Conceptronica

[pattycakes_]

the problem is *new* and not old developments are totally gobbled up by these empires.

Not to mention the people making the new have probably grown up reading those sites so all the aesthetics and ways of thinking are the framework and foundation of what they make. You can imagine some 19yo in say Vancouver thinking of their shantygabber remix of Kate Bush being played on the boilerroom and reviewed on RA. Wanting to tick all the boxes. Stark contrast to people making tunes based on their desire to blow people's minds in some dirty warehouse.

This is where the art school mentality reveals itself. Their idea of creativity is curation. Appealing to their anticipated audience.

 

[thirdform]

yeah i mean the thing with this is like true liberals with marxist-anarchist pretensions their politics are precisely aesthetics ignoring that mussolini's great appeal was precisely his aesthecisation to appeal to disgruntled ex-communists and liberals. eventually one has to climb down on high from the realm of philosophy and continue the study in the realm of political economy. But that's precisely why art students are more likely to read Deleuze than someone like Paul Mattick or Rosa Luxemberg. because political economy is dry, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. it's boring, it doesn't whizz and break into 40 new pieces. but delight (as opposed to claustrophobia, which none of this music captures, not even arca) is the preserve of the dilettante.

 

[thirdform]

there's also something to be said in that mille plateau wasn't trying to create a new world with the machines but expose the conceptual void of abstract labour that underpins these machines. so like alva noto is still ahead of some of this stuff, conceptually.

for instance:
i mean mille plateau's reference was rave music or technological abstraction(/dehumanisation) rather than video games and technicolour. there's nothing dehumanising about the video game, it's a ritual of capital and no longer exists for us, just like the modular human being.

i also can't accept chal raven's contension that previous academic experiments were sounds for sounds sake. maybe pierre schaeffer but can you really say that about xenakis? compositionally he made some of the most tonally varied electronic music with material referents. he was also wounded in half of his face by shrapnel fighting the british backed greek monarchical fascists but probably not trendy to mention that in todays climate of Churchill hysteria. just because the material referents have been obscured and are not identifiable, doesn't mean the computer, or tape splicer or ring modulator aren't material tools.

 

[luka]

For me it's the opposite. The exotic has been fetishized, coopted and defanged by those liberial whites ever since this new age of taste making websites came along and started doing what you mention above. Think about South African House in 2009.

Well yes, there's truth in that, and also in what third says about neophilia and the cultural currency the new commands but equally a scene like dancehall (which perhaps crucially is not new) remains gloriously immune to co-option. The local infrastructure is too embedded and resilient and the liberal metropolitan elite are too afraid.

https://shoobs.com/find-events/clubbing/bashment There are whole circuits of activity which fall outside of fact and resident advisor.

it's important not to fall into the perennial dissensus defeatist position of capitalism eats everything the moment it's born. no life is possible on this desert planet so we might as well hand it over to its new robot custodians and top ourselves. This always feels to me like a) a depressive position and b) a failure of imagination.

 

[pattycakes_]

Well this, for me, is part of what needs to be established. To what extent is that true? Has it become impossible for dance music of any kind to exist outside of that structure?

No. RA et al are to electronic music what Vice is to edgy youth culture. Content factories (aka flies on shit.) Any whiff of a slightly rearranged beat from some kid with Ableton in their nan's basement in Guam and they're business classing it over there with a team in a matter of minutes.

Well yes, there's truth in that, and also in what third says about neophilia and the cultural currency the new commands but equally a scene like dancehall (which perhaps crucially is not new) remains gloriously immune to co-option. The local infrastructure is too embedded and resilient and the liberal metropolitan elite are too afraid.

Local scenes & parties like the stuff on shoob are for people who come from those cultures. They're by nature insular. Catering to people who grew up with those sounds. Soon as I saw that site I was reminded of Fridge in Brixton on a sweaty Sunday morning. Not too many pale faces around. And that's not a criticism. It just was the way it was. Can only imagine somewhere less mixed than Brixton would be even more insular. But, as far as co-option goes, is there a geographic location more coopted than Jamaica when it comes to youth music? From jungle to major lazer. The dem bow rhythm got dragged all over the universe. Reggaeton etc. Or maybe we're talking about different things here?

It's important not to fall into the perennial dissensus defeatist position of capitalism eats everything the moment it's born. no life is possible on this desert planet so we might as well hand it over to its new robot custodians and top ourselves. This always feels to me like a) a depressive position and b) a failure of imagination.

