Nick Land and Neocameralism

Trump's usage of the term doesn't bother me. He's trying to weaponise it, to use it to dig himself out of his latest slide into the mud. I mean something quite different when I use the term. For one thing, ideology aside, there literally is an alternative left now - Momentumn etc and the various online news media that support Corbyn and are critical of the Labour centre. I'm not as familiar with the US left but I assume Bernie Sanders supporters occupy a similar kind of space in relation to the Democratic party.

And with regard to the specifc terms, altLeft / altRight - they're about drawing attention to similarities of thought in two camps one might on the surface assume are opposed. We've been living through a series of political upsets caused by "alt narratives" with Trump, Brexit and to a lesser degree, Corbyn. What are the similarities between these respective camps? Are there any? Why have they all been so successful? "Alt left" is a shorthand that draws attention to these events and their similarities.

Trump didnt invent the term. Its been pushed by the right and their liberal patsies in an attempt to reduce the narrative to a 'each side is as bad as the other' paradigm.

And with regard to the specifc terms, altLeft / altRight - they're about drawing attention to similarities of thought in two camps one might on the surface assume are opposed. We've been living through a series of political upsets caused by "alt narratives" with Trump, Brexit and to a lesser degree, Corbyn. What are the similarities between these respective camps? Are there any? Why have they all been so successful? "Alt left" is a shorthand that draws attention to these events and their similarities.

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Precisely. Its an attempt to draw a equivalence between neo-nazi scumbags, racists and fascists who peddle in hate, bigotry, race war and violence and people who want a more equal and better society - and youre doing exactly the same thing here.

droid said:

Precisely. Its an attempt to draw a equivalence between neo-nazi scumbags, racists and fascists who peddle in hate, bigotry, race war and violence and people who want a more equal and better society - and youre doing exactly the same thing here.

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Oh don't be fucking ridiculous. No he isn't. If you've read anything Dan has posted here over the last couple of years, you'll know he has personal experience with white "leftists" who hold Syria Solidarity events that are openly propagandizing for the Assad regime and shout down actual Syrians who dare to voice their own opinions and experiences. In the USA you've got the Putin-approved Jill Stein's enabling of Trump's victory and disenchanted Bernie fans who refused to vote or even switched to Trump just to spite Clinton (a position endorsed by Pilger). I'm pretty sure that's the sort of thing Dan means by 'alt left'.

You've fairly described what Trump is doing, but to smear Dan in the same way is pretty fucking low. I'm sure he's capable of defending himself but I can't let crap like that stand.

Edit: sorry Dan, I didn't mean the Syria Solidarity group per se, more the StW types whose solidarity is not with Syrians at all but with their vile president and government. Or maybe I'd heard of the US group with the same name.

Cheers, Tea. Yeah, that's part of what I mean -though the Syria Solidarity people are good people as far as I'm concerned (though there is a US group of the same name who support Assad - "it's complicated"). It's the Stop the War people who shouted down Syrians. You are spot on about Pilger, Stein and others.

I'm sure that StW people think that they are working towards "a more equal and better society" though they do this by focusing exclusively the evils of the USA and UK to such an extent that they are blind to greater atrocities committed by others and seem to inhabit an insane mirror world from where I'm standing. Droid, I have had someone shout in my face at full volume "PUTIN IS SAVING SYRIA" at the height of the Russian campaign bombing Aleppo. I'd lump him in with the alt-left. Read the comment under the article I posted above for another example. Another "anti-globalist" railing against an imaginary regime change war that isn't happening.

In more general terms, I was trying to draw attention the tend towards conspiratorial thinking and paranoia which are present at times in the groups I've mentioned. This is a good example of what I'm talking about: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rbyn-very-british-coup-establishment-backlash Very surprised to see this from Owen Jones, who normally seems much more reality based.

I'm not trying to say that conspiracy and paranoia are the only things that characterise Corbyn supporters. I can recognise that the people who support him want a better world. But I think something interesting happens with the fevered passions injustice invokes. if you characterise your enemies as thoroughly evil, and are kneejerk hostile towards media that don't agree with you, you can became a vector for some very odd ideas. To shift the subject from international politics, a lot of the dialogue about a cover up around Grenfell seems to me of this ilk.

it's fascinating to me that people reach for conspiracy, false flag, cover up as explanations almost as a first port of call these days. I don't know that this is alt-left as such as much as the news media people consume, the internet making everyone an expert with a platform, widespread disenchantment with conventional politics etc but it's part of the same continuum.

You should take a good long look at what your doing Danny. Youre buying into the propaganda of the right and using their language to 'lump together' a massive, diverse group of people into a fantastical new category, created purely to demonise the left in its entirety and draw false equivalence with fascists, and worse, youre doing this all on the basis of a single issue.

This is a slippery slope.

This is a relatively pure example of what I mean by alt-left. It was left under the article I posted a link to above.

