mixed_biscuits

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Well yes, Jung would say that, and I agree with him. Every individual has masculine, feminine and gender-neutral traits. They just choose to identify as a particular gender, and we should respect them and accept their gender identification. But I never said my femininity undermines my status as a male, quite the opposite: I identified as a feminine male, A man who persists as a man despite his feminine qualities. So I don't know what your point is here.
You don't get it: in making this distinction you are denying the full scope of being a man. Also, you just said that you don't respect all gender identifications because you are a biological essentialist when it comes to species...make up your mind on whether you are using biology or not.
 

mixed_biscuits

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No I don't because you do have to be born a member of a particular ethnicity. Gender identity categories differ from other identity categories, e.g. ethnicities, and my claims about gender apply only to gender, not to race or ethnicity.
OK, imagine that a cultural theorist creates a binary equivalent to sex/gender: ethnicity/expressed ethnicity. If a black person felt their expressed ethnicity were white you would have to treat them as if they were white to follow the same logic that you presented on gender.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Gender is a concept that is inextricably parasitic on biological sex. If you try to disentangle it from sex, then it has no criterion for existence and vanishes, hence the logical final step in the secular extreme trans activist argument being the dissolution of gender per se concomitant with the deprecation of biological sex. If you remove gender, sex remains; if you remove sex, gender vanishes.

Gender and sex are independent in that sex doesn't determine gender. You're confusing sex with the human body in general. Really, sex and gender are just two different interpretations of the same human body. Behavior defines gender and anatomy defines sex. As long as a human body can behave, it can have a gender. Behavior depends on anatomy for its existence, yes, but only because I can't perform behaviors if I lack an anatomy. But anatomy doesn't determine behavior. If a woman limps her wrist, she does so because she chooses to or others taught her to do so. She doesn't do so because of the anatomy of her arm, at least as far as we know. Any sort of knowledge claim about her anatomy determining her limp wrist requires experimental evidence. If we want a biological explanation for this social gendered behavior, we need to do some particular experiment. But such an experiment not only presupposes our social, cultural, non-scientific understanding of gender, but also can only provide rational support for particular claims about the phenomenon the experiment studied. Particular experiments don't warrant the broad, sweeping generalizations you defend here. For that, we need an overwhelmingly large amount of experimental access that you lack access to We don't need to study biology to understand the social meaning of a gendered quality, e.g. a limp wrist.

you have no right to take issue with anyone who disagrees with your practice given its arbitrary and ultimately meaningless foundations

Our unconditional respect for the intrinsic value of humanity is far from an arbitrary and meaningless foundation for my recognition of people as members of the gender they identify as!

In this case you would be a transphobe by your own lights because the exception you're trying to make doesn't work.
Why not? Gender identity categories apply only to humans.

...unless they're wrong about it, which you said is entirely possible.
Nope! Even if they get their own identity wrong, only they themselves can be right or wrong about their identity. We only know they got their old gender wrong because they know their current gender is the right one, at least as of now. No one else but me knows what my gender is.

The other problem is that you say that you're an anti-essentialist while deriving an essence from their identification...this makes you even more of an essentialist because you're insisting on essences that are obscured; you're an obscurantist essentialist.
Again, you're confusing essence and definition. Identification is non-essential since it can change. An essentialist definition of a gender defines all members of a gender by the same quality that can never change. While all members of a gender must share the common property of identifying as this gender, that just means that all members of this gender share a non-essential definitive quality, because gender categories are non-essential, so no two people need mean the same thing when they identify as, for example, a women. Any two women can identify as women for entirely different reasons, and based on entirely different womanly qualities. So gender identification partially defines gender, but gender still lacks any essence.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
You don't get it: in making this distinction you are denying the full scope of being a man.

Why should I affirm the full scope of manhood?

Also, you just said that you don't respect all gender identifications because you are a biological essentialist when it comes to species
I do respect all gender identifications. I am a biological non-essentialist about species, just like Darwin and virtually all biologists after him.
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
OK, imagine that a cultural theorist creates a binary equivalent to sex/gender: ethnicity/expressed ethnicity. If a black person felt their expressed ethnicity were white you would have to treat them as if they were white to follow the same logic that you presented on gender.
I see no reason why I should accept this concept of expressed gender. Nor do I see why I should accept conceivability arguments or thought experiments when they almost never bear empirical relevance to the actual world
 

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
If you're species-agnostic then you shouldn't be a phobe to otherkin.
I never said I was species-agnostic. I believe that biological species exist, I just believe a biological species is historical and revisable. Most scientists share this opinion and they certainly don't support otherkin!
You only accept masculinity in its sparest, least enlightened form. Anything that isn't full on Andrew Tate you consider to be other-than-masculine
Not really dude. I accept non-toxic, non-traditional masculinity. I don't even have a problem with masculinity, I just criticize masculine culture's repression, devaluation and under-representation of femininity.
This is not true: animals have sexed anatomy and gendered behaviour, to use your distinction. Also: WE ARE ANIMALS!!

