Is there a major objective difference between our species and every other animal?

[Mr. Tea]

Yeah, brilliant. You're really exempt from the connotations of different words in use because you have a an MS. please.

But if you declare that anyone using words like 'primitive' and 'developed' is invariably attaching value judgements to them, even when they explicitly deny this (the same way a heretic is guilty if they confess, and guilty and lying if they don't confess...), what words are we allowed to use if we want to talk about things that are, well, primitive or developed? It's well known tall men have all sorts of social advantages over short men; does this mean we can't say "tall" and "short"? Are we going to have to revert to "vertically challenged"? Is it a bit 1992 in here, or is it me?

I would say that people in tribal, pre-urban cultures have a 'primitve' way of life because the total amount of stuff that could be written about that culture in an encyclopedia is far smaller (an information-content definition) and because it's a way of life similar to that which was usual in areas that are now 'developed' in the distant (or, in the case of America/Australia, not-so-distant) past; i.e. a historical (you might even say teleological) definition.

If we want to talk about value, it's clear that a 'primitive' way of life is far more sustainable than a developed one (in that people have lived like that more or less since humans evolved) and, arguably, their societies are far more functional that ours - it's so common as to be a cliche that the Western adventurer who visits one of the few virtually untouched tribal societies describes them as "the happiest people I've ever met". My girlfriend said this about the people she met in Borneo, for instance. So in terms of human happiness and long-term sustainability, it's 'primitives' 1 - civilisation 0.

(zhao will probably come in his pants if he sees me writing this. )

 

[nomadologist]

I don't use "developed" to talk about the first world outside of quotation marks, either.

Tall and short aren't a valid comparison, because wars have never been fought nor people slaughtered in the name of "tallness" over "shortness".

 

[Mr. Tea]

I don't use "developed" to talk about the first world outside of quotation marks, either.

Tall and short aren't a valid comparison, because wars have never been fought nor people slaughtered in the name of "tallness" over "shortness".

It's perfectly valid, because short men (on average, obviously) earn less and are less attractive to women than tall men. By any reasonable definition, they are socially discriminated against. You don't have to wage war on a group of people to discriminate against them.

Anyway, this is all by-the-by because I know I'm not using the word 'primitive' in a perjorative sense, in fact I've just outlined some of the apparent advantages of living in a primitive (as opposed to advanced) society, so as I said before, if other people want to consider the word perjorative, that's up to them.

 

[nomadologist]

I'm not talking about simple "I don't get a date" discrimination against short men (which isn't even really what I'd call "discrimination", but if you insist), I'm talking about hundreds of years of colonialization and imperialism.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I'm talking about hundreds of years of colonialization and imperialism.

Which does what - makes a word taboo? For God's sake, it's not like I've called them "heathens" or "savages", is it? I mean 'primitive' purely in the sense of living in a way comparable to the way all people lived before the rise of agriculture, urbanism and industrialism, with no nation-states, no economies (to speak of) and very little in the way of technology. If you can think of a single better word that encapsulates all that, I'd be delighted to hear it.

 

[mistersloane]

It's well known tall men have all sorts of social advantages over short men;

I dunno about that man, tell that to the one and a half billion Chinese people.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I dunno about that man, tell that to the one and a half billion Chinese people.

Well durr, it obviously means "in a given society".
I wouldn't be at all surprised if tall Chinese men have better jobs and prettier wives than short Chinese men.

Anyway, are you saying the Chinese are successfull just because there's lots of them? (I sincerely hope you are, by the way... )

 

[nomadologist]

"Pre-industrial"

I use it all the time.

 

[nomadologist]

Which does what - makes a word taboo? For God's sake, it's not like I've called them "heathens" or "savages", is it?

There's a difference between "taboo" and boorish insensitivity.

 

[nomadologist]

Anyway, are you saying the Chinese are successfull just because there's lots of them? (I sincerely hope you are, by the way... )

Don't you mean rich Chinese men have prettier wives?

God, this just keeps getting better...

 

[noel emits]

The word 'primitive' has several definite and well accepted meanings that have no negative connotations at all. I certainly don't generally interpret it as a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/primitive

 

[mistersloane]

Well durr, it obviously means "in a given society".
I wouldn't be at all surprised if tall Chinese men have better jobs and prettier wives than short Chinese men.

Anyway, are you saying the Chinese are successfull just because there's lots of them? (I sincerely hope you are, by the way... )

Nope, I'm saying there's a major objective difference between us and you white people, and it's the ability to form characters that have no reference to the sounds they represent, and that makes us superior.

 

[nomadologist]

The word 'primitive' has several definite and well accepted meanings that have no negative connotations at all. I certainly don't generally interpret it as a pejorative.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/primitive

"Of or pertaining to a former time; old-fashioned; characterized by simplicity; as, a primitive style of dress."

If nothing else, it's used with extreme condescension by people in the West when talking about, for example, Aboriginies or other tribal societies.

In America, it certainly does have negative connotations, especially because it is often used by racists who say that we "saved" black slaves from their "primitive" non-civilizations and brought them into the Christian West.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Saying you can't call primitive people primitive is like saying you can't call black people black because the word has "connotations".

I'm using the word in a purely descriptive, morally neutral sense. If you want to refract it through the prism of your own white post-colonial guilt, then that's your prerogative. Until a few hours ago we were having (I thought) a reasonably productive discussion about the evolution of language. If it's going to descend into an argument about politically correct semantics I'm afraid that doesn't really interest me much.

 

[Mr. Tea]

"Pre-industrial"

I use it all the time.

That's not the same thing at all. The feudal societies of mediaeval Europe were pre-industrial but clearly post-tribal, agricultural and (in places) urbanised.

 

[Eric]

But that's the whole point of the birdsong articles...I can find more...birdsong is made up of individual sound symbols that are like words!

No! It is not!!!!! I can't go through this again.

 

[Eric]

You're not attaching a "value judgment" with the word "primitive"? How exactly is that possible?

When talking about parts of the brain, primitive is a standard term. Lacking others, we may use this one without value judgements. Any such judgements that you introduce are just that, yours.

Do you have a better term?

(edit: note that the original use of `primitive' was in this context, before this discussion went haywire)

 

[Eric]

I don't use "developed" to talk about the first world outside of quotation marks, either.

Tall and short aren't a valid comparison, because wars have never been fought nor people slaughtered in the name of "tallness" over "shortness".

mad red herrings flying here

 

[Eric]

Well durr, it obviously means "in a given society".
I wouldn't be at all surprised if tall Chinese men have better jobs and prettier wives than short Chinese men.
))

They do (?). Bald assertion without any backup.

But it is known for sure that Chinese women under a certain height cannot be hired as stewardesses on state-run airlines. This is a fact!!!

 

[Mr. Tea]

They do (?). Bald assertion without any backup.

But it is known for sure that Chinese women under a certain height cannot be hired as stewardesses on state-run airlines. This is a fact!!!

Yes, it's a bald assertion, and could be complete rubbish - but the thing about tall vs. short men is a well established fact within Western culture, so on this point it's irrelevant how well one country does against another.

Also, it's a FACT that people below a certain height can't pick things up from high shelves. Fancy that!