thoughts I've had recently about the style and form of the book, in light (if that's the right word) of some of RN's more recent writing.


Cyclonopedia: post scriptum

I think it’s worth saying a few further words about the structure and style of Cyclonopedia, in addition to its contents and general themes. The book is a rather extreme example of the dictum ‘form follows function’, although ‘(mal)form follows (dys)function’ might perhaps be more applicable here.

As mentioned in the main body of the essay, Negarestani’s assertion that “for every inconsistency on the surface, there is a subterranean consistency” applies just as well to the book as a whole as it supposedly does to ancient Middle Eastern necropolis complexes. At every turn, the hyper-dense guerilla-academic style assaults the reader with historical or linguistic facts and invented ‘truths’, concepts and suggestions of concepts leaping out of the page, almost attacking the reader’s conciousness like a rag-tag army of fanatics. Juxtaposition of opposing themes is used throughout to maintain tension and maximise confusion: thus we have cutting-edge unmanned drones ("mechanical dread") compared to ancient Assyrian war demons ("weapons-grade relics"); the fanatical monotheistic urge towards desertification is linked to the deeply cthonic libido of the Earth and the rotting ‘black Sun’ within it; the curvilinear Arabic script, the lettering in which is inscribed the sacred Word of the Prophet, is revealed as a form of “Middle Eastern dracolatry”, connected to the great Sumero-Babylonian mother-serpent or she-dragon Tiamat, the Persian devil-worm Azhi Dahaka, the Egyptian Apep “and other coiling blasphemies”.

Negarestani’s huge array of thematic sources for the book have another interesting effect. It gives the text the feeling of a scavenging animal – in context, a jackal or vulture – promiscuously flitting from corpse to corpse as it feeds; the corpses in question being the academic disciplines of Middle Eastern languages and history, archaeology, geology, astrophysics, chemistry, mathematics, psychoanalysis and philosophy. Given Negarestani’s well-known interest in putrefaction, decay and ‘nigredo’, this seems to suggest a commingling of the decayed remnants of all these disciplines, melding their blackened, fermented juices into new and strangely fertile (de)compositions. Indeed, in contrast to the traditional idea of artistic creation through composition, it is precisely through decomposition that Negarestani achieves the desired effect of polymathematic phantasmagoria and delirious cosmic horror. “Things leak into each other according to a logic that does not belong to us…”

Perhaps unsurprisingly, this has a clear antecedent in Lovecraft – consider the following lines from The Thing on the Doorstep:

‘As I stepped unsteadily forward, the figure made a semi-liquid sound like that I had heard over the telephone—“glub…glub…”’

(In this case, a man's body has been taken over by an Outsider-become-Insider - a psychic parasite - and his own consciousness has been transferred to the invasive entity's previous vehicle, which is now far gone in organic decay and has been reduced to utter indifferentiation; it could have originally been more or less anything, in line with Henry of Langenstein's observations about the entropic tendency of putrefaction towards sameness, morbidly wondering if an animal of a given species could be generated from the rotten carcass of another.)

The potential for decomposition and repellent softness to blasphemously imitate and subvert creation – “till out of corruption horrid Life springs” – is used to great effect by both authors. In Cyclonopedia, in particular, it gives rise to the entire concept of “leper creativity” whereby disease and disorder provide fertile ground for all manner of pestilential vitality. Uncharted regions…catalytic spaces…decay.
 
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grizzleb

Well-known member
Tea, that's dope as fuck.
I've been thinking about some stuff like that recently in relation to the Lacanian (Zizekian) 'Thing' and the Heideggerian conceptof Geworfenheit. Geworfenheit often is discussed in terms of individual's relations to concrete reality in its social, political and historical dimension. What 'The Thing' seems to signify to me is a king of biological Geworfenheit, and one that, apart from social, historical, political forms can never be 'contextualised'. At the basis of this is a complete alienation from our own very stuff of being, it's incessant delineation of our experience and the inexplicability of its profileration, we are thrown into our own biological growth and its symbiotic nature with decay. As it seems to me, here the very process of composition is necessarily an act also of decomposition.
blah blah blah I need to read more.
 