“They are absolutely and unequivocally correct!!!
Assad has done NOTHING wrong.
Replacing Qaddafi WAS a fucking mistake.
Globalism is a pretty term to excuse the rampaging greed-driven imperialistic warmongering of the few against the many and must end now.
The Syrian Arab Army is fighting FOR the people of Syria, not against them, and deserves the support of all humanity in their efforts to quash terrorism -NOT a moderate rebellion.

They are NOT conspiracy theories, as you so dismissively state. You are clearly blinded by the warped mainstream media hogwash that inundates like effluent from a backed up sewer.

Furthermore, it is absurd and outrageous to suggest such opinions are founded on islamophobic precepts. Your arguments are flawed and baseless, including the groundless and to this day unsubstantiated rubbish regarding supposed chemical attacks, and they perpetuate misunderstanding and support of the coalition’s continuing WAR CRIMES.

This, along with your condemnation of both Russian and Iranian involvement makes it abundantly clear that you are very obviously a Zionist supporter and thus quite understandably deluded. Apparently, you are British which further explains a lot. Likely you support those bastards the white helmets, too. Your grandstanding is offensive and destructive and anyone who stands against it should be praised and encouraged.”

Do you see anything to defend here, Droid?

droid said:

You should take a good long look at what your doing Danny. Youre buying into the propaganda of the right and using their language to 'lump together' a massive, diverse group of people into a fantastical new category, created purely to demonise the left in its entirety and draw false equivalence with fascists, and worse, youre doing this all on the basis of a single issue.

This is a slippery slope.

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Like I said, I don't see everyone who wants to turn out and vote for Corbyn, Bernie or whoever as part of this. I can recognise they have diverse bases with good intentions. Having said that a lot of the thinking and dialogue I can come across fairly easily and regularly, gives me pause.

I'm not doing it on the basis of a single issue. I've used the conspiratorial thinking present in one area to start talking about similar thinking in others - Grenfell, Owen Jones's latest etc. It's hard not to see similarities.

Your political compass is aligned entirely around Syria. You commented on a post about neo-nazis and anti fascists to denounce the 'alt-left' on the basis of that issue. Your examples are almost entirely based around STW types which long predate the concept of the alt-left to begin with.

All Im saying is that you should be very careful about buying into this terminology. Another few steps and you'll be calling me a cuck.

No chance of that. I did think about calling you "Dad" because of your habit of giving solemn warnings but decided against it.

Again, my first point is that you can clearly and easily find conspiratorial thinking on the Left. Jones's piece, and a lot of commentary on a cover-up at Grenfell are my examples. My second point is that this shades into what I'd call full on alt-left thinking and that there isn't a lot of difference between the more extreme leftist positions and the thinking of extreme right.

I don't see what's so conspiratorial about the Owen Jones article, having skimmed it. The massive backlash when Corbyn even became party leader (with apparently zero hope of anything but abject failure) was so out of proportion that a huge reaction if he becomes PM is all but inevitable.

Clearly a left-wing government with pretensions to a fairer society and undermining the relentless accumulation of profits, will be a direct threat to many rich people's interests, clearly seen through much of the UK media's fanatical campaign against Corbyn. There has been no economically left wing government in the UK in the neoliberal era - of course there would be serious pushback. Left-wing social development as per the Blair era can be acceptable, but not in the economic sphere.

Every recent government around the world perceived as 'unacceptably' left wing (granted, there haven 't been many) has come under attack from vested financial and other interests, so why wouldn't Corbyn's? My guess is that it will all be rather more prosaic, with the govt's ambitions slowly being scaled back against stubborn resistance, until it becomes a government of altogether more moderate change, having to quietly drop some of its signature policies.

Which is of course not to say that some people on the Left don't cleave to conspiracies. Of course they do. But in this case the reality has been pretty outlandish, and will become even more so should Corbyn be PM (though latest poll shows the Tories back ahead 42-39, which is a true wtf moment given the Brexit shambles let alone anything else)

DannyL said:

This is a relatively pure example of what I mean by alt-left. It was left under the article I posted a link to above.

“They are absolutely and unequivocally correct!!!
Assad has done NOTHING wrong.
Replacing Qaddafi WAS a fucking mistake.
Globalism is a pretty term to excuse the rampaging greed-driven imperialistic warmongering of the few against the many and must end now.
The Syrian Arab Army is fighting FOR the people of Syria, not against them, and deserves the support of all humanity in their efforts to quash terrorism -NOT a moderate rebellion.

They are NOT conspiracy theories, as you so dismissively state. You are clearly blinded by the warped mainstream media hogwash that inundates like effluent from a backed up sewer.

Furthermore, it is absurd and outrageous to suggest such opinions are founded on islamophobic precepts. Your arguments are flawed and baseless, including the groundless and to this day unsubstantiated rubbish regarding supposed chemical attacks, and they perpetuate misunderstanding and support of the coalition’s continuing WAR CRIMES.

This, along with your condemnation of both Russian and Iranian involvement makes it abundantly clear that you are very obviously a Zionist supporter and thus quite understandably deluded. Apparently, you are British which further explains a lot. Likely you support those bastards the white helmets, too. Your grandstanding is offensive and destructive and anyone who stands against it should be praised and encouraged.”