Give an example of gendered behavior in non-human animals. It also doesn't matter that we are animals, non-human animals don't have societies and gender is a irreducibly social category.

If gender is behaviour, a trained psychologist observing your behaviour may know more about your gender than you do
Incorrect. A psychologist only studies the facts about my behavior. He still can't tell me what my gender is, because only I can know that. My gender identity is a mattter of authenticity, not truth or facts. I identify as, say, a man, because I feel like a man, I have a deeply felt intuition that I am a man. No one else can tell me what my gender is, not even a scientist, because only a feeling accessible to me alone can tell me what my gender is. My behavior defines my gender, but my specific gender identification depends on a feeling of mine, a feeling that I am the gender I identify as and act like. I only act like a man because I feel like a man, but no one but me knows how my manliness feels to me, how I experience my manhood.
 

mixed_biscuits

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I never said I was species-agnostic. I believe that biological species exist, I just believe a biological species is historical and revisable. Most scientists share this opinion and they certainly don't support otherkin!
You have a very selective view of science. The FACT is that some people KNOW that they are trapped in the wrong species' body and you're flat out denying this in a way that, y'know, comes across as hugely reactionary and conservative.

FACT is that the University of Virginia have strong evidence for reincarnation from other species into a human body. Sure, it's not very common but that's called a 'minority' and minorities are the most vulnerable members of our community.
 

mixed_biscuits

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I see no reason why I should accept this concept of expressed gender. Nor do I see why I should accept conceivability arguments or thought experiments when they almost never bear empirical relevance to the actual world
Are you denying that there are associations between what you - in classical far-right style - consider empirically embedded ethnicity and ethnic cultural expression. The ethnic sociological manifestation goes beyond any 'blood and soil' fixedness.

The principle to sex expression is exactly the same to that of ethnicity expression and defending yourself by pretending that it's unimportant because it isn't in widespread use would work as an excuse to abandon lots of your other views. It won't be long before a progressivism recognises this equivalence at which time your current comments will look a bit silly.
 

mixed_biscuits

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@malelesbian

'Just this week a client sat in my office in tears, wanting my help to get to the bottom of her lifelong self-consciousness about her looks. She'd spent a fortune on plastic surgeons, tanning salons, tinted contact lenses, and hair colorists, and she still considered her natural, petite, blonde-haired, blue-eyed beauty "a bad joke, like I'm walking around in some total stranger's body." I did regressive hypnosis on her, fully expecting to find some prominent persona from a past life interfering with her ability to be comfortable with herself. Instead, we discovered that on The Other Side, she is a very tall, very elegant black woman with the regal features of African royalty, and it was that visage she kept looking for and trying to duplicate in this current incarnation.'

- Sylvia Browne, 2000

It takes some chutzpah to lend credence to other feelings of mismatch but not this one. Do you consider the client to be hopelessly deluded? Is the otherwise faithful process of self-knowing malfunctioning now?
 

mixed_biscuits

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Give an example of gendered behavior in non-human animals. It also doesn't matter that we are animals, non-human animals don't have societies and gender is a irreducibly social category.
Gender is the behaviours associated with the sexes. Animals DO have societies, some of which are notably better integrated than human societies. Animals can have culture with different practices found in distinct groups and with practices also transmitted through learning.

I think this is another one of your conservative tacks: that humans are qualitatively different, a religious mainstay.
 

mixed_biscuits

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Incorrect. A psychologist only studies the facts about my behavior. He still can't tell me what my gender is, because only I can know that. My gender identity is a mattter of authenticity, not truth or facts. I identify as, say, a man, because I feel like a man, I have a deeply felt intuition that I am a man. No one else can tell me what my gender is, not even a scientist, because only a feeling accessible to me alone can tell me what my gender is. My behavior defines my gender, but my specific gender identification depends on a feeling of mine, a feeling that I am the gender I identify as and act like. I only act like a man because I feel like a man, but no one but me knows how my manliness feels to me, how I experience my manhood.
If gender can only be perceived internally on an individual basis, with what are you comparing your internal impressions?

You also have a very anaemic model of the psyche: you use exclusively your conscious 'awareness' and disregard the subconscious; this precludes someone experiencing angst because of a mismatch between the two, with the subconscious potentially having a truer awareness of the most fruitful way that you, as a whole, could identify. I would say that this conflict is accepted in the case of repressed sexual orientation for instance. A corollary is that one's conscious identification can actually be incorrect just as someone may be incorrect in assuming themselves to be exclusively heterosexually oriented.
 

mixed_biscuits

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I just visit the thread to see if anyone else has anything to say. Once biscuits linked Alex Byrne and Helen Joyce as "evidence", what little interest I had in their argument dissipated completely.
What makes it easy for you is that Alex Byrne's book is an academic text and so, if there's anything incorrect, it will be taken up in the literature. Are there any published papers to that effect?

I know that you're loath to decolonise but if you hadn't noticed I had said that a dualist framework causes significant damage to both of those thinkers' claims; because of that I am in a better position to oppose them than you or malelesbian are.
 
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