you

Well-known member
Negarestani’s huge array of thematic sources for the book have another interesting effect. It gives the text the feeling of a scavenging animal – in context, a scarab beetle, jackal or vulture – promiscuously flitting from corpse to corpse as it feeds; the corpses in question being the academic disciplines of Middle Eastern languages and history, archaeology, geophysics, astrophysics, chemistry, mathematics, psychoanalysis and philosophy. Given Negarestani’s well-known interest in putrefaction, decay and ‘nigredo’, this seems to suggest a co-mingling of the decayed remnants of all these disciplines, melding their blackened, fermented juices into new and strangely fertile (de)compositions. Indeed, in contrast to the traditional idea of artistic creation through composition, it is precisely through decomposition that Negarestani achieves the desired effect of polymathematic phantasmagoria and delirious cosmic horror. “Things leak into each other according to a logic that does not belong to us…”decay.[/INDENT]

Aight Tea, yeah, this is a great summary, of the mechanisms implemented ( or rather a summary of the putrefying, writhing together of a million serpents... ) ......in Cyclonopedia, Negarestani has produced a particularly dizzying polythematic tome, the symptom of always reaching for Google....disorder, psycho-discombobulation and thematic dissonance are the catalysts perhaps of leper-creativity...from a rabid putrefaction of myriad sources, relics and themes emerges a force or thing, an inanthropocentric and absolutely uncontexturalised ( due to it's intrinsic otherness ) entity, a wind, a ghost, dust..... This daemon is born of the blackening, the leper-poiesys of a thousand vermicular mechanisms...."for every inconsistency on the surface, there is a subterranean consistency".... keep reading....keep staring.. squint towards the chaos, bulk at such grotesque and beautiful marriages, the wriggling, rotting themes that exist under an unknown gravity, burning and rotting from an unknown sun......the otherness daemon, the thing, this 'ghost' of such blackening and leper-poiesis that lurks amidst, or under Cyclonopedia is never the force we may feel/think 'it' is or naively calculate 'it' to be, uncontexturalized for eternity, utterly inanthropocentric, always there, never known....implicit horror.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Yep. What does all 'higher' human endeavour - the endeavour that we fancy sets ourselves apart from animals that blindly strive, squabble, and screw, and build (hives, nests...) only because of the tyranny of unthinking instinct - have as its ultimate hallmark? The drive to create through concious design, be it tangible structures in wood, brick, stone, metal or silicon, or intangible structures in language, sound, image and algebra. The urge to create order from chaos. But this is ultimately (that is to say, cosmically) futile, as arguably the most inescapable law in physics is the second law of thermodynamics, according to which any local increase in order (decrease in entropy) must be made up for by a decrease in order (increase in entropy) elsewhere, of at least the same magnitude. Hence the most existentially crushing concept in all of science: the heat death of the universe.

But even in far distant ages, when the stars have all exhausted their nuclear fuel and black holes and disordered radiation reign supreme in the universe, there is still the thermodynamic possibility of the Boltzmann Brain - could any form of consciousness be more purely Lovecraftian?

So perhaps inherent even in the law damning the universe to eternal chaos and seeming sterility, there is the potential for "unguessable intelligences" to arise?

"Chemistry (alchemy) begins with decay. [...] Resistance to decay is both futile and fertile.
But then, what is fertility in the sense of resistance towards decay? There is a yawning horror in this quesion.
- RN

"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even Death may die.
- HPL​
 
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faustus

Well-known member
lol

it's an odd site that I occasionally stumble across. a mix of pretentious interviews and reviews (as in the link above) with tame, badly written fiction.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
Yeah, it's weird.

I spent like a day being really into it and now I feel kinda weird.

Maybe that is the point?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Thought that some of you might be interested in this:

http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/the-necrology-interview/

I tried cyclonopedia, but i sort of lost interest after about sixty pages.

I really enjoyed Cyclo, enough to write a long essay on it - but I have to say, this stuff does look like it could have spewed out by a speculative-realist random text generator:

3:am magazine said:
3:AM: Necrology (Paraphilia Books) has been referred to as a “cyberpunk katabasis beyond Burroughs or Guyotat,” but how do you see it?

Gary J. Shipley: Two freshly spliced entities – joint terminals of biocapturism – united in carnal bonds eradicating the binary presuppositions of their former corpse incarcerations, those old emotions reduced to catabolism, human tissue into gas – skin traumas shaped like the beyond of flesh.

Kenji Siratori: Just like the soul of the cadaver that fills the thin placenta of the stratosphere that is split to the human body of anonymity in the earth of before dawn.

Reza Negarestani: An undead machine imbued with the chemistry of putrefaction and nigredo.
 
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