Do you see anything to defend here, Droid?

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That's pretty much how certain factions - and I'd say this isn't a minority stance on the (far) left - thinks in 2017 throughout the "West". In fact, it's pretty much the dogma of Germany's "Die Linke" party.

And it's of course known (to those who care to look a little deeper) that certain factions of the right and the left always had overlappings, and have them again these days.

You got all the buzzwords here which resonate within some right wingers and some left wingers alike:

*Assad the Hero
*Ousting Gaddafi was a mistake/another incident of "Western imperialism"
*"Globalism" (granted, certain leftists say this is another example of western imperialism, usually meaning "American imperialism" - while right wingers believe "Globalism" is some commie-covert operation to exterminate the "white race")
*MainstreamMedia
*Zionism*
*Putin as another hero/"Anti-Imperialist"

DannyL said:

No chance of that. I did think about calling you "Dad" because of your habit of giving solemn warnings but decided against it.

Again, my first point is that you can clearly and easily find conspiratorial thinking on the Left. Jones's piece, and a lot of commentary on a cover-up at Grenfell are my examples. My second point is that this shades into what I'd call full on alt-left thinking and that there isn't a lot of difference between the more extreme leftist positions and the thinking of extreme right.

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Conspiratorial thinking is nothing new. The question remains why you are using a right wing propoganda term to describe people on the left even when you (apparently) ascribe a different definition than that used by the right.

The reason Im lecturing you on this is because language is important. You presumably want to persuade people that your stance on Syria is correct. Most of the people you want to persuade are on the left. Therefore I would suggest that using a term designed to smear the left to describe the left is, at best, counter productive.

BTW, youre grounded.

DannyL said:

Standing up to fascism isn't "alt left" in my view. This sort of bullshit is: https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/30/people-tearing-bbc-alarming-decision-just-made-video/ You might describe is as a weakness of conspiracy theories, a post-truth aversion to facts (i.e various Corbynites I argued with who were convinced Corbyn was pro-EU) and tacit or overt support for fascism and imperialism as long as its not being carried out by the USA.

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I think the problem with this approach is that "alt-left" is now being used in common parlance as a synonym for antifa via Trump. And possibly as a synonym for Corbynistas and the trade union movement in the UK via Nick Cohen. It is pretty obvious what their agenda is - and they have a wide reach.

So whilst I completely agree that there is vile conspiracy mongering in parts of the left, I don't think "alt-left" is useful term for it because it will mainly be understood in a different way. It is far better to call these people/groups left- conspiracy theorists.

It is completely correct that conspiracy theorists, Assad supporters, anti-semites etc should be attacked. But it seems unhelpful to do that by using a term which is also being used to delegitimise the left in general ("the alt right and the alt left are the same") and anti-fascism specifically.

firefinga said:

*Assad the Hero
*Ousting Gaddafi was a mistake/another incident of "Western imperialism"
*"Globalism" (granted, certain leftists say this is another example of western imperialism, usually meaning "American imperialism" - while right wingers believe "Globalism" is some commie-covert operation to exterminate the "white race")
*MainstreamMedia
*Zionism*
*Putin as another hero/"Anti-Imperialist"

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Nearly all of these issues are critiqued from completely different points of view, with completely different motivations. Lumping them all together to ascribe commonality is catastrophically lazy.

You may as well add climate change in there as well. Its a concern for both sides too. The left sees it as an existential threat to the future of humanity which can be addressed through structural changes to economic systems. Whereas the right sees it as a conspiracy to stop them destroying the biosphere through gratutious hyper consumption - but hey, its an issue that both are concerned with so that means that left = right.

baboon2004 said:

Left-wing social development as per the Blair era can be acceptable, but not in the economic sphere.

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This is an absolutely crucial sentence. That's the important point with Corbyn: that he brought back leftist politics into the economic sphere. Leftist meaning here stopping to praise supply side economics and demand something left wing extrimist as re-nationalised railways.

Oh, sweet irony:

droid said:

[My] political compass is aligned entirely around [Iraq].

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Do you have even the slightest spark of self-awareness?

Dan has gone to some lengths in the last few pages to define his terms and to distinguish between legitimate progressive anti-imperialism and the tendency towards bigotry and authoritarianism among some people on the fringes of the left, and you're practically calling him a Trumpist.

Edit: the term may have been promulgated initially by conservative pundits in the USA but it's also been used by the likes of BuzzFeed to describe hard-left news and opinion websites that, whatever you think of their politics, undeniably share something in common with the alt-right in terms of their tendency towards conspiracy theories, disregard for factual accuracy and contempt for the liberal-democratic consensus.

john eden said:

So whilst I completely agree that there is vile conspiracy mongering in parts of the left, I don't think "alt-left" is useful term for it because it will mainly be understood in a different way. It is far better to call these people/groups left- conspiracy theorists.

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Agreed, makes perfect sense. 'Alt-right' is a rebranding exercise of the right, and 'alt-left' is a part of that marketing exercise.