I'm with you to a point, but isn't that kind of what blissknob's article was getting at? And isn't the palpable sense of this fatal state of affairs what fuels such heated discussion as was seen on twitter the last few days? Aren't we all just a little bit sick of things not being exciting anymore? And isn't part of it down to things getting all precious and artisanal because we're desperately grasping at anything to give our withering existences some meaning? And isn't RA and the gang a large part of the problem? I get that for the sake of a pleasant time you want to minimize the moaning, but...

 

[luka]

Yes, I would say we are talking about different things.

 

[version]

And isn't the palpable sense of this fatal state of affairs what fuels such heated discussion as was seen on twitter the last few days? Aren't we all just a little bit sick of things not being exciting anymore? And isn't part of it down to things getting all precious and artisanal because we're desperately grasping at anything to give our withering existences some meaning? And isn't RA and the gang a large part of the problem? I get that for the sake of a pleasant time you want to minimize the moaning, but...

I think that's also down to how precarious a career in music at that level is. Nobody wants to burn any bridges or rag on their mates because they're all in a pretty small pond together and reliant on remaining in that pond to earn a living. They can't really lay into Unsound or something when they're hoping to keep getting booked there.

 

[luka]

Local scenes & parties like the stuff on shoob are for people who come from those cultures. They're by nature insular.

This is my point. That it is still possible to have an inwardly looking self-sufficient scene. Not everyone is a hipster. Not all of reality has been wired through the RA switchboard. There is still diversity. Real human beings still exist.

 

[luka]

What I mean with regards to dancehall is that dancehall still caters to its original demographic. It hasn't repositioned itself for a global audience. in that sense it hasn't been coopted.

 

[version]

Not all of reality has been wired through the RA switchboard.

This is true. They're also even more selective with what they cover now, so there's actually not that much on there aside from the gig tickets.

 

[luka]

What I mean with regards to dancehall is that dancehall still caters to its original demographic. It hasn't repositioned itself for a global audience. in that sense it hasn't been coopted.

Very few people outside of that original core demographic make dancehall music. If you go to a dancehall night in London you are unlikely to trip over many art students etc etc etc

 

[muser]

Do any of these genres really get co-opted though? SA house mentioned earlier, gqom, baille, juke etc From what i can see most of the people within the scene don't even know or care apart from the few random artists that might happen on a few extra paychecks and some tours around Europe for a couple of years. Then everyone gets bored and moves on to the next thing. Whats been co-opted?

 

[muser]

Can something be co-opted if its already dead? Seems most of what people are doing is using sonic signifies of dead genres as kind of memes that can be peppered in to give people the feeling of validation in their eclecticism.

 

[luka]

Good questions. What do we even mean by co-opted anyway?

 

[version]

Do any of these genres really get co-opted though? SA house mentioned earlier, gqom, baille, juke etc From what i can see most of the people within the scene don't even know or care apart from the few random artists that might happen on a few extra paychecks and some tours around Europe for a couple of years. Then everyone gets bored and moves on to the next thing. Whats been co-opted?

Fair point.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the need to present some conceptualized complete package is part of the audio-visual arms race and far from the driving force behind the actual creative output

probably some truth in that, but it seems much a stretch to just completely handwave artists' self-stated intentions

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the difference between 'conceptual art' which doesn't necessarily require any skill or effort so at times totally relies on the concept, which is why allot of people criticize it and music which, if anyone is going to listen to it, always requires some level of skill to put together

could not more strongly disagree with this however

conceptual art absolutely does require both skill and effort

no offense, but I expect more than this extremely lazy "anyone can do it" thinking from folk around here

no, they can't. if they could've, they would've.

it's exactly the same as music. anyone can conceive of something but execution requires knowledge, skill, technique.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

anyone could have composed 4'33", painted White On White, etc

but they didn't - people with knowledge and skill and intent did

tbc it's not an argument for sole genius (it exists, tho never outside a context informing it) or against "non-artists" making art, or something

just that against the casual devaluation of conceptual art

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

It was high concept without seeking your validation

yes

it was functional. it was praxis. whereas virtually all the self-consciously conceptual dance music I've heard is almost solely theory.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Padraig always finds a way to insert some old disco record into the conversation!

disco is both the ur-text and protean ooze whence all dance music springs, so yes it will probably come up in any theoretically-laden discussion of dance music

this being dissensus, that's essentially always